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Train The Master topics - 11/2/2005 7:05:26 PM   
Elegant


Posts: 1024
Joined: 3/15/2005
Status: offline 		Masters, Dominants, Owners and other D-types:

There is always discussion and questions on what a slave or other S-type person should learn..what subjects 'training' should cover. D-types (Masters, Dominants, Owners) often speak of skills training to include formal dining service, manicures, pedicures, massage, etiquette, cooking, protocol etc ad nauseum.

What about 'training' for the D-types? I am not refering to play techniques (throwing a whip, shibari etc) but, rather, to general life skills. Do you know how to actually receive a drink from someone (not just your own S-type)? Can you properly introduce people at formal social functions? Will you embarasses yourself or make a major protocol faux pas at your 'club'?

What 'training' would you like to have or do you think is necessary for your life?

_____________________________

Elegant
~Slave To Master Archer

http://www.FantasiesInLeather.com
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Train The Master topics - 11/2/2005 7:21:54 PM   
Jacques1000


Posts: 273
Joined: 10/30/2005
Status: offline 		Apologies for those who read my last post but:

1. Read widely and voraciously...develop a library around core interests and cognate subjects
2. Watch others observantly to intertwine theory and praxis
3. Listen attentively to others and ask questions no matter how asinine you think they are...
4. Talk to other D-types with more and less experience and weigh their views and advices..

& finally, a little bit cheekily, consider the services of a trusted D as a mentor/demonstrator.

I am still learning and I would not want it any other way....

(in reply to Elegant)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Train The Master topics - 11/2/2005 7:21:59 PM   
KittenWithaTwist


Posts: 490
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline 		I would hope that the kinds of "training" that you're suggesting for dominants would come from general life experience. My mother was a fan of Miss Manners, and while we never had dinner parties when I was a kid, I did learn general mannerisms from her.

As for the submissive "training" you mentioned, I would have to learn most of the things you mentioned. I know the basics of manicures and pedicures (from years of receiving them), and my partner claims that I am a decent cook. But I would have to learn massage techniques, dining service, and whatever protocols he might wish.

_____________________________

"Time travel: It's a cornocopia of disturbing concepts." ~Ron Stoppable

(in reply to Elegant)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Train The Master topics - 11/2/2005 9:06:02 PM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elegant

Masters, Dominants, Owners and other D-types:

There is always discussion and questions on what a slave or other S-type person should learn..what subjects 'training' should cover. D-types (Masters, Dominants, Owners) often speak of skills training to include formal dining service, manicures, pedicures, massage, etiquette, cooking, protocol etc ad nauseum.

What about 'training' for the D-types? I am not refering to play techniques (throwing a whip, shibari etc) but, rather, to general life skills. Do you know how to actually receive a drink from someone (not just your own S-type)? Can you properly introduce people at formal social functions? Will you embarasses yourself or make a major protocol faux pas at your 'club'?

What 'training' would you like to have or do you think is necessary for your life?


Until about a year ago I used to travel the country given classes and demos. It was a wonderful experience and I think everyone envolved benefited a lot. However, in many cases it was preaching to the converted. Almost everywhere I went I heard comments like "I wish **** could have seen this." Sadly the people who most often need "training" fail to seek it out.

I did notice that those who showed up were a wonderful pool for submissives seeking a good partner

_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to Elegant)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Train The Master topics - 11/2/2005 9:19:33 PM   
DesertRat


Posts: 2774
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: NM/USA
Status: offline 		John, I understand that you're not doing the classes and demos anymore, correct? Just want to say that if you ever are doing anything like that in New Mexico or West Texas, please let me know. I'd love to attend.

Bob

(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Train The Master topics - 11/2/2005 10:28:50 PM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertRat

John, I understand that you're not doing the classes and demos anymore, correct? Just want to say that if you ever are doing anything like that in New Mexico or West Texas, please let me know. I'd love to attend.

Bob


There's one coming up on Oklahoma in April. I haven't details on the location yet (You know the drill, get picked up at airport, taken to hotel, returned to airport... sorta like a terrorist kidnapping but with sex)

I haven't stopped doing the demos but between a heart attack/stroke and the chaos of moving from Boston to Florida I've gotten a bit more selective. As you can understand sitting in a aircraft for long periods isn't the most healthy thing to do.

_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to DesertRat)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Train The Master topics - 11/3/2005 6:41:54 AM   
Elegant


Posts: 1024
Joined: 3/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

What 'training' would you like to have or do you think is necessary for your life?


Jacques1000 listed ways he suggests to get the training but what I am asking is what training would you like..in other words: what specific subjects would you, personally, like to learn. (again, not play technique)


KittenWithaTwist stated
quote:

I would hope that the kinds of "training" that you're suggesting for dominants would come from general life experience.


