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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/9/2008 8:28:22 AM   
fungasm


Posts: 321
Joined: 8/2/2007
Status: offline 		Why does the Mississippi need a actual Port to the Gulf- and why can't that port be upstream where it is more stable?  The only real reason I can see is National Security, and even then a military port would be more secure than what we have now.

An important note:  The Mississippi River isn't a major source of transportation anymore.   It used to be- but between the destruction of Katrina, flooding in the midwest, falling water levels in the river itself, environmental protocols which eliminated certain types of craft, lower bridges and increased passage across the North East: goods are no longer shipped in large quantities down the Mississippi.

Most of the craft on the Mississippi now are there for recreation, and moving the city itself North, keeping it near the river, keeps that commerce.

If we spent the money on the Iraq War on rebuilding New Orleans, then things would be siginificantly different.  But there is a serious infrastructure problem there. 

Yes, disasters happen other places, but in New Orleans it happens on schedule.  It's like living in Kansas and not building a Tornado Shelter. 

Comparing New York City to New Orleans is rather silly.  Yes, a hurricane could hit New York.  But New York is above Sea Level while New Orleans is below Sea Level.  New York has an esutary system to divert the water flow.  Basically that means that if New York were hit with a hurricane it would be like Miami being hit with a hurricane.  The City would get beaten up, but there wouldn't be standing water 10-50 feet deep afterwards.  The water has someplace to go. 

New Orleans is built, geographically speaking, in the bottom of a bowl.  We did it because that bowl was economically important and at the mouth of the Mississippi.  But the river has changed.  The economics have changed.  More than 40,000 people in the city of New Orleans are still unemployed and that doesn't count the ones who have stopped looking.   

It's just something to think about. 

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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/9/2008 8:31:36 AM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Many of the locks/damns on the Mississippi are for navigation; not flood control.  At least that's what info from the Army Corps of Engineers says.  I think it's important to understand the difference between levees and locks/damns.

http://www.mvp.usace.army.mil/navigation/default.asp?pageid=145

The Corps operates the locks and dams on the Mississippi River for navigation, not flood control. The locks and dams create slack-water pools for navigation during periods of low- and moderate-level water. For each pool, there is a primary control point, where a predetermined water elevation must be kept for navigation to continue.






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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/9/2008 8:44:16 AM   
MusicalBoredom


Posts: 620
Joined: 5/8/2007
From: Louisiana/New York
Status: offline 		Where are you getting your facts?  Most craft on the Mississippi are for recreation?

As far as the comparison to New York goes, the comparison is about how to you move a city's population.  I was there living in Manhattan for the last emergency.  I was there when all exit routes were closed for 9/11.  I was one of the people that was trapped on the island with no means of escape.  I was also in Louisiana for Katrina and Rita.  I saw both of these things first hand with my own eyes.  No major city in the US is prepared for mass evacuation.  We are much better now than we were and get better all the time but still not ready.

As far as unemplyment statistics I'd like a source for that as well.  Percentages by age are the only relavant stat.  40,000 out of one million wouldn't mean much while 40,000 out of 100,000 would be significant.  Also, unemplyed children don't really count for much either. 

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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/9/2008 9:21:00 AM   
mhawk


Posts: 509
Joined: 11/5/2007
From: Washington
Status: offline 		well from the standpoint of having worked on the steamboats there a littel over a year ago i can say this much.it is a big hub of commerce and has a great deal of history as well.

the banks of the Missippi River is consistant of one of the three largest import and export hubs in shipping and tourisim ships as well,hence the mass security on the banks of the river and all workers on all the ships having to know all of the MARSEC regulations(very much like the ones after 9/11 for air travel.

there are jobs there and i feel if done right rebuilding can be done for those that have chosen to stay there.

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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/9/2008 11:25:25 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

Many of the locks/damns on the Mississippi are for navigation; not flood control.  At least that's what info from the Army Corps of Engineers says.  I think it's important to understand the difference between levees and locks/damns.

http://www.mvp.usace.army.mil/navigation/default.asp?pageid=145

The Corps operates the locks and dams on the Mississippi River for navigation, not flood control. The locks and dams create slack-water pools for navigation during periods of low- and moderate-level water. For each pool, there is a primary control point, where a predetermined water elevation must be kept for navigation to continue.







