RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights.

RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. (Full Version)

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philosophy -> RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. (6/13/2008 1:36:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Our laws are based upon precedent. This ruling set a very dangerous one. .....some of us feel strongly that Gitmo is setting a far more dangerous precedent.

kittinSol -> RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. (6/13/2008 1:39:21 PM)
That's right, poppy, it's the US Constitution that helped make America a great country. And that, my dear, was no longer the order of things, as the very government that was supposed to be ruled by the Constitution merrily trampled on it, trying to Top from the bottom - thankfully yesterday's ruling may help redress the situation [:(] .

Mercnbeth -> RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. (6/13/2008 1:39:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Our laws are based upon precedent. This ruling set a very dangerous one. .....some of us feel strongly that Gitmo is setting a far more dangerous precedent. Sequestering enemies, in lieu of killing them upon capture, has been a tradition of war long before the US was a country. Where is the precedent set in Gitmo other than a new label?

popeye1250 -> RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. (6/13/2008 1:42:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol That's right, poppy, it's the US Constitution that helped make America a great country. And that, my dear, was no longer the order of things, as the very government that was supposed to be ruled by the Constitution merrily trampled on it, trying to Top from the bottom - thankfully yesterday's ruling may help redress the situation [:(] . Kittin, I TOTALLY agree with you! You're "preaching to the Choir" here Kid! [:D]After all, what good are "Laws" if they're not enforced, right? [:D]

Zensee -> RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. (6/13/2008 1:43:53 PM)
Suspects. They are suspects. Can we keep this in mind. If there is evidence of a crime then let that be shown in court. Z.

philosophy -> RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. (6/13/2008 1:45:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Our laws are based upon precedent. This ruling set a very dangerous one. .....some of us feel strongly that Gitmo is setting a far more dangerous precedent. Sequestering enemies, in lieu of killing them upon capture, has been a tradition of war long before the US was a country. Where is the precedent set in Gitmo other than a new label? ......there are differences. The length of time held is one such. As is not allowing the Red Cross the usual access. As is the standard of proof used to identify these 'enemies'. To be fair we do have to look at Gitmo in a modern context. Comparing it to some practise from the War of the Roses is not really a fair comparison. In WWII the Allies saw no need for anything like Gitmo for anything longer than a few weeks at most. After that it was either shot as a spy or off to a proper POW camp, with all the rights accorded to them under the Geneva convention.

popeye1250 -> RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. (6/13/2008 1:46:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Our laws are based upon precedent. This ruling set a very dangerous one. .....some of us feel strongly that Gitmo is setting a far more dangerous precedent. Sequestering enemies, in lieu of killing them upon capture, has been a tradition of war long before the US was a country. Where is the precedent set in Gitmo other than a new label? Phil, Merc has a very strong point! Zensee, ok, I'll go along with that![:D]

popeye1250 -> RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. (6/13/2008 1:49:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Our laws are based upon precedent. This ruling set a very dangerous one. .....some of us feel strongly that Gitmo is setting a far more dangerous precedent. Sequestering enemies, in lieu of killing them upon capture, has been a tradition of war long before the US was a country. Where is the precedent set in Gitmo other than a new label? ......there are differences. The length of time held is one such. As is not allowing the Red Cross the usual access. As is the standard of proof used to identify these 'enemies'. To be fair we do have to look at Gitmo in a modern context. Comparing it to some practise from the War of the Roses is not really a fair comparison. In WWII the Allies saw no need for anything like Gitmo for anything longer than a few weeks at most. After that it was either shot as a spy or off to a proper POW camp, with all the rights accorded to them under the Geneva convention. Phil ok, sounds good to me! Now, how do we ensure that our guys get "all rights accorded to them under the Geneva Conventions Accords?