Hopes and actuality are two different things. It's amazing, even with 'proper' upbringing, how many people today do not know how to graciously accept service, how to interact in formal situations...hell, even how to be polite in general society.

If a D-type wants his S-type to learn formal dinner service (or even how to serve him casually on a nightly basis) does he, in turn know how to properly pass the salt and pepper or what to do with the dinner napkin when leaving the table during the dinner? If this does not matter to him when interacting with his S-type that is one point but what about when interacting with other people?

If a D-type wants his S-type to dress a specific way does he also know the generally accepted attire for different social situations in vanilla and leather society?

It's a two way street. What street do the D-types want to travel?

_____________________________

Elegant
~Slave To Master Archer

http://www.FantasiesInLeather.com

(in reply to Elegant)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Train The Master topics - 11/3/2005 7:17:44 AM   
krazysubbiekat


Posts: 145
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline 		Well, as a very star struck fan of yours in Oklahoma...would you please post the details when you get them? lol

_____________________________

"Treat every day like it is a gift. Unwrap it and then wrap your arms around it; it will surprise and intrigue you." --N. Elchibini


(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Train The Master topics - 11/3/2005 8:43:01 AM   
Webmaster60


Posts: 396
Joined: 9/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Do you know how to actually receive a drink from someone (not just your own S-type)? Can you properly introduce people at formal social functions? Will you embarasses yourself or make a major protocol faux pas at your 'club'?


I'll get shot in the ass for this but I don't really care about protocol. And as Master, I'll not be tied to how I "take" my drink when offered. I don't care abou introductions or being PC at parties or clubs..

However.. I feel that Masters SHOULD receive training or educate themselves on a great number of things. The psyshology of discipline, anger management, self control, educating and mentoring their slave, the ability to "teach" another person (not as easy as it sounds). Physical education (principals of fittness etc), and anything else that one would have to know to take charge of anothers mental, physical, spiritual, educational and emotional development. We tend to take our responsibilities lightly and should not.
Much of this is not particular to D/s but SHOULD be a part of a Mans portfolio of life.

There are times when i will have my slave research an area I wish to know more about and have her prepare a paper for me on it.. (yeah I'll probably catch hell for that one).



