Isolation of sub/slave from family and friends (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion



Message

ShadowHwk -> Isolation of sub/slave from family and friends (2/27/2004 7:02:13 AM)

I have recently heard stories of “Masters” (I have never heard of a Mistress trying this) who seem to want to cut off their new sub/slave from his/her friends and family. While I will acknowledge that in some extreme circumstances this might be warranted (for example if the sub/slave’s family is terribly dysfunctional and it is to his/her benefit to be kept at some distance from them.), I would usually interpret this as a warning sign. Removing someone from their support system is one of the hallmarks of an abuser. Just wanted to hear the opinion of others on this topic.

Terry
AKA ShadowHwk



JerryInTampa -> RE: Isolation of sub/slave from family and friends (2/27/2004 7:20:10 AM)

To me it's one of those "danger Will Robinson" acts that I could also make a legetimate case for... if that was an element of the type of play the couple was looking for in the beginning ("lock me away from the rest of the world and make me think of nothing but you" or the like)



sweetieboop -> RE: Isolation of sub/slave from family and friends (2/27/2004 9:56:37 AM)

I've had people try to get me to disconnect from my family because they didn't like the way I was treated by them. However, family is very important to me. Although I pull away at times, I could never cut them off totally. When I really need them, no matter what differences we've had in the past, my family is always there for me. Unfortunately, my Masters haven't been. Hopefully, some day I will meet my true Master and I hope that he will love me and care enough about me to want me to have that connection with the people who are important my life. Honestly, I think the people that try to cut you off are insecure and not looking out for your best interest. I think that they want to control you to the point that you are afraid to leave because you won't feel that you can survive without them. Personally, I dedicate myself to my Master but I will never be so weak that I can't stand on my own if I have to. :)



MizSuz -> RE: Isolation of sub/slave from family and friends (2/27/2004 6:28:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShadowHwk

I have recently heard stories of “Masters” (I have never heard of a Mistress trying this) who seem to want to cut off their new sub/slave from his/her friends and family. While I will acknowledge that in some extreme circumstances this might be warranted (for example if the sub/slave’s family is terribly dysfunctional and it is to his/her benefit to be kept at some distance from them.), I would usually interpret this as a warning sign. Removing someone from their support system is one of the hallmarks of an abuser. Just wanted to hear the opinion of others on this topic.



Terry,

You've said a mouthful here, my man. I have, in fact, isolated someone before (for the specific reason you describe). I did not isolate them from everyone they knew, merely the people who were entirely too dysfunctional and meddlesome to deal with. The WAY that I've done it, however, was never by saying "You can not interact with this person again" rather, "I am unwilling to accept this amount of chaos in my life. You must choose, them or me." Once the person I told this to became quite upset and issued his own ultimatum.

He would tell you today he would do it differently if given the chance. He will never get the chance again.

As for the first sign of abuse, while I do not disagree with you I have to stress that this is a 'dark' place where we dwell. If two people agree to the terms, regardless of what they are, then it isn't really abuse...not in this venue. This is the primary reason it is so important for people, regardless of which end of the whip they are on, to come to this 'scene' as whole people (as opposed to broken people). Coming to the scene expecting to find the owner (or ownee) that is going to guide you through the emotional baggage you don't have the balls to deal with yourself is a cluster fuck waiting to happen...and MANY do it. "I'm very insecure and afraid to go out of the house, but a Master could make me do it and in so doing force me to face my fear," "my life would be fine if I could just find the submissive who would worship me (because I need that outside validation to fill my own gaps)" and any assortment of other smegma is common.

One thing I have learned in this life is that we draw people to us that will teach us the things we need to learn. This happens naturally. If you come to the scene as a victim you will draw a victimizer to you...to put your shit in your face. But it's not the victimizer that does the teaching...it's the victim that must teach themself how they set themself up to be victimized.

