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RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/13/2008 5:35:11 PM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Blame the government for not providing better info, at 200 pages they should have known it would be hard to follow every point.

Politesub, *200* pages?
And it's not a bureaucracy?
I see you blokes are having the same problems we are in Washington.
We have congressmen and senators who don't even read Bills before voting for them!

Hey, popeye, were you taught "bottom line up front" and "no more than a single page" as writing requirements in the Navy, like I was in the Army?

Sounds like none of our (and the EU's) lawmakers ever heard of the "no passive voice!" rule ...

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 21

RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/13/2008 5:50:31 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

BT "Brevity".
BT

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 22

RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/13/2008 6:15:42 PM

UtopianRanger

Posts: 3251
Status: offline

quote:

Doesn't it seem like every time the EU is subject to a popular election ... it loses?

Firm

Let me preface this by saying I love the ''fight'' the Irish people have inside of them.....and their stubborn need to be independent is but a virtue....

A direct parallel to this dilemma would be the overwhelming opposition that forms when bureaucrats and public officials propose mergers within cities and say high schools.

The electorate almost always votes in opposition because they want to retain their identity/autonomy and independence.

To paraphrase a quote from John Gotti out of the book '' Mob Star '' - '' When we really need the job done right, we call on the Irish ''

- R

PS - Anyone here think they know what would have happened had NAFTA and GAT been put before a vote of the American people? ; }

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 23

RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/13/2008 6:57:45 PM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

PS - Anyone here think they know what would have happened had NAFTA and GAT been put before a vote of the American people? ; }

"I'll take "Crash and Burn" for 500, Alex ..."

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to UtopianRanger)

Post #: 24

RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/13/2008 7:16:09 PM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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How the Irish Saved Civilization

... again?

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 25

RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/13/2008 10:27:31 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

quote:

Doesn't it seem like every time the EU is subject to a popular election ... it loses?

Firm

Let me preface this by saying I love the ''fight'' the Irish people have inside of them.....and their stubborn need to be independent is but a virtue....

A direct parallel to this dilemma would be the overwhelming opposition that forms when bureaucrats and public officials propose mergers within cities and say high schools.

The electorate almost always votes in opposition because they want to retain their identity/autonomy and independence.

To paraphrase a quote from John Gotti out of the book '' Mob Star '' - '' When we really need the job done right, we call on the Irish ''

- R

PS - Anyone here think they know what would have happened had NAFTA and GAT been put before a vote of the American people? ; }

Ranger, I'm a big fan of The People having a LOT more power in this country.
And what makes those guys that Gotti was refferring to very dangerous is that they don't want to be "famous" like he was.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to UtopianRanger)

Post #: 26

RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/14/2008 1:07:03 AM

Zensee

Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

The UK should have joined with Canada and Australia and we would be unstoppable. lol
Cricket in the summer Ice Hockey in the winter and Fish and Chips all year round.

We may have a problem with Zensee, but nothing that carnt be handled.

No problem with me, seeks - I am both a Canukistani and a British Subject already. In like flint!

Now doesn't that warm your stony little Tory heart?

Keeping an eye on the neighbours,
Z.

_____________________________

"Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water." (proverb)

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

Post #: 27

RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/14/2008 3:41:02 AM

RealityLicks

Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline

Funny how things turn out. I think the referendum was the right result for the wrong reasons. Corruption charges marred Bertie Ahern's seemingly pure image, he scarpered and the new Taoiseach (sp?) didn't have the time - or possibly the nous - to organise the "yes" vote. The Irish were really indicating their distrust of the political class, not their view on the referendum.

I think, though, that it was the right result - although I am broadly pro-European. This isn't because of the changes in the Treaty; my understanding is that it was primarily organisational stuff and we had opt-outs on anything which impinged on real sovereignty issues. The real problem is that the EU is sliding away from the progressive left future I imagined and toward a neo-liberal one which spells misery for the people and profits for the corporations.

The irony is that all the little englanders have applauded the noises about internal markets on health - which would decimate our NHS, btw ... and make the bio/med firms billions. They have been thrilled to see EU commisioners following the Yank's example in tying aid in the developing countries to market liberalisation measures - maximising profits and killing infants by the thousand.

I've had to revise my thinking (unusual, for one so gifted

) in the face of the increasing tendency to deny elected national representatives and others to influence thinking at Commisioner level, while happily entertaining lobbyists from big business. This bears all the hallmarks of what is worse about American politics. That's something I believed we would see less, not more of and I was wrong. For that reason, I hope the brakes are applied on the EU, although engaging reverse is not yet to be contemplated.

(in reply to Zensee)

Post #: 28

RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/14/2008 3:46:35 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Meat, the pro EU politicians never lie do they ? Oh except when England had a referendum in the 70`s and we got told the EU was just a trade agreement. You think its so wonderful, explain why the EU havent been able to provide an audit in the last 14 years. Its just an unaccountable old boys network for failed politicians.