_____________________________

Master Michael
~~~~~~~~~~
"To sin in silence when he should
speak makes cowards of men"

(in reply to Elegant)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Train The Master topics - 11/3/2005 12:03:16 PM   
Elegant


Posts: 1024
Joined: 3/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Webmaster60

I'll get shot in the ass for this but I don't really care about protocol. And as Master, I'll not be tied to how I "take" my drink when offered. I don't care abou introductions or being PC at parties or clubs..


First of all let me state that these specific acts are examples. There are numerous examples I could have used, not all relating to parties, clubs etc. Do you disregard standard protocol in all situations, leather and vanilla?

I imagine you don't get many people offering you service of their own free will then..beside from your own slave/submissive. And if another person does serve you it might not be offered again if that is the attitude you convey.

Does your 'I'm a Master, I'll not be tied to how I "take" my drink when offered' attitude apply when offered or given service by another D-type or even someone in a vanilla setting?



quote:

However.. I feel that Masters SHOULD receive training or educate themselves on a great number of things. The psyshology of discipline, anger management, self control, educating and mentoring their slave, the ability to "teach" another person (not as easy as it sounds). Physical education (principals of fittness etc), .......


These are some of the types of subjects I was hoping the get: anger management, Physical education, etc. Of course the ability to teach does mean that you must know the subject being taught.


quote:

Much of this is not particular to D/s but SHOULD be a part of a Mans portfolio of life


And you think that a man's portfolio of life should not include basic manners and etiquette?



quote:

......and anything else that one would have to know to take charge of anothers mental, physical, spiritual, educational and emotional development. We tend to take our responsibilities lightly and should not.


Then do you hand over training of your slave to other people or methods if you are not trained in them youself?


quote:

There are times when i will have my slave research an area I wish to know more about and have her prepare a paper for me on it.. (yeah I'll probably catch hell for that one).


This is a method my Master uses also but it is not a method he relies on solely for some subjects.

Think of that philosophy applied to some play techniques: 'Hey slave, I want to brand you with seven strikes. Please write me a paper on branding tonight and we'll do the branding tomorrow.'

'Book learning' often leaves out important aspects of any type of education.





_____________________________

Elegant
~Slave To Master Archer

http://www.FantasiesInLeather.com

(in reply to Webmaster60)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Train The Master topics - 11/3/2005 8:28:01 PM   
Webmaster60


Posts: 396
Joined: 9/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

First of all let me state that these specific acts are examples. There are numerous examples I could have used, not all relating to parties, clubs etc. Do you disregard standard protocol in all situations, leather and vanilla?

Pretty much yes. I'm a simple man. I'm not into Titles (short of Master), not into the whole bravado thing..
If a slave serves me, I'll thank them, then dismiss or keep them depending on my need.. I'm not particularly concerned about much else.
But look.. Many people are, and thats great for them.. Its just not me.

quote:

I imagine you don't get many people offering you service of their own free will then..beside from your own slave/submissive. And if another person does serve you it might not be offered again if that is the attitude you convey.

::chuckles:: you'd be suprised.. But you seem to have the wrong idea.. that, or you're very defensive..
again.. I'd be appreciative, and complimentary.. I just have no "protocol" on how thats done.. besides.. canned actions remove their genuineness (is that a word?)

quote:

Does your 'I'm a Master, I'll not be tied to how I "take" my drink when offered' attitude apply when offered or given service by another D-type or even someone in a vanilla setting?

Why is it so incomprehensible to you that I just don't care about protocol? Vanilla, Master, slave or chocolate..

quote:

These are some of the types of subjects I was hoping the get: anger management, Physical education, etc. Of course the ability to teach does mean that you must know the subject being taught.

::chuckles:: kind of hard teaching something you know nothing about wouldn't it?

quote:

And you think that a man's portfolio of life should not include basic manners and etiquette?


Don't bait me girl. I've already said.. "thank you and please" and the basic courtesies that ALL people are due SHOULD be of course, part of everyone's profile.
That doesn't have a damned thing to do with "protocol", flowery speech, or canned gestures which I detest.

quote:

Then do you hand over training of your slave to other people or methods if you are not trained in them youself?

what in the hell gave you that idea? If I don't know something I NEED to know, I learn it.

quote:

This is a method my Master uses also but it is not a method he relies on solely for some subjects.

Smart Man

quote:

Think of that philosophy applied to some play techniques: 'Hey slave, I want to brand you with seven strikes. Please write me a paper on branding tonight and we'll do the branding tomorrow.'


Thats probably why I studied and practiced for Months before I performed my first brand. Some things are not appropriate for slaves to be concerned with.

So I'm still confused.. After reading and responding... I still don't understand if you agreed with me or not. :)


< Message edited by Webmaster60 -- 11/3/2005 8:31:15 PM >

_____________________________

Master Michael
~~~~~~~~~~
"To sin in silence when he should
speak makes cowards of men"

(in reply to Elegant)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Train The Master topics - 11/3/2005 11:05:42 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		OK seems that the definition of protocols and etiquette is being lost or left as something understood without a shared definition here.

Protocol is really simply an established way of doing something. Protocols can be individual, club, format (i.e. Gorean /Old Guard / Victorian...) and there does tend to be two sides to most of them the D type side as well as the S type side of them.

As an example most people I know have a specified manner of a slave presenting themselves to their Master, The slave assumes whatever position recites whatever words and the Master then has their part of the protocol as well to recognize that the slave has done their part and then allow them to continue with whatever is required next.

Elegant stands and acknowledges my presence in the room whenever I enter the room. I then also have my part in that I accept the recognition and allow her to carry on or ask her for whatever service I may require at the time.

That is a personal protocol the established manner for both of us to act.

Now Etiquette is a little different and is more a matter of a social group's expected standards of manners. You stand to shake someone’s hand as a basic sign of respect. You chew with your mouth closed the reason is obvious. You wait to begin eating until the Host/Hostess gives the signal as a sign of respect for your host. You plan your meals as a Host to account for the dietary requirements of your expected guests, i.e. you don't serve roast pig if your guest is Jewish or Islamic.

People try to make so much more of etiquette and protocol than they are and thus they become difficult for people to grasp the reasons behind them get lost and they become some kinda stuffy rule someone is forcing on us. Problem is, those who know them and the reason's behind them see rebellion against basic etiquette as a lack of respect, because most of them were are designed as shows of respect for the other people we deal with.


But back to the main subject, service is a two part play with both parties the server and the served having roles to play and unless both parties know their roles the circuit is not completed. My part as a Master is to receive a service, evaluate it's spirit, acknowledge the effort, release them to perform the next duty, and later assuming they are mine tune up the finer points of my expected protocol. If I fail in any of those areas then the circuit is broken and the service cycle isn't complete.