Come to the scene whole to begin with and you draw whole people to you (and know the signs of people that are not whole...and stay clear of them). My days of playing Knight(ress) in shining armor are over. I do not need to rescue anyone and I will not let anyone try to make me their savior. It's usually a descending spiral that saps the life out of both people.

My questions to anyone in this situation would be "are you content?" "did you agree to this?" "do you still agree to this?" "is this the sort of life you wish to live?" "are you energized by your relationship or does it only leave you drained?"

Trying to lay blame is a waste of time. Personal responsibility is the real deal. As I've said before, if you don't like the situation you are in, get out of it.



DommeVivaine -> RE: Isolation of sub/slave from family and friends (2/27/2004 7:39:08 PM)

Hello All,
*dons her flame retardant suit and paints a large target on the front*

First, I have never been in this particular situation, nor do I know anyone who hads been. However, I would like to mention that in addition to being a form of abuse, separation from the familiar and familial support structures, functional or otherwise, is one of the tools effectively used by cults in their attempts to mold new members. Not that I am implying that anyone here is part of, or represents, any form of alternative religion, I'm just saying that this is a scientifically valid tool for making someone vulneralble to other mind control techniques. In conjunction with other forms of control, which I won't mention, it can take a remarkably short amount of time to change an insecure but otherwise sane and functional human being into a walking automaton.

I think MizSuz was absolutely right in saying that one should "Come to the scene whole to begin with...", or at the very least knowing where your vulnerabilities are, what your "issues" are, and what the root causes might be. I don't quite agree that "If two people agree to the terms... then it isn't really abuse".

IMO Even in this venue, as dark as it inherently is, if someone asks me to do something that I know could cause permanent physical harm to that person, then no matter how much the person wants it, or how recognized the consent, I would have to consider doing so as abuse. If nothing else, I would certainly have to discuss with him why he would want me to do this.

To Suz' list of questions I would have to add: "Why do you feel this is necessary to you?", "Does this (or the result of this) make you feel better about yourself (your partner, your relationship, your whatever) and do you recognize why?", and finally, "What kind of exit strategy do you have in place to get out of this situation if you get into it and find that it is NOT what you wanted?"

In any case, I would certainly agree that this type of behavior is a danger sign in any relationship, but particularly for a new one.

I think I'll just leave the asbestos underwear on for now thanks *s*.

Smiles, Vivaine



inyouagain -> RE: Isolation of sub/slave from family and friends (2/28/2004 12:01:05 AM)

quote:

for example if the sub/slave’s family is terribly dysfunctional and it is to his/her benefit to be kept at some distance from them


Slips on Devil's Advocate gown, and throws in two more shiney pennies...

I agree it is fundamentally an act of abuse to isolate from family/friends without cause. In the example the reasoning was valid, BUT (tata!)...

In most vanilla walks of life and society as a whole, people who actively involve themselves in BDSM are in fact classified (stereotyped) as being dysfunctional units themself.

The Marke De Sade would never have been trusted by any element of society to determine if His next victim required isolation from said victim's friends or family which The Marke decides or felt were dysfunctional... or in some way contrary to His needs/wishes.

Wouldn't that be regarded as the proverbial pot calling the proverbial kettle black?

Who decides what is truly beneficial for whom? That is historically a revered and widely accepted figure of authorty... with credentials, Judges, Officials, Gods...

I was born and remain a mere human being.

I do not feel properly well suited for judgements of that nature, and my normal stance is to support and encourage bilateral communication from my submissive and their family/friends... it is a natural and easily defenseable position. If the contact becomes a problem, I agree the decision is not mine to make, however, I reserve the position of issuing the ultimatum... and force the 'actual' decision on the sub.

Anything else would appear to be a stance of desperation in attempt to 'keep' the submissive at all costs... total captive or otherwise. The willingness to dismiss the submissive by virtue of issuing an ultimatum leaves the Dom/me in a position of power and respect IMHO, and the change comes from within the submissive. Forcing isolation regardless of rationale may in fact provide temporary benefit(s)... but IMHO usually leaves the Dom/me with a 'runaway waiting for a place to happen'.

