More musings on the male submissive.

More musings on the male submissive. (Full Version)

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DominantJenny -> More musings on the male submissive. (6/7/2008 3:45:37 PM)
So I was discussing this with (okay, mostly talking at :P) my guy this afternoon, and want to put what I can remember of what I said down here as discussion fodder. I admit that I have rarely thought specifically about the F/m dynamic in terms of gender. I'm generally the sort of person who throws most ideas of what constitutes gender out the window...not in the least because I have quite a few "masculine" traits myself, while being very, very much female. At the same time, I'm bisexual, and what attracts me generally has very little to do with gender and almost everything to do with personality. Nevertheless, there ARE differences, if only because society has forced them on us, and I've been prompted to think about them. Now, I'm speaking for myself here, not for anyone else, although I'm interested to see how many feel/think similarly. I think the most powerful difference is the fact that men, as a rule, are physically bigger/stronger than women. It is a rush nearly unique to femdom to have someone like that bending to your will and your desires. There is also a grace that is distinctly masculine that I have never seen in a man that wasn't at least "vanilla-level" submissive. It's hard to explain how it is different than feminine grace, but it is. There's something about humility in there, and something about sensitivity... The big analogy I hit on was the horse. (Bite back the ponyplay jokes! :P) Anyone who looks at a horse cannot help but see how powerful, graceful, beautiful an animal it is, and the greatness of its nobility, I think, is the way in which it submits to the rider, losing nothing of itself in the exchange. The submissive man is admirable in precisely the same way. He is no more weak than the horse, no less noble, just as beautiful, even as he is led rather than leads. I think we sometimes start to believe our own humiliation play, you know? The submissive male is/can be just as beautiful and special as the female, in his own unique way, and that's worth talking about and appreciating.

Shawn1066 -> RE: More musings on the male submissive. (6/7/2008 7:04:05 PM)
Yes, that's a very romantisized way of looking at it, but as you've stated, it's not exactly reflective of all F/m dynamics. For example, you state the most powerful difference is the fact men are, in general, stronger than women. My Owner is physically very powerful and dominant, which I suppose makes us a little different from the norm. She is absolutely, no question, my physical superior. So, I highly doubt she gets a thrill from having me at her feet because of my physical prowess. If she so chooses, she can overpower me in seconds. If you go by gender norms, she is very much the masculine partner and I'm very much the feminine partner in our relationship. Regardless, she does have a still blooming human being at her feet. She controls somebody with earnest hopes, dreams, talents, quirks, and strengths all his own. She controls somebody who is, humbly, a person who has a great deal of intelligence, emotional warm, and earnest devotion...somebody who was very much a blank slate in so many ways when she met him. She's been able to mold and shape me literally from scratch into her image, and yet I've also remained uniquely me throughout it all. I can be uniquely me and uniquely her's all at the same time, lest we forget. I can surmise that's a part of the thrill she finds. DV's Fox

bashfulhuck -> RE: More musings on the male submissive. (6/8/2008 12:04:09 AM)
DominantJenny, i have to say that your posts make me feel so good about myself, and help to fill me with so much hope for the future. It's so wonderful to see a Domina that's as much a romantic as i am as a submissive male. For me, i don't go into the objectification and dehumanizing. i'm the submissive that will do anything to protect and love his Domina, and i truly find my peace in this world when at her feet, her hand lovingly caressing my head that she places in her lap. When i have that in my life, nothing in this world can make me feel unsafe, insecure or unhappy. Thank you so much for the posts you've been making, i'm on a path of healing right now, and your words have very much begun to help with the process. With sincerity and respect, the bashful one

chezzy71 -> RE: More musings on the male submissive. (6/8/2008 1:54:58 AM)
A very cool metaphor..i always wanted to be Secratariat in the next life.

pixelslave -> RE: More musings on the male submissive. (6/8/2008 2:09:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chezzy71 A very cool metaphor..i always wanted to be Secratariat in the next life. Was that so you could have your legs broken while giving your all for your owner, then shot at Churchill Downs on National TV to be put out of your misery? [image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m24.gif[/image] - pixel (sorry, couldn't resist [;)])

