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Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. - 6/12/2008 11:32:59 AM

kittinSol

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WASHINGTON (AP) — The Supreme Court ruled Thursday that foreign terrorism suspects held at Guantanamo Bay have rights under the Constitution to challenge their detention in U.S. civilian courts.

In its third rebuke of the Bush administration's treatment of prisoners, the court ruled 5-4 that the government is violating the rights of prisoners being held indefinitely and without charges at the U.S. naval base in Cuba. The court's liberal justices were in the majority.

Justice Anthony Kennedy, writing for the court, said, "The laws and Constitution are designed to survive, and remain in force, in extraordinary times."

Kennedy said federal judges could ultimately order some detainees to be released, but that such orders would depend on security concerns and other circumstances.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iS3b8PdQ_oVlJA2eFtDvhnnTUvFwD918KL4O0

I just heard Bush's reaction on the radio: he says he's disappointed (ya think?). David Rifkin said it's 'tremendously arrogant' of the Supreme Court.

Comments?

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RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. - 6/12/2008 11:41:18 AM

Raechard

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In the paper today I noted a US citizen can be held for two days without charges. They were doing a comparison to the new 42 days in the UK, funny they didn't mention the ones that have been held in Cuba all this time.

If they have rights then they have the right to compensation for being held far longer than two days without charges. That's the problem it's almost a case of they have to be guilty or we are guilty of far worse.

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RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. - 6/12/2008 11:43:18 AM

kittinSol

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Some of these people have been held without charge for five years.

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RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. - 6/12/2008 11:47:40 AM

slvemike4u

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Scary part is the 5-4 ruling.4 Supreme Court justices feel detainees don' qualify for the rights we in America are supposed to fervently believe in...Any people giving up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither ...to parphrase Ben Franklin

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RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. - 6/12/2008 11:49:36 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

Comments?

Sure...

Justice Kennedy is a tribute the Reagan Presidency that nominated him.

To the specific issue; I think its fantastic that these persecuted individuals will be released. I trust they won't be put through the any restrictive ongoing surveillance, limited travel, restricted residency, and local registration process. That type of thing should be limited, as it is, to those labeled sex offenders after being caught pissing in public. These young men were driven by their convictions to a cause, egged on my generations of US exploitation of their homelands. They are fine upstanding representatives of their culture and religion should not have to live under such scrutiny.

In fact, next time anyone needs to piss in public, make it a political statement. Do it on the embers of the World Trade center. Yeah, the pit that once used to be my office may have gone cold, but there are still some pictures around. Keep one in your pocket with a lighter just in case you need to go.

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RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. - 6/12/2008 12:04:22 PM

kittinSol

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Could it possibly be that some of these people are completely innocent of the things they're being accused of (yet, not charged with anything)?

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RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. - 6/12/2008 12:06:43 PM

JohnSteed1967

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I say Screw them, Yeah You killed Americans, supported the Killing of Americans, or have information that we need. WHY should we care about your ass?

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RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. - 6/12/2008 12:08:23 PM

slvemike4u

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Don't think anyone is suggesting that we coddle actual terrorists....might it be enough if America lives up to its ideals and charges these actual terrorists,granting them some measure of "due process" find them guilty or release...how do we as a country decry human rights violations around the world when we seem to be having a hard time living up to the very ideals the Founding Fathers enumerated so well

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RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. - 6/12/2008 12:08:43 PM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

America lives up to its ideals and charges these actual terrorists,granting them some measure of "due process" find them guilty or release...how do we as a country decry human rights violations around the world when we seem to be having a hard time living up to the very ideals the Founding Fathers enumerated so well

I respect that very much. I don't exploit it as do the county's enemies. I also believe in reciprocity in all things but know that falls flat in the face of the 'Founding Fathers' original intent.

Along with "All men are created equal" was a fundamental fallacy that all me were fundamentally altruistic. If 9/11 brought a lesson it was that unilateral altruism is self destructive. Common courtesy and common amenity were used as weapons. How else could a mixture of fanaticism and box cutters bring down 220+ stories worth of buildings?

Ideally I agree with you, pragmatically while looking at a picture of the southern tip of Manhattan; I find a need for any and all other methods be used.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Could it possibly be that some of these people are completely innocent of the things they're being accused of (yet, not charged with anything)?

Absolutely! In approximately the same percentage of Republican politicians that you admire. Didn't that come across in my post?

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 6/12/2008 12:23:42 PM >

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RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. - 6/12/2008 12:09:04 PM

kittinSol

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Nice to see an educated, well-thought out opinion, devoid of emotional baggage and in tune with the legal aspects of habeas corpus.

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RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. - 6/12/2008 12:14:11 PM

MusicalBoredom

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I agree that all suspect have rights. A suspect is just that -- someone suspected of some wrong doing. A court is what decides if there is any basis of those suspicions. I'm sure some will argue this point by claiming the courts are saying that actual criminals should be freed or some other such nonsense. The rights that are being discussed are about holding the accusers responsible for backing up their accusations. It's also about basic checks and balances that prevent people from abusing the power they have.

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RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. - 6/12/2008 12:15:30 PM

slvemike4u

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Unfortunately Kittin in some quarters the legal niceties of "habeas corpus" came crashing down with those towers.Thereby ,IMO, handing the perpetrators of that heinous act their biggest victory...it is a shame....

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RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. - 6/12/2008 12:24:46 PM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Nice to see an educated, well-thought out opinion, devoid of emotional baggage and in tune with the legal aspects of habeas corpus.