Other sources also say there are no locks on the lower Mississippi, but clearly there is something there which people are calling locks, which is what was confusing me. 

"Unlike the 1,380 mile reach of the Upper Mississippi River which is constrained by 29 locks and dams, the Lower Mississippi River is free flowing."
http://www.fws.gov/southeast/lowermississippi/


"When talking about the Lower Mississippi River, it's the section downriver from the confluence of the Ohio River and Mississippi River at Cairo, IL, all the way to the delta, about 1,000 miles. There are no locks and dams like on the Upper Mississippi River, however the river is constrainedby levees and dikes for flood control and to maintain a safe navigation channel for the towing industry. "
http://www.steamboats.org/traveller/lower-mississippi-river.html


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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/9/2008 11:31:33 AM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Thank you for those links. 


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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/9/2008 12:06:38 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080608/ap_on_re_us/iraq_katrina


Well, well, well, ....thankyou Bush.

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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/9/2008 1:22:12 PM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		 
FR

...there are a lot of cities around the world located in flood plains. Some of them in even more strategic locations than New Orleans, some have architecture and such a weight of history behind them that the idea of giving them up is anathema. New Orleans comes into the latter class. It is a piece of the living history of US urban development, with all the cultural knock on that that entails. It is not just an economic entity, it is a cultural one, arguably a spiritual one. To give it up is, in a very real sense, to give up a small part of being human.

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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/9/2008 1:51:28 PM   
DomAviator


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Joined: 4/22/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy


New Orleans comes into the latter class. It is a piece of the living history of US urban development, with all the cultural knock on that that entails. It is not just an economic entity, it is a cultural one, arguably a spiritual one. To give it up is, in a very real sense, to give up a small part of being human.


Oh cut me a friggen break - ever been there pre-Katrina? It was an ugly dirty dingy musty smelling shithole. Seriously, the whole fucking place reeked like a bus stop that has had so much bum piss in it that it started growing mildew. It was overrun with mosquitos roughly the size of an F-14, and if they werent trying to suck your blood the vairous pickpockets and street vendors were. It was overpriced and crime ridden and an absolute let down in all senses of the word. There are other, better, places to have crawfish and jazz... As for Mardi Gras, the one in Galveston is more fun and a hell of a lot safer. Giving up New Orleans is giving up "a small part of being human"??? We should have evacuated and firebombed it before the storm just to contain the mold, mildew, and disease carrying mosquitos. No shit, do you know New Orleans is the ONLY place in the United States where LEPROSY (Hansen's Disease) is endemic?

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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/9/2008 2:56:46 PM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		I can only attest to the port areas from picking up there as a truck driver.  I found them as nasty as ... well .... any other port area in the country.  No big surprise there. 
I have no good or bad memories of the city because I avoided most of it. 

Now, here is a good reason for rebuilding.  If tourists are going down to visit the "big easy" then they aren't in my way anywhere else. 

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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/9/2008 3:20:25 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy


FR

...there are a lot of cities around the world located in flood plains. Some of them in even more strategic locations than New Orleans, some have architecture and such a weight of history behind them that the idea of giving them up is anathema. New Orleans comes into the latter class. It is a piece of the living history of US urban development, with all the cultural knock on that that entails. It is not just an economic entity, it is a cultural one, arguably a spiritual one. To give it up is, in a very real sense, to give up a small part of being human.


