RE: McCain wants 45 new nuclear plants by 2030

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DomKen -> RE: McCain wants 45 new nuclear plants by 2030 (6/21/2008 1:52:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomAviator quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Actually my experience is practical as well. I served on the USS Long Beach and trained on the basics of how the plant operated and where stuff was as part of DC party training.. Im calling bullshit on this. Unless you were one of the glow worms, you never set foot in a Naval reactor space. Period, you never got past the yellow door and didnt see shit. As a matter of fact, there was a big stink aboard the Reagan when a bunch of sailors went to mast over a music video that included a shot of the yellow door. http://origin.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,293716,00.html Your training on "where stuff was" consisted of being told that your ass does not enter that area and that anything that happens beyond that yellow hatch is the glow worms business and not yours. By the way, Navy reactors arent even close to civilian reactors - for one thing they use highly enriched (read weapons grade) fuel. I did an entire WESTPAC aboard the "Mobile Chernobyl" and never even saw the door to the reactor area much less entered it or was shown anything of or about the plant. The Navy is practically mental with its security about all things nuclear... You know Ken, its yet another example of how "your Navy" seems entirely different from MY Navy... How do you explain those amazing discrepencies??? So odd.... You were in the United States Navy right??? Strange here you are talking out your ass again. The Long Beach was the first surface nuclear vessel and the second overall. She was quite different from the carriers and later cruisers. There was an area of the ship where the plant crew was the only people allowed on regular duty however the DC parties were trained on the basics in case anything happened. We were quite specifically trained on what to do in cases where the bulkheads around the plant area were breached. We didn't have a 5000 man crew, with a couple of hundred plant crew, so we were ready to deal with damage because the plant crew was simply too small to handle everything themselves. We didn't wander around the plant and we didn't know where everything was but we were trained on the basics and quite extensively on how to handle a fire or other catastrophic event in the plant. Remember this, the world of surface combatants bears no resemblance to the floating malls you served on.

Bethnai -> RE: McCain wants 45 new nuclear plants by 2030 (6/21/2008 8:19:03 PM)
I'm sorry doesn't anyone remember San Thomas, California in 1978? Using a false identity a "Dr. Patterson" went in to a facility that had nuclear reactors as a safety inspector. It was built on a fault line. He had lied and cheated to get to the the 4th ....floor....lab....place in order to attempt to find a way to alter his "accidental" overdose of gamma rays. Dr. Jones stopped it from happening and then the earth quake happened. At some point the cooling system went awry and there was to be a meltdown in 15 minutes. Noted by the flashing "meltdown" button. Allthough the phone lines had fallen, a phone call was made to the mayor to evacuate the city. They sent out a helicopter that circled around people who were already on the highway and not moving yelling at the cars to leave the city. The only way to save the city was to turn the knob to release the pressure so that the water could cool the.....stuff. It would not turn. So, of course this made Dr. Patterson, or Dr. Banner angry. Anger Danger. He turned into the encredible hulk and was able to save the town. Never fear, Dr. Jones now knows that location would be key to the rebuilding of the site. The helicopter was dispatched once again to yell at the cars still stuck on the highway that the coast was clear. It could happen.

Ozzfan1317 -> RE: McCain wants 45 new nuclear plants by 2030 (6/21/2008 8:58:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou quote: Hummm... let's phrase it another way... "McCain Wishes To Build 45 New Potential Terrorist Targets That Could Obliterate Large Sections of the US With Radioactive Steam From Core Meltdowns." ... somehow, it's not as cheery a message, when you put it that way... Well to phrase it that way would be dumb. We already have 104 commercial nuclear power plants operating. We get 20% of our power from nuclear energy, and we are the world's largest commercial supplier of nuclear power. American power plants are specifically designed to contain meltdowns. The worst thing a terrorist could do would be to get into the control room (past all the heavily armed guards.) and shut down the coolant source. I am not an expert, but that's not an easy thing to do from what I read. You can't cause a meltdown with a truck bomb or by crashing an airplane into a plant. If you want to worry about terrorists causing industrial accidents; than the best place to look is a chemical plant, a refinery, or a city's water supply. Nuclear power is safe, clean, and efficient. I'm not saying it isnt worth taking a look at but Uranium isnt exactly in never ending supply either not to mention where does all the Nuclear Waste go do we just bury it in some hanicapped persons backyard?..lol..I am open to any possibility though but I would want to educate myself on a subject before blindly backing it.

