Negotiating the Waters with Vanilla Friends (Full Version)

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SltlyBrokenAngel -> Negotiating the Waters with Vanilla Friends (6/20/2008 12:10:19 PM)

Hello all,
I'm sure this has been posted about before but I'd love some feedback.
How do you negotiate between the lifestyle and vanilla friends?
 
I'm fairly new to the lifestyle and I have a close friend (an ex girlfriend actually) who "figured it out"  - I didn't actually tell her what I was involved in because I didn't think it would be something she would understand and I also didn't think it was really something she needed to know.
 
However, now that she does know she gets very upset with me over certain things that I do.  Like ask Sir for permission before going to a party (or something), or tell her that she can't stay over at my place because He has asked that I stop allowing her to do so.

She seems to think that I'm in a "bad situation" and is trying to convince me that giving him control over me is "wrong."  I can understand where she is coming from - she doesn't understand the lifestyle and it wouldn't be her scene.  She is very much a feminist (I consider myself one too).  For me being a feminist means that I can make the choice whether I want to submit to someone or not - to her my submission is anti-feminist and dangerous.  I've tried, to the best of my ability, to express to her that I am happy and that He cares for me and wouldn't do anything to hurt me (in a bad way anyway [;)])

I would like to know if anyone has had to negotiate this before, with a close friend, and how you handled it.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Negotiating the Waters with Vanilla Friends (6/20/2008 12:17:22 PM)

In your particular situation there are a few things I'd advise you:

A) Sit down and have a nice relaxed talk about it all, be open and prepared for questions, answer in a soothing, calm way and make it quite clear that there's nothing to hide, fear, or be concerned over.

B) Reassure her that you know her thoughts come from a place of love and support and wanting you to be happy.

C) Reassure her that you will not try to actively include her in anything that makes her uncomfortable but this is a big part of your life and that will be something she may be exposed to, as any friend would be to their boyfriend or husband.

D) Firmly let her know that this is your choice and ultimately what matters is your happiness and fulfillment.  In the future unless she has specific concerns about your actual safety, she should keep any negative comments to herself.

E)  Have dinner with the her and your master together.  Nothing will show her more how happy you both are, how normal it all is, humanize him in her eyes, and show there's nothing to be concerned about more than just spending time with you both together.

I personally do not negotiate with friends- if someone wants limited understanding of who I am, that's fine, but you won't really be a friend in my book.



Deliena -> RE: Negotiating the Waters with Vanilla Friends (6/20/2008 12:23:26 PM)

I'd echo everything LA has said.

In my experience a lot of feminists find BDSM relationships hard to understand but as with much in life communication is the key.  Before my Master and I were dating I was in a relationship with a guy who didn't mind if I had snogging sessions with female friends of my acquaintance, our relationship was primary, but if I needed a bit of girlie attention that was ok.  My Master does not tolerate that and considers monogamy to be key to our relationship, whilst a few of my friends questioned if I was truly happy to begin with when they saw the two of us together they realised very quickly that I was.  Since they are my friends and they truly care about my happiness they accept that in this relationship some things are different for me.

If she's a good friend she'll see you're happy and be happy for you most likely.

Good luck to you.



littleone35 -> RE: Negotiating the Waters with Vanilla Friends (6/20/2008 12:40:24 PM)

I am lucky my close female friend knows everything and accepts it.  She does not understand it all, but she wants me to be happy and she sees Master makes me happy.  Other friends guess but they don't say anything.

Matt's littleone



fluffyswitch -> RE: Negotiating the Waters with Vanilla Friends (6/20/2008 12:44:59 PM)

you know it's funny i hear people talk all teh time about feminists coming after them-- it's feminists who got me into the lifestyle and the ones that embraced it the most. shrug. i get the impression that i got into feminism on a rather liberal college campus.

i tend to work in stages. i bring up my bisexuality/pansexuality first. if they can handle that i bring up the polyamory, and if they aren't freaked about that i mention the BDSM. i've had it go both ways- i've had people tell me that it intrigues them (a lot of people in the cohorts ahead of mine are like that), reject it/insinuate that i can never meet their children now, and a couple of them i've told flat out after i've come to work bruised and not had them believe me.



SltlyBrokenAngel -> RE: Negotiating the Waters with Vanilla Friends (6/20/2008 12:48:49 PM)

 

Thank you LA - I always enjoy your posts - they're always very insightful. 
I'm hoping that I can provide her with the information she needs to become comfortable with this.  She is a good friend.  Somehow I can't help but feel like I'm hurting her somehow - so I very much would like to sit down with her and talk about this let her get to know Sir and hopefully see that I'm very very happy.