Inyouagain

Who Made Who (AC/DC)



MizSuz -> RE: Isolation of sub/slave from family and friends (2/28/2004 5:51:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: inyouagain


<snip>Who decides what is truly beneficial for whom?

<snip> I do not feel properly well suited for judgements of that nature, and my normal stance is to support and encourage bilateral communication from my submissive and their family/friends... it is a natural and easily defenseable position. If the contact becomes a problem, I agree the decision is not mine to make, however, I reserve the position of issuing the ultimatum... and force the 'actual' decision on the sub.



I suspect you and I are of a similar mind in this. In situations like this I, like you, only reserve the right to decide what is beneficial for me. I may have strong feelings and/or opinions about what is beneficial for my submissive, but ultimately only they can decide if they are willing to live the way I choose to live. As I suggested earlier, I don't say "you have to leave them" I say "This is not what I want in my life so it's them or me." As you say, the choice must come from the submissive.

You said it so very much better than I did, though.



ShadowHwk -> RE: Isolation of sub/slave from family and friends (2/28/2004 9:08:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MizSuz
As for the first sign of abuse, while I do not disagree with you I have to stress that this is a 'dark' place where we dwell. If two people agree to the terms, regardless of what they are, then it isn't really abuse...not in this venue. This is the primary reason it is so important for people, regardless of which end of the whip they are on, to come to this 'scene' as whole people (as opposed to broken people). Coming to the scene expecting to find the owner (or ownee) that is going to guide you through the emotional baggage you don't have the balls to deal with yourself is a cluster fuck waiting to happen...and MANY do it. "I'm very insecure and afraid to go out of the house, but a Master could make me do it and in so doing force me to face my fear," "my life would be fine if I could just find the submissive who would worship me (because I need that outside validation to fill my own gaps)" and any assortment of other smegma is common.



MizSuz,

As always, you have struck to the heart of the matter. This is indeed a "dark" place in which we dwell. And I do agree, that if the TWO agree to the terms, no matter what those terms are, then it isn't really abuse at all. And to be completely clear I wasn't referring to the consensual agreement between two potential partners, more I was addressing the issue where a potential Dom/Domme/Master/Mistress (Forever after to be abbreviated as DDMM!) is TELLING the potential Sub/Slave (SS) that they will be isolated - sometimes after they have started the dance. My concern is that those new to the scene don't realize that this is something they should think about very seriously before giving consent.

And I agree it does come down to personal responsibility. You can't give what you don't have. If you don't have control over your life, how can you possibly give that control to someone else? If you don't have control of your own life how can you control someone else? You should come to this life from a position of personal strength first, rather than looking to this lifestyle to solve your problems.

An example: A potential new Master recently approached someone whom I am mentoring. They actually met and came to find out that he:

1. Was about to be evicted from his home.
2. Had outstanding warrants for failure to pay child support.
3. Was hoping he could move in with his new “slave”.
4. Didn’t have a job, expected to sit home while his “slave” provided for him.

So exactly what could this individual possibly bring to the table as a potential Master? Not squat. He has no personal strength. Nor could he successfully control another, because he comes into the relationship from a place of weakness. He is not in control of his own life, yet he thinks to control another?

Oh and btw, just to make this clear – if this individual is “you”, and you have issue with me telling how it is, feel free to contact me.


Peace and Light
Terry
AKA ShadowHwk



sweetieboop -> RE: Isolation of sub/slave from family and friends (2/28/2004 9:27:18 AM)

I just wanted to clarify what I said earlier. I realize that there are times when the Dom/Master will try to get you to cut things off with people for the sub/slaves own good. For instance, my last Master asked me to end a 25 year friendship because it was bad for me. My friend had started using heavy drugs and cheating and lying to her husband, etc. He explained to me that it's in my best interest to leave this person in my past and then gave me the ultimate decision whether to do so or not. However, he forbid me to do anything with her because he didn't want me getting in trouble. THAT I can understand. What I can't except is that because my brother said some harsh things to me he wanted me to never talk to him again. I don't believe that there is any reason on this earth that could want me to abandon my family completely. I may pull away for a while at times, but I could never totally cut them off.



