RE: Idolization of Dominants

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AquaticSub -> RE: Idolization of Dominants (6/16/2008 5:38:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit Okay...fair enough. So let me put what I am getting at in different terms... If your Owner tells you to get off the couch and wash the dishes and you don't want to do it, are you gonna tell him to piss off or are you going to bite the bullet, get up, and do the dishes because he is your Owner? The principle of what I am getting at is hard to communicate and I can't seem to find the perfect word to narrow it down. Sure I'd get up and do the dishes, but I'm honestly not clear on the connectyion between doing what he wants and idolizing him. C~ Agreed. I desire for him to have authority over me (otherwise I wouldn't be in this relationship and probably not on these fourms). He can't have authority over me if I don't obey, not unless he wants to break out a weapon anyway.

girlygurl -> RE: Idolization of Dominants (6/16/2008 5:47:51 PM)
I did idolize Him in the beginning (and still do to a certain extent). In my opinion idolization will result in failure and disappointment. My respect for Sir is mighty! I believe respect is a key component whereas idolization is a fleeting thang.... IMO of course girly

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Idolization of Dominants (6/16/2008 6:17:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs I've seen my owner at very low and very high points and while I love, adore, and respect him I don't idolize or revere him, rather I love him for exactly who he is. C~ Now I idolize my partner exactly because of who he is. He can be quite awe inspiring to me.

InsaenPleasures -> RE: Idolization of Dominants (6/16/2008 6:52:32 PM)
I think idolization is dangerous and de-humanizing. All de-humanization is not meant to 'put down' but can also be meant to 'uplift' and I think its something that should avoided. By both parties. I know no one who is a paragon of Domliness or submissiveness so to idolize anyone is a dangerous path to follow. Of course like many things people may define idolize than I do. To me the word has always had a dangerous connotation to it. Logan

MadRabbit -> RE: Idolization of Dominants (6/16/2008 10:09:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs Sure I'd get up and do the dishes, but I'm honestly not clear on the connectyion between doing what he wants and idolizing him. C~ I've been trying to get from A to B on this one, but haven't been doing a good job on it. It also comes down to how you view idolization. I find the phrase "I will do it because he is my Owner/Dominant/Master/God/Insert Metaphysical Entity Here" to be kind of amazing, because it brings forth the question of "So what?". In a consensual power based relationship, there is nothing that elevates him to this position besides the submissive/slave's belief that he/she is such. A look I give my girl can bring her to her knees, but that same look on another person would have little to no effect outside of maybe annoying them and making them think I am an overbearing prick. The reason for that is because my girl perceives me as her Dominant/Owner/Master/Whatever and thus in her mind, allows me to have that influence over her. If she doesn't perceive me as such and perceives me as a boring incompetent loser, there isn't probably going to be much of an authority dynamic forming. Now, when comparing these relations with other relations, I find only one that really bares much similarity: the relationship between a man and his God. If I don't believe in the authority of my boss, he can still fire me. If don't believe in the authority of a local traffic cop, he can still write me a ticket. If I don't believe in the authority and power God has over my life, then that authority and power does not exist. A little too sophistic? Maybe, but I am an Atheist and this theory of mine comes from the opinion that God didn't create man in his own image, but man creates his own God in his image. Thus if I don't believe in God's power, then it doesn't exist and if a submissive doesn't believe in my authority, it sure as hell doesn't exist (Unless I want to get a gun as AquaticSub noted). As such, I consider submissives to be making idols out of Dominants in the same way people make idols out of fictitious Gods. It may not necessarily have religious or spiritual connections, but the concept is the same. When I say "elevates his word above everyone elses", I mean elevating him to a position of authority that other people do not have over you in the same way people elevate a God to a position where the God has an influence over their life : the power of belief. This is just how I see it and I am sure since I have gone a few miles over the "blasphemy" line, it might be a bit hard to digest for some people. Feel free to disagree.

trueshadow -> RE: Idolization of Dominants (6/16/2008 10:24:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Usako I'm not into the whole idolizing and worshiping someone. I find it silly. I don't mind being pampered but it annoys me when it turns into worshiping. The only person I want to be an idol to is my children (if I ever have them.) For me, worshipping a woman is the ultimate in submissive behavior. I want her totally above me and me completely beneath her. It's difficult to find a woman who wants/is comfortable with being worshipped. So I don't mention it much anymore. In my heart and mind, though, that is the goal. To worship everything about her.

