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Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 9:19:06 AM

Aneirin

Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
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Yes, in a world where we apparently ' care ' about people and like to right all wrongs, why is this being allowed to continue;

http://www.sparrowdancer.org/

True, perhaps I should FullCircle,

quote:

You should maybe warn people about the graphic images in that link.

People be warned , graphic images in this link.

< Message edited by Aneirin -- 6/7/2008 9:37:56 AM >

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

Post #: 1

RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 9:27:13 AM

FullCircle

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You should maybe warn people about the graphic images in that link.

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∞ ﮒuקּƹɼ ƾɛϰưϫԼ Ƨωιϯϲћ.

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 2

RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 9:43:05 AM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

If outside powerful forces had not interfered in the past like you propose in the future, that fight would have been over and settled. There would have been, in my opinion, many fewer deaths.

Only the people of the region can settle this... there is no one noble or evil side...They are both wrong...and right. Each has claim to he region in ancient history in one time period or another… the Israeli’s the oldest and Palestine’s the newest…both are right.

If they can’t settle with talk then they MUST settle it with arms…but it can’t be settled by propaganda and interference from the outside. That will only result in more innocents on both sides perishing needlessly.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/7/2008 9:46:19 AM >

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 3

RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 10:02:52 AM

Aneirin

Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
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Bows and arrows against the lightening comes to mind, state of the art weaponry against homemade weaponry, hardly a contest. But the best weapon is the camera and there the media who have the ability to let others who care, see the truth for themselves.

In the past, Istanbul used to be the place where East and West met, but now it is proving to be the Israel/ Palestine border, the 'Holy Lands', a place where Christianity was born and later Islam, two sides constantly waring, but it is not about religion, but land and resources, original inhabitants versus incoming settlers, perhaps the same as what happened in the US's formative years. Have you noticed people when oppressed turn to religion and religion often becomes the scapegoat.

But in our modern society of mass eduction via media, this has gone on too long and what balance can be achieved, should be done on a more equal footing.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 4

RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 10:07:20 AM

DomAviator

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Because the Palestinians arent too fucking smart and have a nasty habit of throwing rocks and bottles at heavily armed Isreali soldiers with tanks and attack helicopters and of lobbing rockets into Isreal. The IDF then returns fire and the palestinians get themselves hurt. As I've said many times - war is about killing people and breaking shit, whoever kills the most people and breaks the most shit fastest wins, and that would be the Isrealis....

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 5

RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 10:14:27 AM

Alumbrado

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quote:

...war is about killing people and breaking shit, whoever kills the most people and breaks the most shit fastest wins,

Unless the other side cheats, like that little bald guy in India...

(in reply to DomAviator)

Post #: 6

RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 10:33:38 AM

Aneirin

Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

Because the Palestinians arent too fucking smart and have a nasty habit of throwing rocks and bottles at heavily armed Isreali soldiers with tanks and attack helicopters and of lobbing rockets into Isreal. The IDF then returns fire and the palestinians get themselves hurt. As I've said many times - war is about killing people and breaking shit, whoever kills the most people and breaks the most shit fastest wins, and that would be the Isrealis....

Really ?

What would you do if your town was invaded by an armed force complete with demolition equiptment, lie down and accept the inevitable or fight back in whatever way you can ?

Would the Israelis be so heavily armed if they had to rely on their own commerce to buy such weaponry ?

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to DomAviator)

Post #: 7

RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 10:47:49 AM

kdsub

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Joined: 8/16/2007
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If people like you had stayed out of it in 1948 we would not be where we are today... There were the same pictures of bloody and stacked dead Jews then as Palestinians today...and lets not forget the body parts blown to pieces in Israel...why don't you post a few pics of those.

Stay out of their business and let them settle it... If not for the US and Russia..Iran and Syria it would be over and those people would be living in peace.

I don't mean the above statement in a mean way...I understand you want to stop the suffering..I do too...

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 6/7/2008 10:51:07 AM >

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 8

RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 10:56:21 AM

Irishknight

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

What would you do if your town was invaded by an armed force complete with demolition equiptment, lie down and accept the inevitable or fight back in whatever way you can ?