Oh, I do think that NOLA should be rebuilt, but seriously did you ever spend much time there? 
Besides a lot of very nice people, and a lot of nice things, such as you can find everywhere, there are:

A lot of 'burbs - Walmarts and all (ask the kink community down there about Nick A. Congemi ), a lot of very depressed neighborhoods (just because those shotgun houses were painted bright colors doesn't make living in them carefree), a lot of crime outside of the heavily patrolled tourist areas, some decaying industry and very heavy petro-chemical pollution, super corrupt government, awful schools, possibly the most corrupt police in the country (those that actually existed off of paper that is), an inbred sense of entitlement from the faux French legacy, creativity stifled by resting on the laurels of a long dead and briefly popular style of music, and the 'crowning glory' the icon of booze selling 'girlz gone wild' merchants everywhere, the French Quarter - where every morning the streets are washed clean of the puked up booze so that the next wave can enter.

Notice that no one is ever talking about glorifying any of the good parts of New Orleans...it is always the 'hustle', the 'Big Easy', the 'good times roll', the 'lost weekend' that people want to romanticize.

If they want to rebuild it, how about bulldozing the Superdome, and giving Tulane a few billion?

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 6/9/2008 3:21:20 PM >

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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/9/2008 3:25:28 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline 		Why are people rebuilding New Orleans?

Because it's what they want.


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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/9/2008 4:40:55 PM   
philosophy


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Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

Oh cut me a friggen break - ever been there pre-Katrina?


...yup.....i lived there.......worked on a krew, designed some bits and pieces and had to move on. i got to know the people who actually live there, their pride in their city, their knowledge of its unique history.
Have you ever spent more than a few days there? Do you know people there?

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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/9/2008 4:56:46 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
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quote:

worked on a krew

Is that anything like a Krewe?  And yes, I do know what New Orleans was like pre and post Katrina..it was as I described, your 'krew' experiences notwithstanding.

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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/9/2008 5:02:24 PM   
philosophy


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Joined: 2/15/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

worked on a krew

Is that anything like a Krewe?  And yes, I do know what New Orleans was like pre and post Katrina..it was as I described, your 'krew' experiences notwithstanding.


...oh, your description was totally accurate. My scorn was more directed at DA's small-minded polemic.  Thing is, NOLA has been like that for a long time? Why? Because it is how things have evolved there, as a result of the unique social and cultural influences that have come to bear there. i actually found the place invigorating, all the social challenges notwithstanding. Where else would a small mound of dirt be piled up, so that the kids can see what a hill looks like?
i cherish that sort of unique heritage.....even if it produces a less than perfect result.

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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/9/2008 5:04:39 PM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		There has to be a place for everything.  Why not rebuild the place for the lost weekend and washing puke from the streets in the morning?  I would love to visit the party that was New Orleans but I would rather return home to something different.  For those who call it home, stick with what you love.

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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/9/2008 5:12:07 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

worked on a krew

Is that anything like a Krewe?  And yes, I do know what New Orleans was like pre and post Katrina..it was as I described, your 'krew' experiences notwithstanding.


...oh, your description was totally accurate. My scorn was more directed at DA's small-minded polemic.  Thing is, NOLA has been like that for a long time? Why? Because it is how things have evolved there, as a result of the unique social and cultural influences that have come to bear there. i actually found the place invigorating, all the social challenges notwithstanding. Where else would a small mound of dirt be piled up, so that the kids can see what a hill looks like?
i cherish that sort of unique heritage.....even if it produces a less than perfect result.



Sorry for the mix up.  I like parts of that unique culture in small doses, just like I can take Beale Street every now and then.


BTW, Virginia Beach VA had to make a fake hill out of garbage so their kids could have something to run up and down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Trashmore

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RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/9/2008 5:17:01 PM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

worked on a krew

Is that anything like a Krewe?  And yes, I do know what New Orleans was like pre and post Katrina..it was as I described, your 'krew' experiences notwithstanding.


...oh, your description was totally accurate. My scorn was more directed at DA's small-minded polemic.  Thing is, NOLA has been like that for a long time? Why? Because it is how things have evolved there, as a result of the unique social and cultural influences that have come to bear there. i actually found the place invigorating, all the social challenges notwithstanding. Where else would a small mound of dirt be piled up, so that the kids can see what a hill looks like?
i cherish that sort of unique heritage.....even if it produces a less than perfect result.