In the 70s it was just a trade agreement and if people listened to the pro-European politicians they would have known there was greater ambitions for the then EEC. IT IS ACTUALLY THERE IN BLACK AND WHITE IN THE TREATY OF ROME which had been around for about 17 years at the time of the referendum and was one of the reasons I voted yes, precisely because there was ambitions for a European Union. You might not have been aware of those ambitions because you wasn't listening or because the British media doesn't report on Europe, prefering instead to report on America.

If the EU is an unaccountable old boys network its because of the national politicians you vote for.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 6/14/2008 4:01:03 AM >

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Post #: 29

RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/14/2008 3:57:06 AM

meatcleaver

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Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Blame the government for not providing better info, at 200 pages they should have known it would be hard to follow every point.

But it is the government's fault. It is member governments that control the EU not some faceless bureaucracy in Brussels. Though the British government does likes to blame a faceless bureaucracy for agreements it has made which is why the British government is so hypocritical and disingenuous on the EU.

If the EU was really so bad for Britian and was making decisions that were anti British interes, British politicians wouldn't be blaming the EU, it would leave. The truth is successive British government (both partys) have blamed the EU for everything, even British government decisions, even things that are nothing to do with the EU, they now find it impossible to admit all the lies they have told.

I don't know if you can speak any foreign languages but if you did, you would get a completely different picture of the EU than is portrayed in Britain and one that is nearer the truth.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 30

RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/14/2008 4:35:48 AM

seeksfemslave

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Joined: 6/16/2006
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Being pro European means what ? I am pro European in the fraternal sense but NOT in the sense that requires layers of difficult to control politicians and behind the scenes bureauscrats (sic)

It costs too much to be a member. The Common Agricultural Policy featherbeds the French farmer. We can feather bed our own farmers and public skoolboys thank you very much We have a massive balance of payment deficit and we have uncontrolled immigration of people doing seasonal jobs and those low payed jobs our welfare scroungers wont or carnt do.

There was talk of a common foreign policy, a sure recipe to do "not a lot" and the obvious aim is a Federal Europe.
I dont want that. We carnt control own politicos let alone the European types who talk so I carnt undertand them

So I say lets have a referendum on any major policy change and if that fails see if we can find a gun boat and send that.

(in reply to RealityLicks)

Post #: 31

RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/14/2008 6:15:06 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Being pro European means what ? I am pro European in the fraternal sense but NOT in the sense that requires layers of difficult to control politicians and behind the scenes bureauscrats (sic)

You only have to control British politicians but the problem is, the British electoral system is unresponsive to the British voter, that is not a European problem but a British one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
It costs too much to be a member. The Common Agricultural Policy featherbeds the French farmer. We can feather bed our own farmers and public skoolboys thank you very much We have a massive balance of payment deficit and we have uncontrolled immigration of people doing seasonal jobs and those low payed jobs our welfare scroungers wont or carnt do.

While France gets a large share of the CAP budget, it doesn't feather bed the French farmer, it is the large industrial farms that get the money and Britian has the most industrial farms in western Europe so large British farmers do OK.

There is a labour shortage in Britain for seasonal work because of the decline of the pound to the Euro and farmers are worried they won't be able to harvest their crops. (I guess you'd be volunteering to work in the fields seeks?)

As for the massive balance of payment deficits, that wouldn't disappear whether Britian was in or out of the EU, the problem is that Britain doesn't make anything anymore and the services Britain provides are on the whole, not what people want.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
There was talk of a common foreign policy, a sure recipe to do "not a lot" and the obvious aim is a Federal Europe.
I dont want that. We carnt control own politicos let alone the European types who talk so I carnt undertand them

With a common foreign policy Britain wouldn't be involved in an illegal war in Iraq and would be more concerned with a common European defence policy. A far more intelligent way to run a foreign policy than threatening to bomb everyone that wants to use a different currency to sell oil and the like.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 6/14/2008 6:18:49 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

Post #: 32

RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/14/2008 6:31:44 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

How the Irish Saved Civilization

... again?

You do know that this is an overly romantic view of history and these monks were as much Scotish as Irish and St Patrick was from what is now England and anyway, what we have to day in secular northern Europe is not so much a christian legacy but mainly a barbarian legacy where monarchs don't have divine rights but are there by the grace of the people, women have rights, god should be kept out of ones life and the brutality of civilisation should be controled.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 6/14/2008 6:33:34 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 33

RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/14/2008 10:19:39 AM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Being pro European means what ? I am pro European in the fraternal sense but NOT in the sense that requires layers of difficult to control politicians and behind the scenes bureauscrats (sic)

It costs too much to be a member. The Common Agricultural Policy featherbeds the French farmer. We can feather bed our own farmers and public skoolboys thank you very much We have a massive balance of payment deficit and we have uncontrolled immigration of people doing seasonal jobs and those low payed jobs our welfare scroungers wont or carnt do.