slvemike4u -> RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. (6/13/2008 1:49:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Unfortunately yes, what goes on in the United States has repercussions throughout the world - but that is not why[:D] I argue in favour of respecting the law. Do you think laws should be disregarded whenever it suits our individual purpose, and if so, what is the point of them?[:D] Why would you argue otherwise, especially in the light of your frequently referencing the Constitution and the people who wrote it? Why not change it, if that's what you think is necessary? I'm genuinely curious. Slvemike, Kittin, how's about a little Quid Pro Quo? If you guys will agree to strictly enforce our immigration laws I'll agree to give these GTMo vermin "rights" to a trial. Hell, I'll even agree to buy 'em Cadillacs! Deal? I must agree with Kittin, we have to enforce ALL of our laws! But this isn't quid pro qou this isn't something you get to link ...rail all you want about immigration,,,just before you deport anyone you will have to give them due process under the law....thats just the way it is

popeye1250 -> RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. (6/13/2008 1:58:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Unfortunately yes, what goes on in the United States has repercussions throughout the world - but that is not why[:D] I argue in favour of respecting the law. Do you think laws should be disregarded whenever it suits our individual purpose, and if so, what is the point of them?[:D] Why would you argue otherwise, especially in the light of your frequently referencing the Constitution and the people who wrote it? Why not change it, if that's what you think is necessary? I'm genuinely curious. Slvemike, Kittin, how's about a little Quid Pro Quo? If you guys will agree to strictly enforce our immigration laws I'll agree to give these GTMo vermin "rights" to a trial. Hell, I'll even agree to buy 'em Cadillacs! Deal? I must agree with Kittin, we have to enforce ALL of our laws! But this isn't quid pro qou this isn't something you get to link ...rail all you want about immigration,,,just before you deport anyone you will have to give them due process under the law....thats just the way it is Slvemike, I have no problem with that Mate! No problems at all![:D] We could use high school gymnasiums as courtrooms for all I care. Anything else you'd like? You need to listen to KittinSol! Even though she didn't go to law school she's a *"Brilliant Legal Scholor!"*

philosophy -> RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. (6/13/2008 2:07:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 Now, how do we ensure that our guys get "all rights accorded to them under the Geneva Conventions Accords? ...we can't. The only actions we can directly control are our own. However, arguably, by observing the legal niceties we remove one more justification for enemies to not observe such niceties. In the long game (and probably only in the long game) by honouring obligations under international treaties we save more lives than by expediently ignoring said obligations.

slvemike4u -> RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. (6/13/2008 2:09:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Unfortunately yes, what goes on in the United States has repercussions throughout the world - but that is not why[:D] I argue in favour of respecting the law. Do you think laws should be disregarded whenever it suits our individual purpose, and if so, what is the point of them?[:D] Why would you argue otherwise, especially in the light of your frequently referencing the Constitution and the people who wrote it? Why not change it, if that's what you think is necessary? I'm genuinely curious. Slvemike, Kittin, how's about a little Quid Pro Quo? If you guys will agree to strictly enforce our immigration laws I'll agree to give these GTMo vermin "rights" to a trial. Hell, I'll even agree to buy 'em Cadillacs! Deal? I must agree with Kittin, we have to enforce ALL of our laws! But this isn't quid pro qou this isn't something you get to link ...rail all you want about immigration,,,just before you deport anyone you will have to give them due process under the law....thats just the way it is Slvemike, I have no problem with that Mate! No problems at all![:D] We could use high school gymnasiums as courtrooms for all I care. Anything else you'd like? You need to listen to KittinSol! Even though she didn't go to law school she's a *"Brilliant Legal Scholor!"* And despite your rather flawed logic you are a verry funny guy....probably be a hoot and a holler to have a beer with you....Just wouldn't trust you running a traffic court...if you don't mind

popeye1250 -> RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. (6/13/2008 2:52:05 PM)
Slvemike, aren't you absolutely impressed with KittinSol? "Enforce all laws." What a breathtaking, progressive, revolutionary, legal mind she has! And all this time I was overlooking her astounding wisdom! "Do you think laws should be disregarded whenever it suits our individual purpose, and if so, what is the point of them?" Again, superlative thinking! Fucking Brilliant!!! And the people who we pay to run our country can't even come close to her and many of them are lawyers! I wonder if I could get her autograph? If we had people in Washington with half of her intelligence we'd be in good hands in this country! "Ladies and Gentlemen, may I introduce our new U.S. Representative from the great state of New Hampshire,...Congresswoman ...KittinSol!!!!!!" Music to my ears! Oh yeah, I'm a hot shit. I'm a Mick from Boston, Mass think "Dennis Leary."