blueskyboy -> RE: More musings on the male submissive. (6/8/2008 4:34:36 AM)
great metaphor... it helps with the point i constantly try to make about our kink i kneel not because i am weak...rather, conversely in fact, because i am strong and secure enough in myself, my masculinity, to seek a relationship with someone that also secure enough to live as they feel and think for themselves...beyond the order suggested both actively and passively by the society. my beauty purely in my utilitarian strength and in my avoidance of the urge to plagiarize, to be willing to and courageous enough to follow the lead of a another, a woman...or unwilling to read any part that wasn't written for me... hence, my difficulty with feminization and other soup de jour's on the menu... (many subs come with a menu already written - sort of diva subs -really in control) some of the items listed carry with them a subliminal message that makes me feel insincere...reinforces stereotypes - often apologize when i write or say that i am not interested in wearing panties...or preferring a natural woman as opposed to a person that has bathed in nair...(a chemical hair remover) i don't want to serve a prepubescent girl - sorry, don't call if you are my age and are still trying to be a little girl - i serve a woman - I DONT LIKE LITTLE GIRLS - why do i feel the need to be apologetic? because i'll be attacked by the puritan police?...something about cleanliness and hair in the mouth and it is my choice...but no matter, it carries a message...i'll take the hair in the mouth - the natural smells and taste of a woman over a strawberry any day...and i do not want to wear your panties, or try out make up - or play dress up...it is a waste of time...won't amuse either of us...i am a man and will never ever be a woman - but dress up speaks long after ...just like locking the doors when you enter an ethnic neighborhood does...you need no words to speak - those lessons are not forgotten...and they are evil i won't get started on the boots...:) nother day sorry...this turned into a rant...sort of but that metaphor just stirred me up - so thank you OP allow me to be a man, respect the strength i bring - both physical and emotional....don't fear it - use it - take the reins and lead, and don't just ride and look like you know where you are going... but are really just following a path blazed by others - probably a guy that had a fetish for vinyl ...yep - that had to be a guy the riding boots are just boots...sort of a costume - they have no mind

DominantJenny -> RE: More musings on the male submissive. (6/8/2008 5:07:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shawn1066 Yes, that's a very romantisized way of looking at it, but as you've stated, it's not exactly reflective of all F/m dynamics. For example, you state the most powerful difference is the fact men are, in general, stronger than women. My Owner is physically very powerful and dominant, which I suppose makes us a little different from the norm. She is absolutely, no question, my physical superior. So, I highly doubt she gets a thrill from having me at her feet because of my physical prowess. If she so chooses, she can overpower me in seconds. If you go by gender norms, she is very much the masculine partner and I'm very much the feminine partner in our relationship. Regardless, she does have a still blooming human being at her feet. She controls somebody with earnest hopes, dreams, talents, quirks, and strengths all his own. She controls somebody who is, humbly, a person who has a great deal of intelligence, emotional warm, and earnest devotion...somebody who was very much a blank slate in so many ways when she met him. She's been able to mold and shape me literally from scratch into her image, and yet I've also remained uniquely me throughout it all. I can be uniquely me and uniquely her's all at the same time, lest we forget. I can surmise that's a part of the thrill she finds. DV's Fox I think that thrill is the one that's (virtually) universal, regardless of gender or pretty much anything else. I knew there would be plenty of exceptions. :)

DominantJenny -> RE: More musings on the male submissive. (6/8/2008 5:08:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bashfulhuck DominantJenny, i have to say that your posts make me feel so good about myself, and help to fill me with so much hope for the future. It's so wonderful to see a Domina that's as much a romantic as i am as a submissive male. For me, i don't go into the objectification and dehumanizing. i'm the submissive that will do anything to protect and love his Domina, and i truly find my peace in this world when at her feet, her hand lovingly caressing my head that she places in her lap. When i have that in my life, nothing in this world can make me feel unsafe, insecure or unhappy. Thank you so much for the posts you've been making, i'm on a path of healing right now, and your words have very much begun to help with the process. With sincerity and respect, the bashful one I'm glad they've helped you, hon. I know how hard it is to heal sometimes.

DominantJenny -> RE: More musings on the male submissive. (6/8/2008 5:11:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blueskyboy great metaphor... it helps with the point i constantly try to make about our kink i kneel not because i am weak...rather, conversely in fact, because i am strong and secure enough in myself, my masculinity, to seek a relationship with someone that also secure enough to live as they feel and think for themselves...beyond the order suggested both actively and passively by the society. snip for brevity sorry...this turned into a rant...sort of but that metaphor just stirred me up - so thank you OP allow me to be a man, respect the strength i bring - both physical and emotional....don't fear it - use it - take the reins and lead, and don't just ride and look like you know where you are going... but are really just following a path blazed by others - probably a guy that had a fetish for vinyl ...yep - that had to be a guy the riding boots are just boots...sort of a costume - they have no mind Thanks...that first bit is very much part of what I was getting at. :) Rants happen! You're welcome. nod I don't get the boots thing myself, for the same reason you mention. But, hey, whatever floats someone's boat.