My recommendation is to move out of the way. Regroup somewhere else, get bigger guns than the other guys and go back and kick their asses.

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 9

RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 10:59:05 AM

DomAviator

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Joined: 4/22/2008
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I would fight back, but I would pick my battles and do it in a manner that has some survivability. (Classic example, the French Resistance of WW2 who would go out at night and blow up rail road bridges, report troop movements and targets of value to allied personell etc...) I most certainly would not stand in a mob throwing rocks at tanks as the Palestinians do.

True story, in the 1991 Gulf war we could "engage any target engaging us with ground fire, including small arms fire". Some fucking peasant was taking potshots at us, presumably with an AK, To actually do us any harm would have required a lucky shot - hit a critical cable bundle or hydraulic line, myself or the BN etc... Nonetheless, he picked a fight he couldnt win and for his troubles he got a 500 pounder dropped on his house. So hes dead, whoever was in the house - perhaps his whole extended family including 4 wives and 32 kids are dead, several of his neigbors are dead - essentially anyone within the blast radius of a 500 pound bomb got it... Why? Because some asshole had to be a hero and to piss into the wind by engaging a superior force while under armed for the job at hand...

The palestinians can learn from that. Dont piss off the IDF, they get cranky... As soon as one of the rocks they throw pisses someone off enough to give them an excuse under the rules of engagement people are gonna die. Generally, it will be tjhe people with the rocks not the tanks.

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 10

RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 11:06:20 AM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
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They have learned...which is why they are switching from direct confrontation as a tactic to terrorism...turning public opinion toward their cause is worth a squadron of fighters..and cheaper too.

And we have all seen how effectively estalished military strategies are at dealing with irregulars and suicide bombers...they only make the terrorist's propaganda for them by responding as you suggest.

And that is just one of many reasons to get the hell off the slippery slope as soon as possible.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 6/7/2008 11:07:12 AM >

(in reply to DomAviator)

Post #: 11

RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 11:07:48 AM

Irishknight

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I bet the Nazi's called the french resistance "terrorists" or something very similar. Just an odd thought.

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 12

RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 11:09:11 AM

Aneirin

Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
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Remember something, the ills my country has caused around the world in it's past, were nothing to do with me, or the vast majority of my country. Nowhere can I detect in my family history at any point where my family has directly or indirectly beneffitted from the conquests of the ruling elite. I can however detect many instances where members of my family have died for the wants of the elite.

Where did the Palestinian problem arise, well I understand it was when Britain went to Palestine and removed a large part of the indigenous population and called the area Israel, for those people who wished to reclaim centuries past claims to the country, a country where perhaps their ancestors had emigrated from in the first place, or at least the religous belief they held..

As to keeping out of another countries affairs, perhaps yes, we should ALL adopt that attitude and let them get on with it, but as has always been wealthier countries have always interferred in the politics of others and will always do so. And guess what, it is not the elite that spill blood on foreign shores, but the common or garden citizens like you and me.

It does occur, that if the west, namely Britain and the US, sometimes parts of Europe stopped meddling in the middle east, in ways of pledging billions of whatever currency to a certain cause, balance in that region would eventually come and as a result, maybe our soldiers might not be dying abroad and our cities being terrorised.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 13

RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 11:17:18 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

This site seems to be being written by someone with an extraordinarily bad grasp of history and reality.

There was violence by both sides before 1948. Both sides got nation states in 1948. The leaders of what would be Palestine though they could grab the whole area and asked their arab neighbors for help. The arabs got their rear ends handed to them. Then those same arab nations occupied what areas of Palestine remained under their control and annexed those territories into their states, Transjordan and Egypt primarily. What began as legitimate displaced persons camps, mostly not expelled from Israel but those who ran and refused to return under jewish rule, became permanent as propoganda pieces for the arab states. If the nations involved gave a damn about the palestinian arabs that live in the camps they would have been closed down and those people integrated into egyptian and jordanian society.

