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The critical observer of pain - 6/22/2008 1:57:31 AM

Prinsexx

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So as not to derail another thread (on sadism) I want to start a new thread on what I refer to as my 'critical observer'.
More generally known as the 'hidden observer' in both cognitive psycholofy and hypnosis, the 'hidden observer' put quite simply is a part of thinking which remains outside of sensation, trauma, pain and emotion and furthermore is able to form objective (quantitative) assessment of experience.
See among many fascinating links on this:
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O87-hiddenobserver.html

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4087/is_200604/ai_n17188494

http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=search.displayRecord&uid=1984-05843-001

http://books.google.com/books?id=8MCmG2TvOz8C&pg=PA54&lpg=PA54&dq
=cognition+hidden+observer&source=web&ots=tKYJ0oaYo7&sig=CUh2V_vRJAg
-wjFNzC4ChU6Fv0s&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result

http://www.his.se/upload/14731/Obsever%20remains%20hidden.pdf

http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=main.doiLanding&uid=1986-00103-001

I suppose ths part of my thinking comes into play when I am asked, in hospiral for example, out of ten what is the level of your pain right now? It seems to be a formalised question in both accident and emergency and post-operative care here in the UK.
Now my hidden observer seems to have different assessment of 'bad' pain.....when the mildest pain gets a 6 or 7 rating in hospital. But in s/m play? or at the height of a scene? Well I have not only tolerated extreme forms of electro play for example but have rated it as mild pain and in other forms of pain exchange have pushed my limits.
I have an internal 'hidden observer' of my assessment of receiving pain because I am a masochist. I have always trusted my sadists to have a critical observation of their delivery of pain.
Thoughts please on this critical observer.

< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 6/22/2008 1:59:40 AM >

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RE: The critical observer of pain - 6/22/2008 2:16:55 AM

Deliena

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I think partially this comes down to processing different types of pain, your example of a hospital visit is likely to be for an accident or for pain related to a medical condition, whereas during scening you are processing a different type of pain and other brain chemistry events are taking place which have a collective effect.

That said - as a psychology student I have to say I find the concept of a subjective observer (hidden within the self) difficult to reconcile from both a behaviourist and from an objectivity point of view. Interesting thought though.

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RE: The critical observer of pain - 6/22/2008 2:33:15 AM

Prinsexx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deliena

I think partially this comes down to processing different types of pain, your example of a hospital visit is likely to be for an accident or for pain related to a medical condition, whereas during scening you are processing a different type of pain and other brain chemistry events are taking place which have a collective effect.

That said - as a psychology student I have to say I find the concept of a subjective observer (hidden within the self) difficult to reconcile from both a behaviourist and from an objectivity point of view. Interesting thought though.

That's the problem I feel with doing psychology from the behaviourist approach. It's a nice hook but one I let go of.
If i were an animal for example then I would probably just 'behave' in a certain way around pain. (Actually my cats and my dog do behave in certain ways. This doesn't include sitting around discussing it or comparing notes.)
But compliancem learning, acceptable codes of conduct, my expectations all form a very big part of my world as a masochist.

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RE: The critical observer of pain - 6/22/2008 2:42:09 AM

azropedntied

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As i had recent medical issues , i got asked that tell me your pain level scale question alot .The Pain was SO not the fun yes yes i want more type it was unbearable and gimmie meds to numb me make me pass out and the level shall be on a high scale til i feel much less of it type . Pain in a medical form to manage where even i cry is vastly different than a bdsm type pain where you have some control .If you go through kidney stones " in my case kidney boulders" with little discomfort kudos to you who ever you are , yet i have had no bdsm pain like that ever nor would i wish to .
In short Delina i think what i am saying is i agree and your right on the mark with what you also said .. Processing vs truamatic pain.

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RE: The critical observer of pain - 6/22/2008 2:48:39 AM

Prinsexx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: azropedntied

As i had recent medical issues , i got asked that tell me your pain level scale question alot .The Pain was SO not the fun yes yes i want more type it was unbearable and gimmie meds to numb me make me pass out and the level shall be on a high scale til i feel much less of it type . Pain in a medical form to manage where even i cry is vastly different than a bdsm type pain where you have some control .If you go through kidney stones " in my case kidney boulders" with little discomfort kudos to you who ever you are , yet i have had no bdsm pain like that ever nor would i wish to .
In short Delina i think what i am saying is i agree and your right on the mark with what you also said .. Processing vs truamatic pain.

Kidmey pain I have to agree is by far the most intolerable pain I have ever felt and that's saying something seeing the size of my kids when they wete born.
I am interested if you have an objective observe part of you that enables you that control in a scene?