SltlyBrokenAngel -> RE: Negotiating the Waters with Vanilla Friends (6/20/2008 12:53:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fluffyswitch

you know it's funny i hear people talk all teh time about feminists coming after them-- it's feminists who got me into the lifestyle and the ones that embraced it the most. shrug. i get the impression that i got into feminism on a rather liberal college campus.



Gosh, I hope I didn't make it sound like I was slaming her feminism!  That's not what I meant to do anyway.  I'm very much a feminist.  It just seems that she backs up most of her concerns with "my body my choice" which is wonderful and true!  This just happens to be my choice - which I think is hard for her to understand.  In some ways I don't know that it has anything to do with her being a feminist - but more with just her understanding and interpretation of human interactions.  Her ideas on what is "right" or "wrong."



fluffyswitch -> RE: Negotiating the Waters with Vanilla Friends (6/20/2008 1:01:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SltlyBrokenAngel

quote:

ORIGINAL: fluffyswitch

you know it's funny i hear people talk all teh time about feminists coming after them-- it's feminists who got me into the lifestyle and the ones that embraced it the most. shrug. i get the impression that i got into feminism on a rather liberal college campus.



Gosh, I hope I didn't make it sound like I was slaming her feminism!  That's not what I meant to do anyway.  I'm very much a feminist.  It just seems that she backs up most of her concerns with "my body my choice" which is wonderful and true!  This just happens to be my choice - which I think is hard for her to understand.  In some ways I don't know that it has anything to do with her being a feminist - but more with just her understanding and interpretation of human interactions.  Her ideas on what is "right" or "wrong."


oh no i know that you weren't lol. it's just that it comes up a lot-- people say well feminist this and feminist that and the longer that i'm off that campus the more that i realize that i was 'indoctrinted' for lack of a better word into a very pro-kink, pro-sex, pro-queer branch of the movement.



SltlyBrokenAngel -> RE: Negotiating the Waters with Vanilla Friends (6/20/2008 1:08:35 PM)


[/quote]

oh no i know that you weren't lol. it's just that it comes up a lot-- people say well feminist this and feminist that and the longer that i'm off that campus the more that i realize that i was 'indoctrinted' for lack of a better word into a very pro-kink, pro-sex, pro-queer branch of the movement.

[/quote]

Oh good!  I didn't want to come across as judgemental.  
LOL,  sounds like a fun school!  Or a fun group that you were involved in anyway!



Stephann -> RE: Negotiating the Waters with Vanilla Friends (6/20/2008 2:25:09 PM)

Hi there,

You already have some great advice.  I'll offer a couple thoughts that may or may not be helpful.

There's a very strong chance that your friend is projecting herself onto you.  She sees you doing things that she can't imagine being happy with, nor does it sound like she's particularly open to understanding you.  As hinted at before, feminist usually is synonymous with man-hating, penis blending, para-militant.  I'm not saying this is your friend; I'm saying that she seems more interested in you living your life the way she's been taught to live hers (much like a mother trying to 'save' her daughter from the evils of the world) than she is in understanding and accepting you.

Ultimately, this has less to do with her being vanilla, and more to do with her own struggles for how she is supposed to live her life.  People don't know they're part of a cult; they're told by the outside world that they are.  If your friend genuinely cares about you for you, it's worth trying to explain in clear terms.  She doesn't have to agree with how you live, to be your friend so long as you're not living in a manner that directly threatens her.  If she has, as what I can glean from your comments, a hard prejudice against women choosing to be submissive, then you may find her intractable, and your friendship will likely fade.

Not trying to be a harbinger of misery; it's just some people are open-minded, and some people like to wear pride buttons without knowing what it really means.

Stephan



Evility -> RE: Negotiating the Waters with Vanilla Friends (6/20/2008 2:28:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
I personally do not negotiate with friends- if someone wants limited understanding of who I am, that's fine, but you won't really be a friend in my book.


This was the best part of your post. Despite the virtues of your 5 Point Plan (with a nod to Mike Damone) I think the best case scenario many can hope for is tolerance - not understanding... and as you pointed out - friends do not merely tolerate.



came4U -> RE: Negotiating the Waters with Vanilla Friends (6/20/2008 2:47:18 PM)

If that were my friend, I would tell her honestly that your situation is not her business, sexual and non.

What difference is she if she thinks she has the right to drag you off to party and if your Dominant refuses you to go?

Does she pull one arm and him the other?  Will they break you in half?  A situation like this can and will if you do not remind her who's life YOURS is.

You may or may not be in a situation akin to a marriage where asking to go out with friends is commonplace. So why is that her business? 