Sorry for the mix up.  I like parts of that unique culture in small doses, just like I can take Beale Street every now and then.


BTW, Virginia Beach VA had to make a fake hill out of garbage so their kids could have something to run up and down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Trashmore


Good ole Mt. Trashmore.

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/9/2008 5:34:12 PM   
MusicalBoredom


Posts: 620
Joined: 5/8/2007
From: Louisiana/New York
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy


FR

...there are a lot of cities around the world located in flood plains. Some of them in even more strategic locations than New Orleans, some have architecture and such a weight of history behind them that the idea of giving them up is anathema. New Orleans comes into the latter class. It is a piece of the living history of US urban development, with all the cultural knock on that that entails. It is not just an economic entity, it is a cultural one, arguably a spiritual one. To give it up is, in a very real sense, to give up a small part of being human.


Oh, I do think that NOLA should be rebuilt, but seriously did you ever spend much time there? 
Besides a lot of very nice people, and a lot of nice things, such as you can find everywhere, there are:

A lot of 'burbs - Walmarts and all (ask the kink community down there about Nick A. Congemi ), a lot of very depressed neighborhoods (just because those shotgun houses were painted bright colors doesn't make living in them carefree), a lot of crime outside of the heavily patrolled tourist areas, some decaying industry and very heavy petro-chemical pollution, super corrupt government, awful schools, possibly the most corrupt police in the country (those that actually existed off of paper that is), an inbred sense of entitlement from the faux French legacy, creativity stifled by resting on the laurels of a long dead and briefly popular style of music, and the 'crowning glory' the icon of booze selling 'girlz gone wild' merchants everywhere, the French Quarter - where every morning the streets are washed clean of the puked up booze so that the next wave can enter.

Notice that no one is ever talking about glorifying any of the good parts of New Orleans...it is always the 'hustle', the 'Big Easy', the 'good times roll', the 'lost weekend' that people want to romanticize.

If they want to rebuild it, how about bulldozing the Superdome, and giving Tulane a few billion?


I do agree with most of that.  I do like a lot in New Orleans but bourbon street has never been anything I really cared for.  I like the Garden District, Mid City the Faubourg (sp) areas the most.  I also like the zoo and edges of the Quarter.

As far as Memphis, I agree with the Beale St comment as well.  I liked it when people came to visit but I liked this little place called the North End better but that was pre-pyramid.


< Message edited by MusicalBoredom -- 6/9/2008 5:37:24 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Why are we rebuilding New Orleans? - 6/9/2008 5:37:58 PM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

Oh cut me a friggen break - ever been there pre-Katrina?


...yup.....i lived there.......worked on a krew, designed some bits and pieces and had to move on. i got to know the people who actually live there, their pride in their city, their knowledge of its unique history.
Have you ever spent more than a few days there? Do you know people there?


No I never spent more than a few days there. The stench, bugs, oppressive heat, bad attitudes, pick pockets, thieves, beggars, bums, over priced tourist hustle, and crush of people had me wanting to get out sooner rather than later. You can only handle so many airboat rides, swamp tours, hoodoo women fortune tellers, and semi-interesting architecture before you have to look past it and see the real city...

As for knowing the people there - yeah 200,000 of them came to Houston. We had to reopen the old jail to make room for them and are still over capacity. Our crime rate jumped through the roof, our schools turned to shit, property values dropped, and even the damn street gangs arent safe anymore and the only thing keeping the phillistines outside the gate is an invisible landmark known to locals as "the deer park line". I have had all the New Orleans People I can handle in one lifetime and so have most other Houstonians.  

Now as for the legend of the Big Easy.... I honestly dont get what the big mystique is. The music scene / open air cafes / parties are much better in South Beach...  The sin city thing - nobody beats Vegas. The Mardi Gras in Galveston is just as much fun, cheaper, and much safer... Crawfish / Cajun food - Baton Rouge!!! I really dont see the NOLA mystique. The place was a fucking swamp with a slum in it, and the only place in the USA where cholera and leprosy is endemic in natural reservoirs.  

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