Ozzfan1317 -> RE: McCain wants 45 new nuclear plants by 2030 (6/21/2008 9:12:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: Irishknight These things are built to hold in a nuclear reaction and radiation. They aren't made of paper. I don't know. I live within the "evacuation zone" of a nuclear plant. Periodically we get instructions in the mail telling what to do and how to escape in the event of a leak. They even color-code the danger by how close you are to the plant. Doesn't exactly fill me with confidence. I gotta admit that is a good point. My only question is why dont we start doing more rese4arch on how to do fusion power efficeintly? I know it may take years but in the meantime we could also work on maybe doing more things with solar and wind power and Ask some of these major coporations why there prices convienently continue to skyrocket.

rulemylife -> RE: McCain wants 45 new nuclear plants by 2030 (6/21/2008 9:43:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Irishknight Having seen the control room of one of this country's plants, they would probably say, "What the fuck button do I need to hit? or is it a switch? A dial??????" My guess would be that by the time they got into the control room, the vital parts of the process would be locked down tight. The control processes do take time to shut down. The invaders would most likely throw their lives away without causing any kind of a radiological incident. Of course, you can keep asking what if all day and all night. Anyone with UMs knows that. Ever seen the flight deck of a 767? They managed to figure that out!

DomAviator -> RE: McCain wants 45 new nuclear plants by 2030 (6/22/2008 1:28:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Ever seen the flight deck of a 767? They managed to figure that out! For $138.00 anyone in the world can obtain a Pilot's Operating Handbook for that aircraft... $34 will buy you a set of flash cards to help you memorize the systems. $49 will get you the checklists, with all of the procedures, speeds etc... Furthermore, for approx $500 an hour you can go to a sim center and play with a full motion simulator to your hearts content, and roughly $16,000 will buy you a complete type rating course - including groundschool, sim time in both right and left seat, and a checkride and oral exam with an FAA Designated Pilot Examiner. Nuclear plants are a bit different. If you want to be trained as an operator at say the South Texas Project you need to come in with an appropriate credential - such as an engineering degree in an appropriate discipline - nuclear, mechanical, electrical; or experience from the Navy or another civilian plant, then after you get hired they will train you for the control room position you are hired for in that particular plant... Its not like you can get the systems manuals from ASA or Jeppessen-Sanderson, etc.

DarkSteven -> RE: McCain wants 45 new nuclear plants by 2030 (6/22/2008 6:47:38 AM)
Let me chime in here with some random points. 1. When people refer to "energy", they are using a sloppy term. Amory Lovins wrote on the concept that an energy source should be matched with the "quality" of its intended need. Electricity is the highest quality while heat is the lowest. Waste heat generated by other processes would suffice to provide heat (for example, some photovoltaic cells supply both heat and electricity simply by capturing their waste heat) but it in no way could power a car. 2. Nuclear waste should not be an issue as much as it is. Let me call it "spent fuel" instead. Just apply recycling - re-enrich it until it is able to be reused as fuel. I recall being told that Carter was responsible for legislation that outlawed enrichment and reuse of spent fuel - repeal that legislation. 3. Someone wrote that the source of nuclear energy, plutonium, was in short supply. Although there ARE miniscule quantities of Pu naturally oiccurring in Africa, Pu is really a manmade element produced from uranium - the supply of Pu depends on how much we produce. 4. There are at least theoretical concerns about terrorists breaking into a nuke plant and somehow causing an explosion that sent radioactive material everywhere. I'm not sure why nobody ever did an analysis of terrorists breaking into a fossil fuel plant and torching the fuel supply. I don't know which would be worse.

