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why the west has ALLOWED this to happen - 6/10/2008 11:26:33 AM   
slvemike4u


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Status: offline 		Two threads this weekend prompted this question.The first was an ackowledgement of the passing of Jim McKay the second posed the question why the west allws this to happen(the palestinian issue).now with out arguing the relative right or wrongs of that complex issue,the connection I made was this,I am of an age which saw my first introduction to the question at Munich during the 72 olympics.My question would be this had the palestinians chose different methods of persuing a palestinian state ,rather than the taking of hostages ,the blowing up of buses coffee shops and other very disturbing and shocking acts,would not a Palestinian State be a reality now .BTW i am not concedeing the west's responsibility or obligation to solve all the worlds problems especially if when one says the west  one means the U.S.A. but given the methods and the corruption of their own leadership what  is the west obligated morally to do
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RE: why the west has ALLOWED this to happen - 6/10/2008 11:28:49 AM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		"The West" needs a rest.
"We should avoid foreign entanglements."

       - George Washington -

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RE: why the west has ALLOWED this to happen - 6/10/2008 11:33:30 AM   
christine1


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Status: offline 		i think the "west" would do good to keep their nose in personal matters and stay out of the affairs of other countries.  there is a lot to be done at "home" at the moment that seems to be being ignored.

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RE: why the west has ALLOWED this to happen - 6/10/2008 11:45:21 AM   
slvemike4u


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Status: offline 		Okay I probably left that too open .I used the phrase the"west" in my OP as a result of tying the two threads from the weekend together.Think of the question this way than ,basically if the leadership of the Palestinians had chosen a different for of resistance rather than the one they have followed would or could this problem have been resolved already.Now i realise there options were limited...but is the problem of world apathy not directly related to acts such as Munich and if so where does the responsibility lie

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RE: why the west has ALLOWED this to happen - 6/10/2008 12:00:36 PM   
OmegaG


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Status: offline 		If "the West" had kept out of the Middle East to begin with, Palastine would have a country to live in.

Futhermore, "the West" tends to arrogently assume that all humans think like us and want what we have and are often dismayed when their initial meddling backfires and they find the areas they tried to convert are worse of then if they'd left well enough alone.

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RE: why the west has ALLOWED this to happen - 6/10/2008 12:17:58 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OmegaG

If "the West" had kept out of the Middle East to begin with, Palastine would have a country to live in.

Futhermore, "the West" tends to arrogently assume that all humans think like us and want what we have and are often dismayed when their initial meddling backfires and they find the areas they tried to convert are worse of then if they'd left well enough alone.
OmegaG the question was posed in relation to the tactics adopted by Palestinian's,tactics like Munich in 1972 .Keeping in mind that was a world stage and designed to focus the world attention on the issue,i did not intend the scope of the question to include the recognition of Isreal in 1948 ,that after all is done there is no scenario to unring that bell...don't see how the "west" can than be told to mind its own business....so again if the Palestinian leadership had chosen more peacfull or shall we say less repulsive tactics would there not be a Palestinian solution by now...purely speculative of course

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RE: why the west has ALLOWED this to happen - 6/10/2008 12:18:20 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OmegaG

If "the West" had kept out of the Middle East to begin with, Palastine would have a country to live in.

Futhermore, "the West" tends to arrogently assume that all humans think like us and want what we have and are often dismayed when their initial meddling backfires and they find the areas they tried to convert are worse of then if they'd left well enough alone.

The only way Palestine would be a state would be through direct intervention of the "west." If Britain hadn't stepped in when the Ottoman Empire collapsed the area would have been grabbed by the neighbors and the palestinian arabs would be ruled from Cairo, Amman, Damascus and Beirut. If the US had not supplied the Israelis with arms then the 1948 would still have likely been won by the Israelis since they were simply better combatants. After Israel was a nation they would have bought arms from someone and the arab states would have still lost in 1967 and 1972.

The only reasonable way for the palestinian arabs to have had a state of their own was to have accepted the quite viable nation the British handed them in 1948.