Elegant's has passion for service and has seen many legitimate blunders by receivers where they left the server at a loss for what to do next. Some of the worst can result in spills of food because the receiver doesn't know to watch for plates being served from the left and cleared from the right, the server having to ask if you are through with a plate and become conspicuous because your flatware isn't on the plate with handles at 4 o clock, (the standard signal you are through with that course) or even have a receiver who unknowingly has their flat wear there and gets offended when the server attempts to clear the plate.

Protocol and etiquette are really just established communication methods that permit the people involved to know what is expected of them in that environment.

The jist of the Train the Master topics has gotten sidetracked here a bit, hopefully this brings it back on track.

If I expect my slave to learn service X then not only do I have to know enough to evaluate the service but also I really need to know what the expectations are for the receiver as well, do I need to tip? (When receiving this service from someone else's servant such as boot blacking) I know I need to know the general run of the entire service parts, so that I can play my part and allow them the ability to give that service in an efficient manner and not do things that get in the way of them providing it to me unintentionally.
If you are a dancer you know that a lead is given in a certain way and if you give it differently each time you cannot expect the dance to go smoothly, well service is like a dance with both people having their part in it if either party doesn't do their part you both trip and fall.

In Leather

Archer

(in reply to Webmaster60)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Train The Master topics - 11/4/2005 2:48:58 AM   
sweetpettjenny


Posts: 674
Joined: 11/7/2004
Status: offline 		well that wonderful pool ...isn't near me lol
quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elegant

Masters, Dominants, Owners and other D-types:

There is always discussion and questions on what a slave or other S-type person should learn..what subjects 'training' should cover. D-types (Masters, Dominants, Owners) often speak of skills training to include formal dining service, manicures, pedicures, massage, etiquette, cooking, protocol etc ad nauseum.

What about 'training' for the D-types? I am not refering to play techniques (throwing a whip, shibari etc) but, rather, to general life skills. Do you know how to actually receive a drink from someone (not just your own S-type)? Can you properly introduce people at formal social functions? Will you embarasses yourself or make a major protocol faux pas at your 'club'?

What 'training' would you like to have or do you think is necessary for your life?


Until about a year ago I used to travel the country given classes and demos. It was a wonderful experience and I think everyone envolved benefited a lot. However, in many cases it was preaching to the converted. Almost everywhere I went I heard comments like "I wish **** could have seen this." Sadly the people who most often need "training" fail to seek it out.

I did notice that those who showed up were a wonderful pool for submissives seeking a good partner

quote:

I did notice that those who showed up were a wonderful pool for submissives seeking a good partner

(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Train The Master topics - 11/4/2005 4:16:40 AM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetpettjenny

well that wonderful pool ...isn't near me lol


You're in Conn? I used to do regular lectures at BDS in Boston. Presented occasionally in Manhattan. Did a few in Hartford and a few more up the road in Springfield.

_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to sweetpettjenny)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Train The Master topics - 11/4/2005 4:55:36 AM   
MstrssPassion


Posts: 2444
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren
Sadly the people who most often need "training" fail to seek it out.


So true...

As to the OP's original post...
quote:

"What about 'training' for the D-types? Do you know how to actually receive a drink from someone (not just your own S-type)? Can you properly introduce people at formal social functions? Will you embarrasses yourself or make a major protocol faux pas at your 'club'?


Dominants should be aware of such things & seek out education/training in such manners. Being that I was brought up in a strict southern home much of this type of training was ingrained in me from a very young age.

I also had the pleasure of attending Protocol classes hosted by a long-time lifestyle slave a couple of years ago. The class was divided into two groups, dominants & submissives. We each had our own nights & often we had blended groups. At one point we went over books such as Emily Post & others... both the Top & bottom classes had to reflect studies from their perspectives & carry out tasks such as formal address & introductions... we had a full service formal dinner... high tea... & various other activities.

We also did this with many other books & studies. Occasionally we even did role reversals which always promoted a hearty round of laughs. Picture a highly respected group of femdoms performing some very elaborate Oriental & Gorean serves. The way we figured it was that if we were going to wish a submissive of ours to carry out these type of activities, why not be able to demonstrate so that they learn how to do these serves & such.

These classes also embraced the diversity within this way of life. We took the chance to share information on as many factors & modalities as possible.

I feel that this type of exposure greatly improved me & my presence within this way of life. I miss this type of exchange with other like-minded people. I understand how rare an experience this was & how difficult it may be to find. I do suggest that if a class such as this is your area... give it a chance but don't just go to take away from it... go with the intension of also giving to it.



_____________________________

MstrssPassion


(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Train The Master topics - 11/4/2005 5:31:45 AM   
sweetpettjenny


Posts: 674
Joined: 11/7/2004
Status: offline 		munches, clubs and books...go out and meet people willing to help. Just never interupt a scene or cool down time.