Nosathro -> RE: McCain wants 45 new nuclear plants by 2030 (6/22/2008 9:23:07 AM)
Well I live in the same County as the San Onofre Nuclear Power Plant. It is one of the oldest operating plants. There have been several issues about nuclear power plants many years ago that still go unanswered. One is that such power plants are very very expensive, cost over runs happen. Remember the movie "The Abyss" that was filmed in the water tanks of an abondanded nuclear power plant, the company building the thing ran out of money. That is why the French Government subsides, we would have to be taxed more to get the plants built. Another thing is the plants have never run at full capacity, about 80% meaning for the money invested, you don't get a good return, add that to the tax increase. As to waste, previous US companies simply put the waste in 55 gallon drum barrel, covered them with cement and dumped them in the Ocean, yes the barrels leaked. Remember nuclear waste will be active for 100 of years. There are plans to close down the San Onofre they have a big problem, what to do with the fuel rods, they are so hot nothing can get near them. Then there is the companies themselves, the make a great effort to not be inspected or regulated, nor be subject to public oversite. Obama one time introduce a bill requiring the biggest energy company in his state to report any accident in their nuclear power plants, the company made a large campaign contribution to his bid for the presidency, Obama withdrew the bill.

Irishknight -> RE: McCain wants 45 new nuclear plants by 2030 (6/22/2008 9:17:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Ever seen the flight deck of a 767? They managed to figure that out! They attended flight schools to learn how to fly. That has been verified. Operators train on site after getting hired on at commercial plants. They don't go to civilian schools and walk in knowing what everything is. Weak, so very weak.

TheHeretic -> RE: McCain wants 45 new nuclear plants by 2030 (6/22/2008 10:45:54 PM)
Controlling the nature of the accident would require getting to the control room, and having a very clear understanding of what to do there. Assuming these are terrorists looking to the psychological value of the attack, then any old accident will do. Anyone with a bit of mechanical sense and an animal saw, could create a nuclear accident. They aren't really soft targets, though. The new ones wouldn't be either.

untndedrosegardn -> RE: McCain wants 45 new nuclear plants by 2030 (6/23/2008 12:53:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomAviator quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife Ever seen the flight deck of a 767? They managed to figure that out! For $138.00 anyone in the world can obtain a Pilot's Operating Handbook for that aircraft... $34 will buy you a set of flash cards to help you memorize the systems. $49 will get you the checklists, with all of the procedures, speeds etc... Furthermore, for approx $500 an hour you can go to a sim center and play with a full motion simulator to your hearts content, and roughly $16,000 will buy you a complete type rating course - including groundschool, sim time in both right and left seat, and a checkride and oral exam with an FAA Designated Pilot Examiner. Nuclear plants are a bit different. If you want to be trained as an operator at say the South Texas Project you need to come in with an appropriate credential - such as an engineering degree in an appropriate discipline - nuclear, mechanical, electrical; or experience from the Navy or another civilian plant, then after you get hired they will train you for the control room position you are hired for in that particular plant... Its not like you can get the systems manuals from ASA or Jeppessen-Sanderson, etc. Mainly quoting Rule... If I recall (to tired to look it up atthis time) The hijackers had pilots licenses from a school in florida. So yea, they probably trained on it for a year.

Irishknight -> RE: McCain wants 45 new nuclear plants by 2030 (6/23/2008 4:14:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Controlling the nature of the accident would require getting to the control room, and having a very clear understanding of what to do there. Assuming these are terrorists looking to the psychological value of the attack, then any old accident will do. Anyone with a bit of mechanical sense and an animal saw, could create a nuclear accident. They aren't really soft targets, though. The new ones wouldn't be either. The massive amount of concrete they would be cutting through to get to the good stuff would make them target practice for a lot of folks. No one outside the plant would be in much danger from a saw wielding badman. Its not as easy as they make it look on the movies.

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