RE: More Chaos and Death in Iraq

RE: More Chaos and Death in Iraq (Full Version)

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pollux -> RE: More Chaos and Death in Iraq (6/24/2008 5:10:38 PM)
quote: If you analyse the American ideolgy of freedom, what it is about is not freedom of the soul but freedom of the powerful to exploit and steal resources from the weak. quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: pollux So your claim that the US only gets involved in conflicts to steal a weaker country's resources is false. Thanks for agreeing with me. Nice try but you can soft shoe shuffle all you like. I never said it was the only reason the US gets involved in conflicts is to steal resources. I said "exploit and steal", Ah, I see.. EXPLOIT and steal. I stand corrected. Thanks for the clarification. quote: one can exploit people for political ends, its called imperialism which is what contemporary USA is about. If you remember where this exchange started I said the US doesn't invade other countries to fight for freedoms of others. You then asked me to explain several particular conflicts which you implied was the US fighting for freedom which I have. No, I asked you to tell me what was exploited and stolen in those conflicts. In fact, I think I said: quote: I guess that explains the US interventions in Liberia, Bosnia/Kosovo, Grenada, Panama, Haiti, Somalia, and for that matter... France in 1914. I guess it also explains the US military's involvement in relief efforts for the tsunami a few years back, and the US military's offers of help to the Burmese cyclone victims. Care to spell out the spoils of victory that have accrued to the US taxpayer from all of that? In fact, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what I said, since I just cut & pasted it. You took off on this bit about fighting for freedoms of others blah blah blah, not me. My beef with you has been on the exploiting and stealing. Which you haven't answered. quote: The only stealing you asked me to explain was the US's stealing of Iraqi oil or at least its effort to. Which you still haven't done.

FirmhandKY -> RE: More Chaos and Death in Iraq (6/24/2008 7:18:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pollux Then it shouldn't be too hard for you to explain how this process of "stealing" is occurring. Please... fill us in. You never really expected an answer, did you? [:)] Firm

meatcleaver -> RE: More Chaos and Death in Iraq (6/25/2008 1:49:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: pollux Then it shouldn't be too hard for you to explain how this process of "stealing" is occurring. Please... fill us in. You never really expected an answer, did you? [:)] Firm As I pointed out in answer to Alumbrado, Iraq was supposed to have been a walk in the park and the Iraqis were to lay down palm fronds for the liberating Americans to walk on. Meanwhile, the Whitehouse and their cronies with contracts in hand, queue up for the grateful Iraqis to sign away their oil. The fact is nothing went to plan. The majority of Iraqis don't want the Americans there and most believe the Americans are there to steal their oil which has been reinforced by the Whitehouse trying to force the Iraqis to push the privatization bill through parliament and American oil companies queuing up for privileged contracts. While the Iraqi government might have the Americans to thank for their power, most Iraqi MPs don't and don't buy America's pretence at not being interested in their oil. As for the wider stealing and exploitation of resources, you will be telling me next that the British Empire was a benigh institution for the promotion of international trade. Most American historians of note recognize the American empire works on similar lines to how the British empire did. Divide and rule, economic pressure, military intervention where necessary. One of the reasons behind the EU was to face down American demands for privileged trading agreements. Like the unequal trading agreements imposed on Japan in the 19th century by the US and then by other western states. To the US, they were trading agreements (what's up ref?) to the Japanese they were licences for theft and humiliation which started the process of Japanese militarisation to prevent themselves being subjugated by the west. If you can't see the imperialism and the parallel between that and what the US (not only the US) is about now and then, you need to read a little history. If you can't see how American policies and their need for oil (you know, toppling governments or supporting hated ones to have access to oil) create terrorism because of American demands for a 'free market' in oil when the US won't allow its markets to be free, is seen as theft and exploitation, you must be blind. The fact that America doesn't have it all its own way, doesn't mean it isn't succeeding in its exploitation. One of the more credible reasons for the Iraqi invasion was because Saddam wanted to start trading Iraqi oil in Euros which would have domaaged the dollar, though probably not as much as Bush has damaged it.

meatcleaver -> RE: More Chaos and Death in Iraq (6/25/2008 2:09:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pollux quote: one can exploit people for political ends, its called imperialism which is what contemporary USA is about. If you remember where this exchange started I said the US doesn't invade other countries to fight for freedoms of others. You then asked me to explain several particular conflicts which you implied was the US fighting for freedom which I have. No, I asked you to tell me what was exploited and stolen in those conflicts. In fact, I think I said: I think you are intelligent enough to know how empires work. You kick person A's ass to show person B if the don't cooperate, sign a deal, generally work against their own interests, they get kicked as well. Its about letting people know who's boss, a sort of international protection racket. You mightn't call it stealing or exploitation but those of the receiving end do. Resentment and terrorism, despite what you might like to think, doesn't materialize out of the ether.

farglebargle -> RE: More Chaos and Death in Iraq (6/25/2008 5:15:27 AM)
If The Iraqi People can't get production running to fill the Iraqi Treasury until they get PERMISSION from the US, then doesn't the US OWN the resources in question? And so-far, apparently, the US wants another Cuba Treaty, and the Iraqi People aren't going along with it. That's ok. They waited out REAL Empires in the past, so waiting out the bullshit-US Empire is a no-brainer. Y'all really should have started developing the solar power satellites in the 80's, then they'd be coming online in Production mode about now, and fuel prices would be stabilized/minimized by market forces.