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RE: why the west has ALLOWED this to happen - 6/10/2008 12:25:10 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

I am of an age which saw my first introduction to the question at Munich during the 72 olympics.My question would be this had the palestinians chose different methods of persuing a palestinian state ,rather than the taking of hostages ,the blowing up of buses coffee shops and other very disturbing and shocking acts,would not a Palestinian State be a reality now


No, there wouldn't be a Palestinian state and what is more, we wouldn't even be discussing the possibilty of a Palestinian state. The Palestinians took to terrorism because terrorism worked for the Israelis. Yes, the Israelis were the first to use terrorism in that conflict. At the birth of Israel, mass murder was used as a tool to ethnically cleanse the christian and muslim arabs from what is now Israel. You don't have to take my word for it, there are enough testimonies by contemporary Israeli fighters confirming this.

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RE: why the west has ALLOWED this to happen - 6/10/2008 12:28:12 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: christine1

i think the "west" would do good to keep their nose in personal matters and stay out of the affairs of other countries.  there is a lot to be done at "home" at the moment that seems to be being ignored.


Here! Here!

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RE: why the west has ALLOWED this to happen - 6/10/2008 12:36:58 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

BTW i am not concedeing the west's responsibility or obligation to solve all the worlds problems especially if when one says the west  one means the U.S.A. but given the methods and the corruption of their own leadership what  is the west obligated morally to do


The UK started the conflict in the middle east by allowing alien Jewish immigration into Trans-Jordania, before that there wasn't a conflict between the resident Jewosh and Arab population. Balfour, the then British foreign minister sided with the zionists, who were east European Jews and allowed legal (and illegal) immigration into Trans-Jordania. The influx of peoples with an alien culture (European/Jewish) into the region started the conflict.

After WWII the conflict was made worse by allowing further immigration into the region by the new UN, basically because of the guilt over the holocaust. So the Arabs of Trans-Jordania ended up paying the debt of NAZI Germany. In 1967, America sanctioned a premptive strike by Israel which started the '67 war and the Israeli land grab which is the main cause of the conflict today. The USA has a lion share of guilt because it bank rolls Israeli expanionism and supports Israeli war and human rights crimes and protects Israel from UN resolutions (14 times if I remember correctly).

You will notice that all new US presidential condidates humiliate themselves by paying homage and kneeling before the Israeli lobby like vassal kings to get money at each general election. So yes, the US has a responsibility in the middle east, especially since the US refuses to allow any other country to play the part of mediator in the middle east.

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RE: why the west has ALLOWED this to happen - 6/10/2008 2:10:15 PM   
MissSepphora1


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Status: offline 		Everyone thinks "The West" in particular the US, is Satan.  Until of course the next Tsunami, Earthquake, Flood, or whatever natural disaster happens and the US is always there with a helping hand and open heart.
Those things are "our responsibility" as the super power.
This is paraphrased from an Egyptian muslim.

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RE: why the west has ALLOWED this to happen - 6/10/2008 2:27:07 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

Everyone thinks "The West" in particular the US, is Satan. 



Everyone, really  ?

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RE: why the west has ALLOWED this to happen - 6/10/2008 2:37:46 PM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		Slvemike, the best way to stop *all* this kind of stuff is to *Stop the Checks!*
*No More Money!*

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RE: why the west has ALLOWED this to happen - 6/10/2008 2:41:58 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

I am of an age which saw my first introduction to the question at Munich during the 72 olympics.My question would be this had the palestinians chose different methods of persuing a palestinian state ,rather than the taking of hostages ,the blowing up of buses coffee shops and other very disturbing and shocking acts,would not a Palestinian State be a reality now


No, there wouldn't be a Palestinian state and what is more, we wouldn't even be discussing the possibilty of a Palestinian state. The Palestinians took to terrorism because terrorism worked for the Israelis. Yes, the Israelis were the first to use terrorism in that conflict. At the birth of Israel, mass murder was used as a tool to ethnically cleanse the christian and muslim arabs from what is now Israel. You don't have to take my word for it, there are enough testimonies by contemporary Israeli fighters confirming this.
Meatcleaver i must have done a shit poor job of posing my question.Never intended to argue or persue the question of right nor wrong dating back all the way to the very creation of the Isreali state.What i did ask about were opinions on the effectiveness of terrorist attacks such as munich in garnering world attention be it scorn or sympathy....If You want to argue the very right of Isreal to exist I'm sure we can get a thread going,but IMO thats a nonstarter they ain't going anywhere

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RE: why the west has ALLOWED this to happen - 6/10/2008 2:46:36 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSepphora1

Everyone thinks "The West" in particular the US, is Satan. 