MadRabbit -> RE: Idolization of Dominants (6/16/2008 10:38:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub In our relationship, we wouldn't even go as far as to say that he is more important. As in our quote, without me there to submit there is nothing for him to control. Without a target to hit, the flogger is just as useless as when there is no one to wield it. I say "more important" not out of ego-centrism or, as I mentiioned before, superiority over the submissive, but because I have a hierarchy I generally follow when deciding what gets done in what order which goes... 1. Both my needs and her needs. 2. My wants. 3. Her wants. What can I say? I am into self-gratification and not ashamed of it in the least. I serve her in my own way with what I offer and bring to the tables and consider such to be my prime responsibility, but foot rubs, back rubs, bathing, and blowjobs are nice perks. Luckily, I pick partners who find fulfillment and happiness in gratifying me.

AquaticSub -> RE: Idolization of Dominants (6/16/2008 11:15:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit I say "more important" not out of ego-centrism or, as I mentiioned before, superiority over the submissive, but because I have a hierarchy I generally follow when deciding what gets done in what order which goes... 1. Both my needs and her needs. 2. My wants. 3. Her wants. What can I say? I am into self-gratification and not ashamed of it in the least. I serve her in my own way with what I offer and bring to the tables and consider such to be my prime responsibility, but foot rubs, back rubs, bathing, and blowjobs are nice perks. Luckily, I pick partners who find fulfillment and happiness in gratifying me. I wouldn't think you would Rabbit. I hope my words weren't coming across to say that you did. If so I apologize. I'd say that for us it flows much the same way - I do take pleasure in pleasing him or I'd be on the other side of the whip. He very much enjoys his own pleasure - otherwise he'd be on the other side as well. [:)] Simply that we don't see the term "important" as having much to do with it for our own relationship, and hence don't believe it is required for these relationships. More a "lock meets key" situation where neither does you much good on it's own but together you can go where you want to with everyone's core wants (his want to control and mine to be controlled) and needs being met.

Usako -> RE: Idolization of Dominants (6/17/2008 12:44:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: trueshadow quote: ORIGINAL: Usako I'm not into the whole idolizing and worshiping someone. I find it silly. I don't mind being pampered but it annoys me when it turns into worshiping. The only person I want to be an idol to is my children (if I ever have them.) For me, worshipping a woman is the ultimate in submissive behavior. I want her totally above me and me completely beneath her. It's difficult to find a woman who wants/is comfortable with being worshipped. So I don't mention it much anymore. In my heart and mind, though, that is the goal. To worship everything about her. See, everything. That's what kills me. No one is perfect or god on Earth. I see so many people say they want to worship any and every part of their man/woman to the point of eating their shit? C'mon. My poo isn't magically just because it came from me. It stinks just like yours! Sometimes when someone gets in that "worshiping" mode I ask them why. Why do they think I'm so great. And what pisses me off even more is the answer "Because you are." I have too many flaws to be a goddess. I don't mind someone being underneath me but not blind worshiping.

colouredin -> RE: Idolization of Dominants (6/17/2008 1:29:57 AM)
My personal feelings would be in line with LA's term awe inspiring. Every D/s relationship has involved an element of that with me. I think I need to find something that envokes that so that I actually want to make him happy, if he was a bit thick and dull I wouldnt want to. However I dont think thats the same as Idolising, I dont place the person in a higher position I am drawn to people who exude something a bit special. Idolising to me implies an element of infallability which no person can have, I do think that is something that some subs are in line with though who look through rose tinted glasses. However in regards to the idea of worship I think thats really just a word that people often like the implication of it in line with the talk about female supremacy.

MasterFireMaam -> RE: Idolization of Dominants (6/17/2008 2:02:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit More important? Sure, but not superior. I heard a slave in my area say, "We are equal in statue, but not in status." That really made sense to me...I'm guessing it might to you, as well. Master Fire

rubberpet -> RE: Idolization of Dominants (6/17/2008 3:09:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit idolize To make an idol of, or to worship as an idol. To adore excessively; to revere immoderately. In my book, respect is the grease in the gears of a successful power based relationship. Respect for my character and who I am as a person and respect for my authority in the relationship. This isn't to say that respect that doesn't go both ways and that respect for a submissive isn't important, but I am just focusing on one side of the equation. As such, I have found that my successful power based relations always had some degree of idolization involved and will even go as far as to say that idolization of the dominant is a necessary element. Do you agree or disagree? Do you find that idolization of a person can be a double-edged sword? Placing someone on a pedestal can make the fall to the ground twice as hard when confronted with the problems of human fallacy. I view Mistress as a goddess. To me, there is no one above Her. I do my very best everyday to show Her that She deserves to be on the pedestal on which She sits. She is the greatest thing to ever come into my life and will be treated as such. She is, however, human and subject to flaws, flubs, and making mistakes like the rest of us. I keep both views of Her in equal doses. As long as I keep both views in focus, there is no unrealistic expectations put upon Her, but She always knows how special and precious She is to me. [:)]