pixelslave -> RE: More musings on the male submissive. (6/8/2008 6:15:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blueskyboy it helps with the point i constantly try to make about our kink i kneel not because i am weak...rather, conversely in fact, because i am strong and secure enough in myself, my masculinity, to seek a relationship with someone that also secure enough to live as they feel and think for themselves...beyond the order suggested both actively and passively by the society. my beauty purely in my utilitarian strength and in my avoidance of the urge to plagiarize, to be willing to and courageous enough to follow the lead of a another, a woman...or unwilling to read any part that wasn't written for me... Great point! So few recognize the strength it takes in a man to submit to a woman's will which goes so strongly against the grain of our society and be proud of the role he accepts in doing so! [&:] - pixel

rubberpet -> RE: More musings on the male submissive. (6/8/2008 6:38:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pixelslave quote: ORIGINAL: blueskyboy it helps with the point i constantly try to make about our kink i kneel not because i am weak...rather, conversely in fact, because i am strong and secure enough in myself, my masculinity, to seek a relationship with someone that also secure enough to live as they feel and think for themselves...beyond the order suggested both actively and passively by the society. my beauty purely in my utilitarian strength and in my avoidance of the urge to plagiarize, to be willing to and courageous enough to follow the lead of a another, a woman...or unwilling to read any part that wasn't written for me... Great point! So few recognize the strength it takes in a man to submit to a woman's will which goes so strongly against the grain of our society and be proud of the role he accepts in doing so! [&:] - pixel Oh, how very true, pixel. I know I struggled with that very concept for the longest time. I knew deep inside that it was just who I was, but because of society's stereotypes, it is very difficult for a man to be submissive to a dominant woman. It takes great strength, confidence, and self-knowledge to not only accept submission to that woman, but to embrace that fact, as well. For the longest time, I always thought I was weak...a wimp or sissy because I hungered to be dominated by a woman. After discovering facts about submission (that it's perfectly OK to be submissive and loads of people, both men and women, have these feelings) and discovering things about myself, I slowly began embracing that feeling. Now, I have pretty much the same outlook as shawn's anaolgy, except of being a horse, I'm a dragon with great strength, pride, and confidence. I have found my Dragon Rider...She is the one who not only encourages and praises me for my submission to Her, She is constantly helping cultivate it further so I can be the best slave I can be for Her.[:)] She has not only harnessed the power and fury of the dragon in me, but She has also earned the one thing no one ever has before...my complete submission. [:)]

TermsConditions -> RE: More musings on the male submissive. (6/8/2008 2:16:05 PM)
DominantJenny, Thank you for this and your other great posts. You are always thoughtful, considerate, and very well-spoken. Your analogy holds up on several levels. My family owned horses and kept a stable when I was very young. I've since done a little riding but am by no stretch of the imagination what one would call an accomplished rider. And I'm not in "The LifeSyle" either. Based on my broad ignorance of both subjects I can pontificate on what I see as additional parallels twixt horse and rider, Dom and sub. Keeping a horse is a great responsibility. You are responsible for their health and well-being. And there is a considerable amount of work and care involved before and after a ride. Riding is a small bit of fun amid a greater relationship and a lot of effort. The relationship between horse and rider can become quite intimate. Each anticipating how the other will react to a certain set of circumstances or obstacle, each recognizing when the other is fatigued or otherwise reaching their limit. But the rider has the responsibility to know and respect the mount's limitations. The horse wants to be ridden, wants to run, and wants to please. The rider communicating control and clear direction will draw a better performance and instill confidence in the animal. Sensing a lack of such confidence the horse may test the rider who might be forced to keep a firm hand and demonstrate dominance until a relationship can form. But a partnership rather than unilateral dominance is the goal. Some horses are mischeveous, some laid back and others are just grumpy assholes. :-) And finally, the "Top ten things your sub OR horse might say" [:D] 10 My supple flanks ripple at your touch. 9 The sound sight and smell of leather always gets me up and ready for action! 8 Treats are great! Carrots, apples and pears are always big favs but a few sugar cubes or cup of sweet-feed are welcome. 7 I can be trained to come when you whistle. 6 Teh wimmins with the riding boots and quirt command my attention [8D] 5 Lay off the crop! I'll remember your Diet Coke next time! 4 And if you poke me in the ribs again I'll bite you again, chief. 3 Of course he means well but I don't want the nice man to shove his arm up my ass. 2 Don't ride me hard and put me away wet. I need some TLC and a snack! And the number one thing your sub OR horse might say: Why yes, I do have a gorgeous mane but are you just saying that so you can tie me to this post and put the saddle on? [:D]