slvemike4u -> RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. (6/13/2008 2:55:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 Slvemike, aren't you absolutely impressed with KittinSol? "Enforce all laws." What a breathtaking, progressive, revolutionary, legal mind she has! And all this time I was overlooking her astounding wisdom! "Do you think laws should be disregarded whenever it suits our individual purpose, and if so, what is the point of them?" Again, superlative thinking! Fucking Brilliant!!! And the people who we pay to run our country can't even come close to her and many of them are lawyers! I wonder if I could get her autograph? If we had people in Washington with half of her intelligence we'd be in good hands in this country! "Ladies and Gentlemen, may I introduce our new U.S. Representative from the great state of New Hampshire,...Congresswoman ...KittinSol!!!!!!" Music to my ears! Oh yeah, I'm a hot shit. I'm a Mick from Boston, Mass think "Dennis Leary." while I am indeed impressed by the Kittins brilliant mind,I am at the end of the day male pond scum and her mind is not the first thing that jumps out at me....all apologies Ms. Kittin

farglebargle -> RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. (6/13/2008 3:07:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 We were taught in the 1960's in high school that the judicial branch was there to "keep in check" the executive and legislative branches of government, not to do their jobs for them or to dictate to The People. It's a tribute to your memory that you remember this; and this is exactly why the Supreme Court made this judgement. The legislative powers keeping the executive in check and trying to curtail abuse of power by the latter. Kittin, nice try. Again, the U.S. Supreme Court has no jurisdiction outside of the U.S. If a US Employee or Contractor is abroad, they are still subject to the Laws of the United States. This really isn't about the Supreme Court giving prisoners rights. It's about holding the PRISON GUARDS to American Standards. If you're being held by Americans, you got the right to ask a court to determine if your captivity is justified.

popeye1250 -> RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. (6/13/2008 4:02:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 We were taught in the 1960's in high school that the judicial branch was there to "keep in check" the executive and legislative branches of government, not to do their jobs for them or to dictate to The People. It's a tribute to your memory that you remember this; and this is exactly why the Supreme Court made this judgement. The legislative powers keeping the executive in check and trying to curtail abuse of power by the latter. Kittin, nice try. Again, the U.S. Supreme Court has no jurisdiction outside of the U.S. If a US Employee or Contractor is abroad, they are still subject to the Laws of the United States. This really isn't about the Supreme Court giving prisoners rights. It's about holding the PRISON GUARDS to American Standards. If you're being held by Americans, you got the right to ask a court to determine if your captivity is justified. Fargle, you're confused. There's no Marine Guards on trial here right? Did not the SC say that we have to give these people "trials" or what? And that's not true about being abroad and having protections of U.S. laws! Try that shit in Mexico! Try it in China. Try it in a hundred other countries. If you fuck up you're going to end up in one of their jail cells not ours! Look at all the people who get caught trying to smuggle drugs in foreign countries. There's a show on TV about it on the History Channel or National Geographic Channel, it's called "Locked Up Abroad." Rights? What rights? Sorry but I don't think we're in Iraq legally. Fargle, here's an idea! Let's have the Brilliant Legal Scholors in Washington make a bunch more laws and not enforce them either! Anyone who was in the Navy or Marines remembers "the talk" before going ashore. "Listen up people! Once you set foot on their soil you are under their laws not U.S. Law! "So if you Fuck Up "we" can't help you, you're on your own!" And one time in Athens Greece three Sailors from the Carrier Roosevelt killed a Greek cab driver and robbed him. They're probably still in jail,... in Greece not the U.S. Are you trying to say that foreign countries can't or don't have their own laws? You are subject to the laws of whichever country you are in. If I was in England and messed up real bad I'd be going to court and possably jail in England, not the U.S.

kittinSol -> RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. (6/13/2008 4:17:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 There's a show on TV about it on the History Channel or National Geographic Channel, it's called "Locked Up Abroad." The brilliance of this referencing is blinding [sm=cool.gif] .

farglebargle -> RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. (6/13/2008 4:48:15 PM)
quote: Are you trying to say that foreign countries can't or don't have their own laws? You are subject to the laws of whichever country you are in. If I was in England and messed up real bad I'd be going to court and possably jail in England, not the U.S. There's no reason a United States Attorney couldn't present charges to a grand jury once England deports you after serving your sentence there.

FullCircle -> RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. (6/13/2008 4:49:19 PM)
If you turn over to the otherside you can see Dog the Bounty Hunter's views on social justice innit.

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