celticlord2112 -> RE: Idolization of Dominants (6/17/2008 4:07:21 AM)
quote: As such, I consider submissives to be making idols out of Dominants in the same way people make idols out of fictitious Gods. It may not necessarily have religious or spiritual connections, but the concept is the same. When I say "elevates his word above everyone elses", I mean elevating him to a position of authority that other people do not have over you in the same way people elevate a God to a position where the God has an influence over their life : the power of belief. Setting aside the question of whether deities are real or imagined, I disagree with your assessment of the psychology involved. Strictly speaking, there is no question of "believing" in a power dynamic. This is true whether we are discussing the workplace or the lifestyle. When my slave says I am her master, that is for her a statement of fact, an articulation of demonstrable reality. Belief is predicated on the absence of proof. That I stand before my slave is proof of my reality in her life. That she chooses to kneel before me is proof that I am her master. What drives the dynamic is not belief, but rather choice. I am her master because she chooses to submit to my authority, and because I choose to wield authority over her. Thus, when a slave says "I will do it because he is my owner/master", that is not an expression of belief but rather an affirmation of the choice she has made to submit. To disobey, to refuse, is to deny the master's authority, and, by extension, to recant the choice previously made of submission. Following your analogies of the workplace and the traffic cop, you choose to submit to the authority of your superiors at work, you choose to obey the dictates of the traffic cop. If you choose not to submit in these cases, the consequences of not submitting follow rather directly: The consequence of not submitting to your boss' authority is not having a boss--because you don't have a job. For the submissive in a D/s relationship, the consequence of not submitting is not having D/s relationship. Ever and always, the defining factor here is choice. We choose to live this way, we choose to rule and be ruled. Belief, as such, is not relevant. (I could extend the argument into the theistic realm as well, but that discussion requires a considerable quantity of Scotch and it's way too early in the day for that!)

MadRabbit -> RE: Idolization of Dominants (6/17/2008 6:44:20 AM)
Wow, that is a really good argument. Thank you for posting that, celticlord2112. It's been awhile since anyone really challenged one of my ideas and made me think about it. I appreciate it. quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 Strictly speaking, there is no question of "believing" in a power dynamic. This is true whether we are discussing the workplace or the lifestyle. When my slave says I am her master, that is for her a statement of fact, an articulation of demonstrable reality. Belief is predicated on the absence of proof. That I stand before my slave is proof of my reality in her life. That she chooses to kneel before me is proof that I am her master. I think that it depends on what you are talking about. If we are talking about a theory of God, then yes, it is based on the absence of proof, but when it comes to other metaphysical things, it's not a question of absence of proof. The simplest example would be "good" and "evil". They are not physical entities nor is there a question if they are, so proof or absence of proof isn't the question. Their existence or lack of existence is based on whether or not we as individuals value things to be good or evil. I consider our relationships to be kind of the same way, because it might be a fact that you are standing before her as a man, whether you are perceived as a Master or just another Average Joe is still determined by what she believes you to be. quote: For the submissive in a D/s relationship, the consequence of not submitting is not having D/s relationship. Fair enough, but if we carry that to it's logical conclusion, then the authority a Dominant has dissolves with the relationship ending as opposed to other aspects of life where the authority or the position of authority remains constant. Taking that into count is why I am of the opinion that this is all born in the mind. Someone can still be a boss or a traffic cop long after my relations end with them, because these positions of authority are defined by society. But... quote: Ever and always, the defining factor here is choice. We choose to live this way, we choose to rule and be ruled. Belief, as such, is not relevant. I am gonna have to roll over on this one, because there is always the argument that "She isn't really a slave unless I think of her as one"...so....choice is still the best to word to define the nature of the relationship. I don't think belief is irrelevant. Someone can make a choice to enter into the relationship, but that sole action doesn't equal it's success. If they enter into it thinking. "Yeah, right. Like I am really going to wash the dishes. What a fucking loser.", things are probably not going to be kittens and daffodils. These are just my observations and my thoughts and not trying to present it as the great truism for everyone to view their relationships. quote: (I could extend the argument into the theistic realm as well, but that discussion requires a considerable quantity of Scotch and it's way too early in the day for that!) Yeah, no shit lol.