Thank you!

As I said, I follow a rule of reciprocity.

Then again, I'm sure you've already considered the distinction between, prisoners of war and criminals; yet decided to only address the criminal aspect. People were held in this country and throughout Europe for years simply for wearing a certain color uniform.

It says that their cases can be heard. If when they are - its determined they are an prisoner of war - their status and condition won't be subject to change.

Or perhaps you don't belief we are at war. Fundamentally we have a difference of opinion and perspective in addressing the question. You are on the side of Justice Kennedy. I haven't yet read the opinion, but perhaps I am on the side of the minority opinion.

The winner will write the history books; meanwhile, I see no need of elucidating the thoughts or my education causing me to reach my opinion and conclusion.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 6/12/2008 12:33:31 PM >

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RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. - 6/12/2008 12:53:10 PM

Raechard

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
The winner will write the history books.

People say that but there isn't much truth in it in this day and age of indelible news reporting. Future generations will not look at history books of these events they will look at the information that is freely available and written by everyone who has a point of view on the subject. Thus then they will come to their own opinion and winning a war will never again guarantee it is seen in a good light.

We are not at war because in a war you have to declare your enemy and can’t just settle for non-descriptive phrases such as terrorists or terror. I find parking attendants pretty terrifying so maybe we can lock those types up with no rights.

< Message edited by Raechard -- 6/12/2008 12:54:30 PM >

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RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. - 6/12/2008 12:53:44 PM

slvemike4u

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Nice to see an educated, well-thought out opinion, devoid of emotional baggage and in tune with the legal aspects of habeas corpus.

Thank you!

As I said, I follow a rule of reciprocity.

Then again, I'm sure you've already considered the distinction between, prisoners of war and criminals; yet decided to only address the criminal aspect. People were held in this country and throughout Europe for years simply for wearing a certain color uniform.

It says that their cases can be heard. If when they are - its determined they are an prisoner of war - their status and condition won't be subject to change.

Or perhaps you don't belief we are at war. Fundamentally we have a difference of opinion and perspective in addressing the question. You are on the side of Justice Kennedy. I haven't yet read the opinion, but perhaps I am on the side of the minority opinion.

The winner will write the history books; meanwhile, I see no need of elucidating the thoughts or my education causing me to reach my opinion and conclusion.

Merc the problem in your analogy with Europe and prisoners of war is that all too often these are not people taken prisoner on a battlefield ,some of these prisoners are being held based on the acussation of a third, often paid, party.Yes we are at war we are also in murky waters and in danger of abandoning that which makes us better than those who would assail us

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RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. - 6/12/2008 12:59:54 PM

popeye1250

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Oh nice!
Some of those animals that they released already have gone back to fighting with al qeada.
This isn't a matter for our courts, this is a military matter.
This is why *all judges* should be elected.
The People need to have a LOT more control over *our* legal system.
After this ruling do you think we'll be taking any more "prisoners"?
From now on it'll be question them for ten minutes to see what you can get out of them then shoot them as spies.

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RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. - 6/12/2008 1:05:25 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnSteed1967

I say Screw them, Yeah You killed Americans, supported the Killing of Americans, or have information that we need. WHY should we care about your ass?

...because you missed out the other group of people there...the ones innocent of any crimes who have been falsely accused.
Another point, given the enormous political capital spent on maintaining the place, can any detainee now get a fair trial? Do too many people have too much invested to cope with the possibility that some may have been falsely (and arguably illegally) held for so many years?

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RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. - 6/12/2008 1:06:14 PM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

Merc the problem in your analogy with Europe and prisoners of war is that all too often these are not people taken prisoner on a battlefield.

mike,
Define "battlefield"?

I didn't know I was working in one. I'm sure all the clerical workers and restaurant workers didn't think they deserved hazard pay on 9/10/01.

quote:

Yes we are at war we are also in murky waters and in danger of abandoning that which makes us better than those who would assail us

It may be surprising, but I don't represent that we are "better". We have the foundation to be better but our standards and laws are not everyones. I find it incredibly ironic that this point is used in this discussion. Isn't one of the arguments against US intervention in the middle east pointed to applying a global 'Pax Americanus'? That's bad when it comes to the goal of setting up a Democratic Iraq. A democracy that can, and has every right, to vote to expel the US. At the same time we want to apply US Constitutional law to people taken from the 'battlefield', wherever that was in the world.

By the way, I use the Iraq war justification as a reference only. I think we should leave and let the locals get on with their century, no check that, millenniums old tradition of killing each other by the grace of their god and religious beliefs.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 6/12/2008 1:08:23 PM >

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RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. - 6/12/2008 1:07:33 PM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnSteed1967

I say Screw them, Yeah You killed Americans, supported the Killing of Americans, or have information that we need. WHY should we care about your ass?

...because you missed out the other group of people there...the ones innocent of any crimes who have been falsely accused.
Another point, given the enormous political capital spent on maintaining the place, can any detainee now get a fair trial? Do too many people have too much invested to cope with the possibility that some may have been falsely (and arguably illegally) held for so many years?

Phil, they won't "hold" them anymore.

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RE: Foreign terrorism suspects have rights. - 6/12/2008 1:37:12 PM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Nice to see an educated, well-thought out opinion, devoid of emotional baggage and in tune with the legal aspects of habeas corpus.

Thank you!

Note: my reply was addressed to JohnSteed...

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