Feminist shmemisist...it is simple, she is possibly jealous of this new relationship and the time it seems to absorb from HER.

I'd tell her, to accept your ability to see her when you are allowed or she can take her assumations that you are in a dire abusive situation and shove em.

*boy am I impatient today.[:-] 



DesFIP -> RE: Negotiating the Waters with Vanilla Friends (6/20/2008 3:52:52 PM)

So why isn't she allowed to come to your place anymore? I can totally understand her feeling as though you don't care about her from the fact that you're allowing him to isolate you from her. Has he explained his reasoning? Does she convince you to get drunk and pick up strange men? Do you agree that she's unsafe for you to know? And why is she safe to be with in public and not in private.

Because if there is something she's doing that is bad for you then you should be having this discussion with her yourself. Not "My Master says your addiction is unhealthy for me to be around" but instead "We're old friends but I can't be around you when you're using". All of which is a lot different from him not wanting you to have a support system.



SltlyBrokenAngel -> RE: Negotiating the Waters with Vanilla Friends (6/20/2008 3:57:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

So why isn't she allowed to come to your place anymore? I can totally understand her feeling as though you don't care about her from the fact that you're allowing him to isolate you from her. Has he explained his reasoning? Does she convince you to get drunk and pick up strange men? Do you agree that she's unsafe for you to know? And why is she safe to be with in public and not in private.

Because if there is something she's doing that is bad for you then you should be having this discussion with her yourself. Not "My Master says your addiction is unhealthy for me to be around" but instead "We're old friends but I can't be around you when you're using". All of which is a lot different from him not wanting you to have a support system.


Oh know its nothing like that.  She and I can spend time together alone - he asked me not to allow her to spend the night and that, to me anyway, is a valid request considering that she is not just a friend but an ex. 



XaviersXian -> RE: Negotiating the Waters with Vanilla Friends (6/20/2008 4:34:10 PM)

greetings all,

Our closest friends know about our lifestyle, and don't really mind at all.  They see us happy, and that's all that matters to them.  Our dynamic is so subtle (we've been together years) that most people just see a man in control of his life, and his woman happy to be with him.  We know the power to take control of the relationship (and of me) rests with Him, and at the end of the day, that's what we function on, not the overt signs of me in bondage.  At the moment, I don't wear a physical collar of any type around my neck (I have His collar permanently etched into my skin and wrapped around my heart), though at His command, I'll wear a designated necklace (that He picked for me) as an outward sign.  He may decide one day to change that outward sign to something else, and when the day comes, I'll accept it, just as I do every other decision He makes.

well wishes,



BRNaughtyAngel -> RE: Negotiating the Waters with Vanilla Friends (6/20/2008 8:54:20 PM)

I had two open minded close friends who I told about my submissive orientation, my kinkiness and the basics of my relationship.  The kinky part they could handle.  It was the submitting to a man that caused them to question me the most.

I was put on the defensive one too many times and just quietly walked away from those friendships.  I don't have close friends anymore, and that's fine with me.  My next closest friends would be people I know who are in the lifestyle, so it's not really and issue.

Like LA, I will not negotiate with friends, nor will I be put on the defensive about my relationship.  You either accept me, or we no longer have a friendship.



MrRandallspe -> RE: Negotiating the Waters with Vanilla Friends (6/20/2008 10:04:17 PM)

I had much the same with friends of mine when they found out I am a Dom. At times,those that are just finding out have been asking me why.....
I just tell them that it is something I have long enjoyed and as long as I do not "push it' on them nor expect them to join in,,,,it is of no real concern to them. If they want to know more, i explain it to them, 99% of them accept it since I really am set and will not change.



MasterHermes -> RE: Negotiating the Waters with Vanilla Friends (6/21/2008 5:04:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SltlyBrokenAngel

Gosh, I hope I didn't make it sound like I was slaming her feminism!  That's not what I meant to do anyway..."


I am slamming her feminism. Any questions?

Hermes



SilentTigresss -> RE: Negotiating the Waters with Vanilla Friends (6/21/2008 5:56:44 AM)

My friends accept me for who i am, and how i live.  No negotiations.



eepsy -> RE: Negotiating the Waters with Vanilla Friends (6/21/2008 7:12:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SltlyBrokenAngel

Gosh, I hope I didn't make it sound like I was slaming her feminism! 


If feminism is about empowering women, when doesn't it mean that women should be allowed to make choices? If a woman chooses to be submissive, what is wrong with that? And how is that anti-feminism? :) Hmm.. i think i'll call myself a feminist from now on. ;)



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