cantilena -> RE: Idolization of Dominants (6/17/2008 6:50:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: As such, I consider submissives to be making idols out of Dominants in the same way people make idols out of fictitious Gods. It may not necessarily have religious or spiritual connections, but the concept is the same. When I say "elevates his word above everyone elses", I mean elevating him to a position of authority that other people do not have over you in the same way people elevate a God to a position where the God has an influence over their life : the power of belief. Setting aside the question of whether deities are real or imagined, I disagree with your assessment of the psychology involved. Strictly speaking, there is no question of "believing" in a power dynamic. This is true whether we are discussing the workplace or the lifestyle. When my slave says I am her master, that is for her a statement of fact, an articulation of demonstrable reality. Belief is predicated on the absence of proof. That I stand before my slave is proof of my reality in her life. That she chooses to kneel before me is proof that I am her master. What drives the dynamic is not belief, but rather choice. I am her master because she chooses to submit to my authority, and because I choose to wield authority over her. Thus, when a slave says "I will do it because he is my owner/master", that is not an expression of belief but rather an affirmation of the choice she has made to submit. To disobey, to refuse, is to deny the master's authority, and, by extension, to recant the choice previously made of submission. Following your analogies of the workplace and the traffic cop, you choose to submit to the authority of your superiors at work, you choose to obey the dictates of the traffic cop. If you choose not to submit in these cases, the consequences of not submitting follow rather directly: The consequence of not submitting to your boss' authority is not having a boss--because you don't have a job. For the submissive in a D/s relationship, the consequence of not submitting is not having D/s relationship. Ever and always, the defining factor here is choice. We choose to live this way, we choose to rule and be ruled. Belief, as such, is not relevant. (I could extend the argument into the theistic realm as well, but that discussion requires a considerable quantity of Scotch and it's way too early in the day for that!) This post got me to thinking. I agree with a lot of it, but in a healthy relationship, doesn't choice follow belief of some kind? For me, very strong belief - if not a classicly defined case of idolization - in the dominant's abilities, judgement and vision must exist before the choice to submit. So in some ways, can't it both? Yes, we express our choice to submit when we do so, but also perhaps a reaffirmation of our belief in the dominant's qualities we so admired in the first place.... Still thinking... :)

celticlord2112 -> RE: Idolization of Dominants (6/17/2008 7:21:46 AM)
quote: This post got me to thinking. I agree with a lot of it, but in a healthy relationship, doesn't choice follow belief of some kind? For me, very strong belief - if not a classicly defined case of idolization - in the dominant's abilities, judgement and vision must exist before the choice to submit. So in some ways, can't it both? Yes, we express our choice to submit when we do so, but also perhaps a reaffirmation of our belief in the dominant's qualities we so admired in the first place.... We could have great fun splitting hairs here, I think. My answer to this is that qualities are perceived, and thus are an empirical reality rather than something believed. However, from those perceptions comes a willingness to trust (if there is to be a D/s dynamic, at least), and trust is arguably a form of belief. In that regard, yes, there is both. The shades of meaning we individually apply to words makes this discussion particularly challenging, because by definition we are not all on the same page.

cantilena -> RE: Idolization of Dominants (6/17/2008 8:52:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: This post got me to thinking. I agree with a lot of it, but in a healthy relationship, doesn't choice follow belief of some kind? For me, very strong belief - if not a classicly defined case of idolization - in the dominant's abilities, judgement and vision must exist before the choice to submit. So in some ways, can't it both? Yes, we express our choice to submit when we do so, but also perhaps a reaffirmation of our belief in the dominant's qualities we so admired in the first place.... We could have great fun splitting hairs here, I think. My answer to this is that qualities are perceived, and thus are an empirical reality rather than something believed. However, from those perceptions comes a willingness to trust (if there is to be a D/s dynamic, at least), and trust is arguably a form of belief. In that regard, yes, there is both. The shades of meaning we individually apply to words makes this discussion particularly challenging, because by definition we are not all on the same page. My head hurts now. Thanks! Be that as it may, I think you're right. We could have great fun with a hair splitting contest... but it's one of the things I do best... :P I've been trying to wrap my brain around any difference between extensive belief in another's admirable qualities and the empirical reality/trust you're referencing. Another word might be faith. Yet another might be, well, idolization (ok, I'm stretching there.) I can't really see much difference at all. A person might have a set of qualities one person finds enchanting while someone else finds the same set of qualities repulsive. It's all subjective... I think the question may be, "Is it necessary for some form of qualitative faith in the dominant necessary in order for a sub to take the leap into a D/s dynamic?" As you suggest, that faith may may not be justifiable to anybody other than the submissive in question (and it may be misplaced...), yet I do think that the fundamental belief in him or her must exist. Maybe not to the extent of placing another on a pedestal, but therein may lie yet another difference among relationship and relationship styles. My head still hurts. LOL!

metalmiss -> RE: Idolization of Dominants (6/17/2008 4:39:46 PM)
i agree 100%.. Do i idolise my Master? Yes.. To some extent. As you quite rightly put it, a power exchange relationship would have trouble working if i didn't. i look up to Him, because i have a lot to look up to Him for.. Thats the way it works, i am His slave. But there is a fine line between idolisation and blowing things out of proportion.. If i started kissing His ass too much He would be the first to set me back on track.

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