DommeVivaine -> RE: Isolation of sub/slave from family and friends (2/28/2004 11:15:56 AM)

Well said inyouagain. I have three more portable Lincoln portraits just in the "something to consider" category.

quote:

ORIGINAL: inyouagain
In ... society as a whole, people who actively involve themselves in BDSM are in fact classified ... as being dysfunctional units themself.


General Question : Sado/Masochism (and much of the rest of what iti is we do) was at one time classified as a psychological disorder. Does anyone know if it still is?

Thanks for the clarification on topic Shadowhawk. I misread that you meant new relationships, but even non-neophytes may not have considered this before they run into it. It would certainly indicate to me that the Dom who made such a demand was not secure in his own power -- he fears the power in existing bonds that might expose or counter his own lack. That's how I would see it if someone made such a demand of me.

As for the "Dom" who wanted his new sub to house him, care for his needs, entertain him, feed him, and presumably clean up after him? The man doesn't want a sub, he wants a keeper -- let him apply to the local zoo. Been there, done that, bought the lousy T-shirt, and luckily got away with most of my sanity. I left him the T-shirt [:)] If this individual should contact you Shadowhawk, I'll gladly hold your coat.

Smiles, Vivaine



SherriA -> RE: Isolation of sub/slave from family and friends (2/28/2004 11:53:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DommeVivaine

General Question : Sado/Masochism (and much of the rest of what iti is we do) was at one time classified as a psychological disorder. Does anyone know if it still is?



Sadism and Masochism are still listed in the DSM-IV-TR, but they're no longer considered paraphilias unless they interfere with normal functioning, causing stress and/or impairment. So, if you practice SM in a healthy manner, no, it's not considered a disorder.

Here's what the DSM-IV-TR has to say:

Diagnostic criteria for 302.84 Sexual Sadism
(cautionary statement)
A. Over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving acts (real, not simulated) in which the psychological or physical suffering (including humiliation) of the victim is sexually exciting to the person.

B. The person has acted on these urges with a nonconsenting person, or the sexual urges or fantasies cause marked distress or interpersonal difficulty.

Diagnostic criteria for 302.83 Sexual Masochism
(cautionary statement)
A. Over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving the act (real, not simulated) of being humiliated, beaten, bound, or otherwise made to suffer.

B. The fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

You can find the APA Diagnostic criteria at http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/dsm4TRclassification.htm It's a useful resource.

-- Sherri



Voltare -> RE: Isolation of sub/slave from family and friends (2/28/2004 3:14:39 PM)

I think isolation is one of those grey areas, ranking up there with 'pornography' if you like.

Common sense is the best guide here. If a sub/slave is told up front that they should expect to be isolated from friends and family for months or years, they have the opportunity to decide for themselves if they wish this. If it happens against the sub/slaves wishes, it could be seen as abuse. Keep in mind, though, certain circumstances apply. Suppose I am in the military (I was for four years) and I take a slave, and then a few months later am reassigned to Japan or Germany. Asking my slave to come with me, would by nature, isolate them! Am I abusive?

The sub/slave should have adequate influence in the relationship to express concerns, and in the end if they find that the isolation is unacceptable - they should a) communicate the concern, or b) decide if the Dom is worth staying for.

I do agree, though, taken with other factors, i.e. failing to respect limits (if there are any), expectations of illegal activities, alchohol or drug use, etc etc, it can be a big, ugly red flag. Then again, demanding to lead a slave down a busy street on a leash can be seen as a red flag to some people.