There was talk of a common foreign policy, a sure recipe to do "not a lot" and the obvious aim is a Federal Europe.
I dont want that. We carnt control own politicos let alone the European types who talk so I carnt undertand them

So I say lets have a referendum on any major policy change and if that fails see if we can find a gun boat and send that.

Seeks, I can't figure out that "uncontrolled immigration" bit.
I have a theory that for whatever reason the upper classes feel "guilty" about something and this is their way of assuaging that guilt to the detriment of the "lesser" classes.
Am I close?

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

Post #: 34

RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/14/2008 11:13:20 AM

seeksfemslave

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Joined: 6/16/2006
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Popeye: I havent the foggiest idea what our rulers are trying to achieve with their ridiculous immigration policy.
Just prove how "nice" they are I think while on the side they screw the Brit. taxpayer for every penny they can get.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 35

RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/14/2008 11:20:31 AM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Popeye: I havent the foggiest idea what our rulers are trying to achieve with their ridiculous immigration policy.
Just prove how "nice" they are I think while on the side they screw the Brit. taxpayer for every penny they can get.

Seeks, and when you ask them why this is happening they refer to some vague, "agreements or treaties" that "they" have,..."no control over" and that were made without the approval of The People for some strange reason.
If "they" have no control over them then who does have control over them pray tell?
And we're supposed to just "accept" that excuse?
Simple, just get out of those treaties or agreements.
You know, things like this make one wonder exactly just who our governments are "serving."
Pulling teeth shouldn't be easier than getting *straight answers* out of these people!
There shouldn't be a feeling of "Us vs The Govt" in Western countries!
Seeks, why don't you apply for one of those "Ministry" jobs!
If they don't want you "stirring up the shit" then you *know* they're trying to hide something from us!

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 6/14/2008 11:34:08 AM >

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

Post #: 36

RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/14/2008 2:09:09 PM

Politesub53

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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Realitylicks

The irony is that all the little englanders have applauded the noises about internal markets on health - which would decimate our NHS, btw ... and make the bio/med firms billions. They have been thrilled to see EU commisioners following the Yank's example in tying aid in the developing countries to market liberalisation measures - maximising profits and killing infants by the thousand.

Have you any links to back up your assertion please ?

(in reply to RealityLicks)

Post #: 37

RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/14/2008 2:53:12 PM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

With a common foreign policy Britain wouldn't be involved in an illegal war in Iraq and would be more concerned with a common European defence policy. A far more intelligent way to run a foreign policy than threatening to bomb everyone that wants to use a different currency to sell oil and the like.

No point having a foreign policy when France and Germany both broke agreed UN sanctions. What would i know though, only having both parties lie about everything. Ironically in 1975 the Labour party voted to leave the EEC. So much for a democratic leadership by Wilson.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 38

RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/14/2008 5:01:13 PM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

in a question of centralization vs decentralization, the de wins.

if all 50 states are part of the untited states, during our entire lifetime...it will be surprising.

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 39

RE: Ireland Rejects EU treaty - 6/14/2008 11:43:28 PM

RealityLicks

Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Have you any links to back up your assertion please ?

Oui, d'accord. Health:

quote:

Referring to an internal disagreement within the Commission, the diplomat also argued that McCreevy and Verheugen, who want to liberalise healthcare services to the maximum, did not want to present the proposal as it stood before Christmas, as they feared it would have got worse in the Parliament and even guaranteed less rights to patients as currently provided by ECJ rulings. Conversely, "Wallström appears to think that the proposal goes too far with privatisation," added the diplomat.

http://www.euractiv.com/en/health/stakeholders-urge-action-health-services-directive/article-170760

quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank Dobson

"The well-off will be able to pay in advance and wait to be reimbursed, they will be able to pay top-up costs if they need it and they will be able to afford the costs of travel," he said.
"Badly off people will not be able to do any of those things."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7231646.stm

Foreign aid:

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp

Bear in mind that the figures in the above link include the US and other countries but they paint a good global picture of aid activity through the World Bank. And that I haven't been to bed yet.

I am pro-EU but not if it is to be run purely for the benefit of corporate profits - or to benefit member-states at the expense of the world's poor. I am not impressed by the passive-aggressive insinuation that only the multi-lingual are supporters of the EU and I hope you agree that that's a fucking ludicrous position.

Anyway, Brazilian immigrants are all the rage in the best postcodes these days. Scolari, wo-oh, Scolari, wo-oh-oh-oh.

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 40

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