pollux -> RE: More Chaos and Death in Iraq (6/25/2008 9:04:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: pollux quote: one can exploit people for political ends, its called imperialism which is what contemporary USA is about. If you remember where this exchange started I said the US doesn't invade other countries to fight for freedoms of others. You then asked me to explain several particular conflicts which you implied was the US fighting for freedom which I have. No, I asked you to tell me what was exploited and stolen in those conflicts. In fact, I think I said: I think you are intelligent enough to know how empires work. You kick person A's ass to show person B if the don't cooperate, sign a deal, generally work against their own interests, they get kicked as well. Its about letting people know who's boss, a sort of international protection racket. You mightn't call it stealing or exploitation but those of the receiving end do. Well, I might call it stealing, if it was, you know, actually, stealing. You see -- in my crazy, topsy-turvy right-wing Imperial American world, stealing is not a synonym for "America claims it's fighting for ideology or freedom or human rights but in reality it's fighting for power and influence" or "America claims it wants free markets but in fact it errects all kinds of trade barriers and protectionist measures" or "America is an Evil Empire and if you don't see that you're a big poopy head and you deserve all the terrorism you get" or any of the other red herrings you've posed so far. Stealing has a very precise meaning -- it's where one party takes something from another without paying or otherwise compensating them fairly for it. And you have yet to provide a SINGLE instance where this has been a hallmark of any conflict involving the US in the last 100 years, let alone in Iraq.

meatcleaver -> RE: More Chaos and Death in Iraq (6/26/2008 5:03:04 AM)
You should be a lawyer, they would argue protection money isn't theft too or the fact that someone who put a gun to a taxi driver's head and made them take them on a fifty mile trip for free wasn't stealing either. Try telling Iraqis that America isn't trying to steal its oil, its one of the few things all Iraqis agree on. Cheney's Oil Law For Iraq Is Neocolonial Theft http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7008 http://www.iraqoillaw.com/ http://www.roadstoiraq.com/2008/01/29/american-oil-companies-offered-five-million-dollars-to-each-iraqi-mp-to-pass-the-oil-law/ http://www.avaaz.org/en/iraq_oil_law/ http://www.newint.org/columns/currents/2008/05/01/iraq/ I could list thousands of links from groups across the whole spectrum of political opinion and countries and all agree, Bush is trying and to some extent succeeding in stealing Iraqi oil.

FirmhandKY -> RE: More Chaos and Death in Iraq (6/29/2008 10:37:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver You should be a lawyer, they would argue protection money isn't theft too or the fact that someone who put a gun to a taxi driver's head and made them take them on a fifty mile trip for free wasn't stealing either. Try telling Iraqis that America isn't trying to steal its oil, its one of the few things all Iraqis agree on. Cheney's Oil Law For Iraq Is Neocolonial Theft http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7008 http://www.iraqoillaw.com/ http://www.roadstoiraq.com/2008/01/29/american-oil-companies-offered-five-million-dollars-to-each-iraqi-mp-to-pass-the-oil-law/ http://www.avaaz.org/en/iraq_oil_law/ http://www.newint.org/columns/currents/2008/05/01/iraq/ I could list thousands of links from groups across the whole spectrum of political opinion and countries and all agree, Bush is trying and to some extent succeeding in stealing Iraqi oil. Unfortunately for you, none of the cites you gave really support your position. The first cite is the most interesting, and gives the most details about a lot of issues, but the author suffers from a common ideological aliment: he has an agenda and a conclusion, and sets out to support them. The web-site it is from is an obvious "conspiracy/Amerika is Evil" "lefty-liberal" point of view ("church of the liberal gods" that I'll address in another post). If you don't like those terms, just suffice it to say that it is obviously an ideological agenda driven site, organization, and article. A sampling of some of their "research" articles: Nuclear War against Iran It’s Official: The Crash of the U.S. Economy has begun The March to War: Naval build-up in the Persian Gulf and the Eastern Mediterranean. Plans for Redrawing the Middle East: The Project for a “New Middle East” Reagan Diaries: George W: "Find the Kid a Job"... Is the Bush Administration Planning a Nuclear Holocaust? Will the US launch "Mini-nukes" against Iran in Retaliation for Tehran's "Non-compliance"? New presidential directive gives Bush dictatorial power The Pentagon's "Second 911" The Destruction of the World Trade Center: Why the Official Account Cannot Be True False Flag Prospects, 2008 -- Top Three US Target Cities Rex 84: FEMA's Blueprint for Martial Law in America Bush Executive Order: Criminalizing the Antiwar Movement Beating the Drums of War. US Troop Build-up: Army & Marines authorize "Involuntary Conscription" The Timing of U.S. Troop Build-up: Iran and the Broader Middle East The Truth behind 9/11: Who Is Osama Bin Laden? Secret 2001 Pentagon Plan to Attack Lebanon Bush Directive for a "Catastrophic Emergency" in America: Building a Justification for Waging War on Iran? Israeli crimes against humanity Pentagon: The internet needs to be dealt with as if it were an enemy "weapons system". Top Secret Pentagon Operation "Granite Shadow" revealed. Today in DC: Commandos in the Streets? Spying on Americans: Democrats Ready to Gut the Constitution To Protect Their "Constituents" Bush To Be Dictator In A Catastrophic Emergency As to the specifics of the article itself, I'm not an expert on international contract law (nor do I believe you to be). I am, however, educated somewhat in international relationships and history. What I did see in the article was the lack of a single bit of reflection of a well recognized fact: Nation-stations only hold to treaties and international agreements when it is in their own best interest to do so. Any agreements made now, that later are too onerous on the Iraq government can be (and surely will be) repudiated and re-written. The rest of your cites are basically bullshit, wishful thinking, propaganda and a reflection of your own (and the writers') own ideological prism. I'll address some of your and other posters issues about the development of the oil resources in Iraq, and why what's going on is far different than how you (all) are trying to portray it. If I get time. If I think it might make one whit of difference in your (all's) ideological point of view. Firm

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