Since then the arabs states have attacked Israel over and over again and lost every time. The palestinian arabs are unfortunately caught in the middle but are ill served by their choice of leaders and their use of attacks against civilians and their military actions from inside civilian communities.

Israeli peace inititives aimed at giving the palestinian arabs a nation or at least an autonomous zone inside Israel has been met by lies and attacks. At this point with an incredibly hostile criminal gang in charge in Gaza no good option except renewed occupation seems to exist.

(in reply to Irishknight)

Post #: 14

RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 11:20:36 AM

DomAviator

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

I bet the Nazi's called the french resistance "terrorists" or something very similar. Just an odd thought.

In fact they did. They also called the Jews "terrorists" hence the whole burning of the Reichstag by a "jewish communist terrorist" thing, which hitler used to ascend to power. President Hindenburg had a terrorist problem and an upset and frightened public and ol smiling Adolph was the answer to the publics prayers...

Another great terrorist of history was William Wallace aka Braveheart. He was obviously much beloved by the english, esp after he sacked York. One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

However, that doesnt alter the fact that if you are going to engage - do it in an intelligent and survivable manner not by forming an angry mob hurling rocks at heavily armed troops... The 80's movie Red Dawn was a good example of this, those kids did the right thing but if they behaved like Palestinians they wouldnt have made it out of the highschool parking lot.

I have no sympathy for people who end up dead because they are stupid hotheads. I dont pity the collateral damage or the kids either... I was a parent as my ex-wife had two kids. I sure as fuck wouldnt stand there admist a rock throwing mob with them. My responsibility as a parent would be to get them the fuck out of harms way by realizing this is about to end badly and that "allah" is not going to reach down and by divine intervention enable 200 pissed off rock throwers in the midst of a temper tantrum to defeat an armored column and an infantry brigade... LOL

(in reply to Irishknight)

Post #: 15

RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 11:21:50 AM

Irishknight

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I was disagreeing with ya DA. I just had that odd thought go through my head.

(in reply to DomAviator)

Post #: 16

RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 11:30:03 AM

celticlord2112

Posts: 5732
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quote:

What would you do if your town was invaded by an armed force complete with demolition equiptment, lie down and accept the inevitable or fight back in whatever way you can ?

Well, if I didn't want boatloads of civilian casualties, I wouldn't hide among the women and children. Which is exactly what Hamas does.

The technical term for that is cowardice. It doesn't impress.

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Post #: 17

RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 11:30:26 AM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

It does occur, that if the west, namely Britain and the US, sometimes parts of Europe stopped meddling in the middle east, in ways of pledging billions of whatever currency to a certain cause, balance in that region would eventually come and as a result, maybe our soldiers might not be dying abroad and our cities being terrorised.

On the above we agree...our problem was we interfered not because we thought either side was right or wrong...but because we thought it necessary to counter the Soviets influence in region...Now we think it necessary to counter Iran and Syria’s influence.

I think Carter had it right even though he was ineffectual...and that was to support, or not to support, a country or group based on what we thought was morally right. Not on how it will affect our energy supplies or economic standing. We would still be wrong on occasion but our intentions would never be construed to only self-interest.

Butch

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 18

RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 11:31:28 AM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

quote:

Where did the Palestinian problem arise, well I understand it was when Britain went to Palestine and removed a large part of the indigenous population and called the area Israel, for those people who wished to reclaim centuries past claims to the country, a country where perhaps their ancestors had emigrated from in the first place, or at least the religous belief they held..

Your understanding is rather narrowly focused.

(in reply to Irishknight)

Post #: 19

RE: Why is this allowed ? - 6/7/2008 11:33:22 AM

Aneirin

Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline

Probably, Mary Sparrowdancer is another from a race of people who has suffered much the same as what is happening in Israel/Palestine, perhaps she sees what she sees based upon her ancestries past, but either way, facts are facts and for someone to bring truth out into the open is a good thing in that it encourages discussion based on fact, not politically correct fact.

The leaders in Palestine are actually democratically elected by the people, that at least has to bear some weight. It is not their fault that the west don't like it, perhaps it is the west's attitude that a country can only exist if the west likes it, or rather can manipulate it.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 20

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