Stephan



Estring -> RE: Isolation of sub/slave from family and friends (2/28/2004 3:43:03 PM)

Stephan, I don't think taking a slave with you overseas if you are in the military would be isolation. Military people have wives and husbands that follow them all the time. They can keep in touch with friends and family by phone, mail, or the internet. Isolation would be cutting them off completely.
I don't think that that decision should ever be made by anyone but the slave or sub involved. I see no good reason for the Dom to make that decision. I have owned slaves and I have never even considered isolating any of them from their friends or family.
Giving them a choice to stay or go, if a friend or family member is causing problems with the relationship seems to be a good way to handle it if need be, but I have never had to do that.



Voltare -> RE: Isolation of sub/slave from family and friends (2/29/2004 3:29:18 PM)

While I see your point of view, I honestly do not see myself willing to permit a submissive or slave make a decision like that. Part of why she desires me to own her, is to make choices such as these for her.

That means when I say "It's only a year, darlin, you're staying here until I get back" then she does exactly that - by my choice.

Stephan



sub4hire -> RE: Isolation of sub/slave from family and friends (3/1/2004 6:15:54 PM)

Anyone remember Slavemaster? That I believe was the last case that made nationwide news. Although there are many smaller slavemaster cases all of the time through-out the country.
For those of you who have never head of him. He was an online Master..went by the nick slavemaster. He used to lure women to his home town. Play with them. Offer them work..etc..etc for relocating. When they did move they were cut off from the world. He would even answer their e-mail. Enslave them.
He got caught when when of the woman broke free somehow. She was found running down the street naked and bloody.
I don't recall how many women he killed but I believe it was in the higher two digits.
He is now in prison..but only because one of the slaves broke free. Not before he killed something like 70 women.
So is it good to isolate yourself? I would say no. I do believe if there was dysfunction in a family however most who tell you to isolate yourself from society and those who care about you, you have just recently met on the internet. They know little to nothing about who you really are.
It goes back to a question I asked someone on the message boards a few days ago.
If the Dom is so insecure that he fears you gaining knowledge, do you really want to be with him or her in the first place?
Aside from the fact they could also be an abuser.

Just my two cents.

Gloria



makemeserve -> RE: Isolation of sub/slave from family and friends (3/3/2004 12:36:35 PM)

i have never heard of a Master requiring this...However you see it all the time in ads from a Mistress/Domme



MistressDREAD -> RE: Isolation of sub/slave from family and friends (3/5/2004 1:14:56 AM)

As a Dominant My self when I contract , one of the items in My contracts is the contact of Family at least once a month by snail mail. If they have no family then a freind and I have the information of this person in case of emergancy as well. I do not care what the relationship is of the family of a slave nor desire to get involved with bloods mechanics but simply as a act of Human deciency and to even in sum cases develop again a open communication where there was none befor My Owning a slave because of that slaves Lifestyle choice always let them keep communcation even if it is not desired. ( I have also owned slaves whom have children from past marrages and they were made to communicate once a week to their children.) Maybe I could be concidered an abuser for making them keep contact with family by contract even if they them selfs dident desire it at the time?? ~smiles~if so Ill accept that kind of charge~



EStrict -> RE: Isolation of sub/slave from family and friends (3/5/2004 1:16:39 PM)

Actually I can relate to what you said Dread. I didn't speak to my own family (parents and siblings) for several years. My ex told them *stories* about my *new life*,, and being the *good catholics* they are, they basically told me until I was willing to seek professional help for my clear mental probles (after all, a woman *can't* really like to be tied up can she?), they wanted nothing to do with me.

More hurtful, my mother said she was glad my ex stole my children from me as I wasn't fit as a mother and was the *kind of woman she always did her best to keep her children away from.*

My children and I have always stayed in contact. At present they are a junior and senior and both plan on moving here after graduation. I talk to my one son about 5 times a day on average (no joke). But, I didn't speak a work to my parents for close to 2 years. I even went to PA to visit my sons and didn't tell my parents I was there. But, the first holiday I was with Master he *suggested* I call my parents. It wasn't an order, but I knew he would be disappointed in me if I didn't.