DominantJenny -> RE: More musings on the male submissive. (6/8/2008 3:00:28 PM)
Thank you for the compliment! :) The analogy does hold up quite well, doesn't it? chuckles at the list Thanks for the grins!

pagankinktress -> RE: More musings on the male submissive. (6/8/2008 4:52:09 PM)
Like many have said above, there is something about the grace within when one is at ease with showing and sharing their vulnerability...that is such an admirable, attractive quality in a male submissive. I've never been able to articulate it quite right, but yeah...grace describes it perfectly. I do believe it has little to do with a sense of being able to physically dominate a male; it is because of the man's strength (physical and personal), confidence and intelligence that makes dominating him so...surreal and desirable. He is willing to surrender the stereotypical "maleness" in order to submit to me, that is quite a rush. The horse analogy fits nicely too, Dominant Jenny...you are so very thoughtful and even a bit poetic in your musings...thank you for sharing. :)

SnowRanger -> RE: More musings on the male submissive. (6/8/2008 6:41:21 PM)
Dear Dominant Jenny, First, I have to say that my experience with equine animals is limited. Long ago, I was on a forest fire in an area so remote that pack trains were the only sure method of re-supply. (The smoke was too thick for aerial support. That, in part, explains why I list helicopters as a 'turn off'.) ;-D Those animals were a life saver; but, I never had time to admire them. Consequently, I accept the comparison in the spirit that seems to be intended. I don't think that I would be turned on by being called pig, worm, dog or some such. I am a man. I want to surrender to a woman. You would not pick me out in a machismo contest; however, there aren't any men east of Interstate 25 that I would hold my self cheap next to. West of I-25, you can count them on one hand and most of them are dead. The thing is, that the men I speak of wouldn't ask me to. With that dual preface out of the way; I want to say that you DominantJenny are the very sort of woman I seek I hope to find a woman who respects me and cherishes me. I hope to find a woman who is proud that I submit to her and glories in the power she has over me. I hope to find a woman who is worthy of a man who has been (and I think, continues to be) a wee bit heroic. Lest you think that I am full of myself; please, understand that I hope to find a woman that requires me to be worthy of her also. I hope that there more like you out there! My best to you and I hope your man knows how lucky he is. Respectfully, Mike SnowRanger

TermsConditions -> RE: More musings on the male submissive. (6/8/2008 8:23:46 PM)
If you got a grin then I'm fulfilled. <whinny> [:D]

blueskyboy -> RE: More musings on the male submissive. (6/9/2008 5:20:13 AM)
thanks to all for reading that... hope that more know that there exists a stable of subs - a race of men that are masculine, strong, introspective, proud ...there are many of us that don't want to wear panties, aren't looking for another mother or a little girl, are not damaged goods walking around feeling bad, don't want to wear diapers, and are unwilling to stand on a podium not built by them guess we always worked at coaxing the smart girl off the wall at the dance...were not moved to act by the jiggle of a big breast...rather by the courage it took and takes to think for herself...barbie dolls did not move us...independance and intelligence did..brains and courage....not boobs we are willing to bear the strap, will take the crop when it means... speaks hard, no taps that leave us both wondering...but a strap that means...not just to be mean we are out here

cluelessslave -> RE: More musings on the male submissive. (6/9/2008 5:32:10 AM)
quote: I think we sometimes start to believe our own humiliation play, you know? The submissive male is/can be just as beautiful and special as the female, in his own unique way, and that's worth talking about and appreciating. Yes, men are not ugly brutes, imagine that.

chezzy71 -> RE: More musings on the male submissive. (6/9/2008 6:28:27 AM)
Pixel..i am sure you thought your response to my Secratariat response was humorous and i am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.But if i recall correctly and i assure you i do,Secratariat won the Triple Crown of horse racing and still holds the track record for the Kentucky Derby at 1:59 flat for a mile and a quarter.He also won the Belmont by 31 lengths and still 35 years later holds not only the track record but the world record for a mile and a half at 2:24 flat.He then race a few more times and was beaten at Saratoga by a horse named Onion and raced last at a track in Canada before being put out to stud.He died of complications from laminitis at the ripe old age of 17.All in all..not bad.

blueskyboy -> RE: More musings on the male submissive. (6/9/2008 7:10:33 AM)
after reading that last post again determined it sounded like i was suggesting that "we" were the best sort of subs...didn't mean to sound smug, or place a value or even devalue those that are diapered...but intended only to hint that there are all types here...none better than another...you choose a horse because he suits your purpose...a race horse may not be as strong as a plow horse...but each is equally beautiful and i can't speak for any "we" thanks for not jumping on me...it is a forum...guess we are all learning

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