Everyone, really  ?
Kittin are you saying you like us thats so kewl   ....

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RE: why the west has ALLOWED this to happen - 6/10/2008 2:49:24 PM   
lusciouslips19


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OmegaG

If "the West" had kept out of the Middle East to begin with, Palastine would have a country to live in.

Futhermore, "the West" tends to arrogently assume that all humans think like us and want what we have and are often dismayed when their initial meddling backfires and they find the areas they tried to convert are worse of then if they'd left well enough alone.


Thats not true. It has always been occupied by someone. Israel was occupied by the UK before it was occupied by the Israelis.

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RE: why the west has ALLOWED this to happen - 6/10/2008 2:53:08 PM   
Irishknight


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Status: offline 		If I am understanding you correctly, you want to know if we think Palestine's terrorist tactics have been counterproductive.  Am I close on that?
And, in a word, YES.  Who can say whether the rest of the world would have put pressure on the countries surrounding them to help them form their own country? 

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RE: why the west has ALLOWED this to happen - 6/10/2008 2:53:34 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

I am of an age which saw my first introduction to the question at Munich during the 72 olympics.My question would be this had the palestinians chose different methods of persuing a palestinian state ,rather than the taking of hostages ,the blowing up of buses coffee shops and other very disturbing and shocking acts,would not a Palestinian State be a reality now


No, there wouldn't be a Palestinian state and what is more, we wouldn't even be discussing the possibilty of a Palestinian state. The Palestinians took to terrorism because terrorism worked for the Israelis. Yes, the Israelis were the first to use terrorism in that conflict. At the birth of Israel, mass murder was used as a tool to ethnically cleanse the christian and muslim arabs from what is now Israel. You don't have to take my word for it, there are enough testimonies by contemporary Israeli fighters confirming this.

?
The first major anti jewish violence by arabs in what is now Israel predates the 1948 war by at least 28 years.

BTW the arabs were not cleansed from Israel. There arabs living in Israel after the 1948 war ended and arabs still live, fully integrated, in Israel today. All available evidence shows that most of the arabs who fled left of their volition based primarily on fears caused by propoganda spread by their own leaders.

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RE: why the west has ALLOWED this to happen - 6/10/2008 3:08:53 PM   
slvemike4u


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Status: offline 		Thank you IK for being the first to correctly decipher my clumsy attempt to phrase a queston.To the rest of the responders my apologies for butchering my ow query...feel free to take the thread where you will ...as an  aside to this whole question ,Jim Mckay's was buried today.

< Message edited by slvemike4u -- 6/10/2008 3:30:27 PM >

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RE: why the west has ALLOWED this to happen - 6/10/2008 5:03:28 PM   
Alumbrado


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Status: offline 		It is a popular belief that there is a moral relativism to tactics of war.

One time honored approach to war is to get a bigger army and better weapons and go take what you want.

When that was the predominant model, those with smaller armies or outmoded equipment no doubt complained about the unfairness and immorality of being conquered.

Another approach for those who don't have the bigger army or better weapons is to use guerrilla tactics to stop the first group. ala the Vietnamese War for Independence, and the American Revolution.

Again the loser may suggest that there was something 'wrong' about the tactics of the successful guerrilla fighters.

Nowadays, even the most regimented military force is standardized to operate both in, and against guerrilla mode...So what is left for those without that option?

The next rung in the tactical ladder...do something that will guarantee front page coverage all over the world, and then try to spin public opinion through propaganda and debate tactics.

That 'something' can be taking high profile hostages, using human shields on one's positions, or it can be strapping some explosives to a child sent into a marketplace.


Again, those who are the recipient of such tactics will characterize them as horrible...which is exactly why they get the talking points of the side that uses them all over the media.

Without the media's sensationalistic credo 'IIBIL', the tactic of terrorism would be chosen far less often.

In response to the OP question, yes Palestine has benefited greatly from the application of terrorist tactics...without them their version of the story would never have gained the credibility it enjoys today..and with credibility comes money, materials, and other support.... and ultimately leverage.

Anyone who want to argue that the choice of one tactic of war cover another is more moral than the next is welcome to do so.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 6/10/2008 5:05:04 PM >

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