My mom and I now have a no-ask no-tell relationship. Most of my family as met Master as we have stayed with my parents twice. They think he is the best thing to ever happen to me. And even though I know they have heard me slip and say *sir* or *master*, they don't ask about our personal life and are thrilled with how we are doing as their daughter and son-in-law.

Sandy



mysteryUS -> RE: Isolation of sub/slave from family and friends (3/30/2004 9:26:40 PM)

New (here), but had to jump in on this thread after reading it...

I have experienced this, and in my opinion, it is a bad sign, for several reasons.
One, while the s/s may consent, if indeed they are even asked- (in my case it was slow and steady pressure, with contrived arguements and negativity with my family members by the so-called 'dom' - he is on this site and Alt, and has a 20 year + history of exactly the same pattern with all his 'subs') -if they are very new to the Scene, and full of dreams and needs and excitement, they can easily mistake what should be warning sign behaviors as dominance. You don't have to be a total fool for this to happen, either. Unless it is a very clear and well-discussed plan between the couple, I would strongly urge extreme caution. There are a lot of dysfunctional people everywhere, and the Scene is certainly not excluding our share of them. Other warning signs - taking all your money, inability to hold a job himself, moodiness, hot/cold behavior, excessive drinking/drug use, roommates when you are an adult well into your 40's, wanting to 'dom' only when drinking...etc etc. Be careful; see and interact with your potential dom in many different situations before getting too involved, to see how he behaves. I am sure the opposite is true, also; but I do think the submissive has the greater potential for harm.



Leonidas -> RE: Isolation of sub/slave from family and friends (3/31/2004 7:56:50 AM)

Ok, a different perspective again.

Slaves are human beings. Those who own slaves (Master or Mistress) would do well to manage their property (a human being) in such a way that they become more valuable over time. Most human beings don't do so well in isolation, though some do crave and thrive on it. It is incumbant on an owner of a human being to observe them closely, talk with them often and in depth, and determine just what will make them thrive, and be of greater value and service. It isn't very satisfying to own a broken, dysfunctional human. They are more trouble than they are worth. If you isolate your slave from the outside world for an extended period, they will probably retreat into their own internal, mental world. There is no reality check. You will end up with a broken, dysfunctional human in your collar more often than not. I would recommend against it.

There is an old saying that opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one, but nobody really cares much to see someone else's (my apologies to anal fetishists). I mention this because there is a period of time in every new slave's development when they will struggle in their bondage. Emoitons will run high. Master will often be unfair, or too strict, or insensitive to the slave's needs. It's common for a new slave to vow to run away many times before they finally and fully accept that they are a slave, and that they are owned. There are many many sympathetic ears for any slave who wants to bitch. Most of those ears belong to someone who wouldn't mind fucking said slave, or who otherwise either has their own agenda, or believes beyond doubt that they know more than the mere owner of the slave. For a brand new slave, a period of limited contact with outside influences can shorten the learning curve, much the same way that "boot camp" orients new recruits to the service in a shorter time span. Is it necessary? I don't think it is. Can it be helpful? Sometimes. I don't do it myself because I'm patient enough to let the slave run the course of struggling, being disuaded by outside influences, being confused, reaffirming their submission, and trying again. Some men aren't so patient, or perhaps they are more merciful.

Little to none of the above applies if your lifestyle is one of sexual dominance and submission within the context of a relationship that is otherwise between equals. It applies only to consentual slavery. If what I said here seems too cut-and-dried to you, or too hard, that is probably why. If you are in a sexual D/s relationship and consider yourselves equals otherwise, then naturally these kinds of issues need to be negotiated and mutually agreed.

Take care of yourselves.

Leonidas



Page: [1] 2   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.03125