(in reply to Elegant)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Train The Master topics - 11/4/2005 6:18:51 AM   
Evanesce


Posts: 2325
Joined: 9/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Until about a year ago I used to travel the country given classes and demos.


OK, how much begging would it take to get you to come out of "retirement" and come back to Northern Indiana for another talk? I missed your mind-fuck one here something like five years ago, but Master got to attend.

_____________________________

Denise

Give a slave what he truly needs, and he will do what you want.

"There's never a hero in a battle of ego." - Big & Rich


(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Train The Master topics - 11/4/2005 6:23:59 AM   
trish5252


Posts: 1
Joined: 7/29/2004
Status: offline 		hello, my name is trish and i am a submissive...i read the posts on the proper protocol of different environments and if i may, i would like to respond...

as Sir Archer stated...there is a proper and respectful way for anyone to learn and act upon in both the vanilla world and the world of M/s and M/sub...i was brought up with Amy Vanderbilt almost as important as the Bible (actuall, the Bible was much more important but it is my view as an adult looking back..hehehe)...i have thanked my Mother many times for her teaching...if not for her, i would not be walking correctly nor would i have the knowledge to hold my own and help others learn the "proper" way of inter-reacting in different situations...

as Sir Archer stated, it is a way in which all people can show respect and honor others...i grew up in the fifties and learning proper manners was expected as well as used in society...it has distressed me in the manner in which i see so many others not knowing about basic respectful actions...(i.e. such as what should be done when a funeral procession passes)...this was taught to us early...also i had the opportunity to grow up within a military family that travelled extensively...in the community, manners and respect for other cultures is paramount as the sins of the child is given to the parent...

i hope that other Master/Doms realize that manners and proper ways of respect is not forcing another to act a certain way....that they do not have to be formal in their own home...and perhaps i am wrong in this time period...but it used to be that certain protocols were needed to obtain promotions within the business community...

we lost a good bit of this in the sixties...and it saddens me very much as i cannot just dismiss the way in which i was reared and taught...

please forgive me if i have offended anyone as i truly did not mean to...it is just an opinion from an old submissive...

thank Y/you,
trish5252

also, please forgive me if i did not correctly list this response...this is a new forum for me and i still have so much to learn...
quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren


quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetpettjenny

well that wonderful pool ...isn't near me lol


You're in Conn? I used to do regular lectures at BDS in Boston. Presented occasionally in Manhattan. Did a few in Hartford and a few more up the road in Springfield.






(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Train The Master topics - 11/4/2005 7:45:52 AM   
Webmaster60


Posts: 396
Joined: 9/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

OK seems that the definition of protocols and etiquette is being lost or left as something understood without a shared definition here


I appreciate the response..
::sighs:: yes, I agree completely with everything you've stated.. While I absolutely DETEST social situations requiring formal etiquette, I do understand their unfortunate importance. I was in the Army for 20 short years and as I elevated in position, the requirement for such things increased. Yes, the passing of the port, formal toasting, what flatware to use when, how to hold the glass etc..

As for a slave. I would and do train slaves on all aspects of these formalities, both for nilla settings and lifestyle gatherings. I wold not place my slave in a position to discredit her training due to a lack of that training.

As for protocol. I'm not huge on that in informal settings. By not huge, I mean that yes a slave has a formal way of presenting herself, and I will evaluate and react accordingly to that presentation. Even though Gorean, I don't require slaves to announce themselves upon entering, unless the door is shut or its a formal gathering, etc..

As I've said before.. While I do understand the importance of etiquette, I shun those situations where its expected like the plague. I'm just far too simple a man for that.. I like my jeans, I like driving with the window open or the top down.. I do admire those that place much emphasis on those things.. Its just not for me.

Master training, imho need be much different with the above formalities taking a LARGE back seat. Discipline, Physical Ed, Diet, control, instruction.. If I am to control these aspects of a slaves life, I'd damn sure need to be prepared for them.

Anyway, enough rambling..


_____________________________

Master Michael
~~~~~~~~~~
"To sin in silence when he should
speak makes cowards of men"

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Train The Master topics - 11/4/2005 8:30:17 AM   
Soulhuntre


Posts: 223
Joined: 9/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elegant
What 'training' would you like to have or do you think is necessary for your life?


I train in a wide variety of skills. Some of them overlap with those of my servants and some do not. The specifics are too many to list here :)

I do not, however, feel I need to be trained in each of the the things they are. I need to know enough to make proper use of their training and enough to evaluate their performance.

(in reply to Elegant)
Profile   Post #: 20
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