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RE: The critical observer of pain - 6/22/2008 3:03:30 AM

azropedntied

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As defined in the hypnotic writing in your link Yes i do and can do it as a Switch on both sides .When topping i can read the persons body , observe , etc so i am doing it almost second hand through them , if that makes sense .
When its being done to me i can very much relate to the definition , though i also seem to take in and allow it to rush through be and sometimes over me when things are being done .Yet i do not know just how much control i have vs the ability to take and processes Allowing it to flow .I liken it to piercing rituals , most see them and say no way could i have a needle run through my arms and cheek to cheek through my mouth etc yet it is that mental prep that gets them through .Military people use the same techniques to survive interrogations and worse .
btw i think i woulda rather had a baby than kidney boulders .
hope i am comming across ok as its late i maybe loopy as i need more sleep lol

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RE: The critical observer of pain - 6/22/2008 3:11:19 AM

Prinsexx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: azropedntied

As defined in the hypnotic writing in your link Yes i do and can do it as a Switch on both sides .When topping i can read the persons body , observe , etc so i am doing it almost second hand through them , if that makes sense .
When its being done to me i can very much relate to the definition , though i also seem to take in and allow it to rush through be and sometimes over me when things are being done .Yet i do not know just how much control i have vs the ability to take and processes Allowing it to flow .I liken it to piercing rituals , most see them and say no way could i have a needle run through my arms and cheek to cheek through my mouth etc yet it is that mental prep that gets them through .Military people use the same techniques to survive interrogations and worse .
btw i think i woulda rather had a baby than kidney boulders .
hope i am comming across ok as its late i maybe loopy as i need more sleep lol

You're doing great.
It's early Sunday mornin here so same loopy issues.
The piercing analogy is interesting. To me piercing is a social occassion (sp?). when I had my tongue pierced all my kids and friends came to see. It was a rare moment of my stoppng talking lol. But when I am watched having something done like this my own hidden observer quite likes an audience,
Same in s/m. The more the merrier. I 'observe' rising to the occassion..............

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RE: The critical observer of pain - 6/22/2008 3:19:37 AM

azropedntied

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Smiles thanks , yet i have hit the wall for the time being and sent you mail on the other side . good posting !

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RE: The critical observer of pain - 6/22/2008 6:11:29 AM

Sabella

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This "hidden observer" seems to deal primarily with disassociation, not specifically with pain. Are you really talking about pain management instead? People who deal with pain daily have developed advanced methods to compartmentalize the pain - keep it separate as much as they can. They are fully aware of what they are doing, it's a deliberate process - no alter ego takes over.

Traumatic pain is harder to deal with because of it's unexpectedness. When will it end? will it get worse? There are no safe words.

From what I gathered from the articles you posted pain was used after the subject was hypnotized and then attempted to determine if the applied pain level was different. Some reported less pain, some more - but they suspect the cues were picked up from the person asking the questions as to how they should respond.

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RE: The critical observer of pain - 6/22/2008 6:59:07 AM

TysGalilah

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Prin

so do you think the " critical observer" is actually our control?

when we ( speaking as a s-type) are not in mindset or ARE in control we discern and are aware of what "hurts" us because we HAVE to be .....but when giving the control to our sadistic/dominant one, we put our critical observer away from our conscious self when we surrender control ...

even lamaze teaches to surrender to the feelings rather than fighting them or thinking about it ( the pain )... so in a way I did give up my control ( even if only to/during the contractions)

when I got my tatt....my d-type wasn't around...the artist I had never met before, but I remember consciously telling myself to surrender my feelings and even thoughts about what was happening. I felt pressure at times but it didn't hurt...the pressure began to feel like pleasure, which confused the heck out of me frankly.

In Tyson's presence, he is in control not me. His sadistic ideas and desires play out on my body, the needles, the heat, the extreme sensations I know are happening but I am not in control of them, nor do I want to be. The first time the tip of a knife indented itself far enough in my breast to bring blood, I watched in complete consciousness....fully aware....but I felt no pain. It is the same with needles and temp/piercings. What I feel before, during and after is utter surrender of every part of my being to that experience he wants and takes control of.

I observe it happening, but the "critical" part is not there...my control is not there.

just a thought...

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RE: The critical observer of pain - 6/22/2008 7:23:36 AM

velvetears

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i think during sm play when a sub goes into deep sub space the hidden observer can't be relied upon. That would be like asking someone in an ER what their level of pain was AFTER they were given a morphine shot. Not reliable information.

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RE: The critical observer of pain - 6/22/2008 8:01:14 AM

Prinsexx

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ORIGINAL: Sabella

~This "hidden observer" seems to deal primarily with disassociation, not specifically with pain. Are you really talking about pain management instead? People who deal with pain daily have developed advanced methods to compartmentalize the pain - keep it separate as much as they can. They are fully aware of what they are doing, it's a deliberate process - no alter ego takes over.~

I am fully aware of the role of the 'hidden obeserver' in hypnotism as I have been a registered hypnotherapist for 13 years. It was a concept which I learned about in initial training and it has fscinated me ever since.

i also have taught and indeed for personal reasons have precticed pain management techniques. I feel that you are absolutely right in as much as the critical observer is another part of the cognitive process, (I don't work with the depth model of id/ego.super and alter egos.....).

Traumatic pain is harder to deal with because of it's unexpectedness. When will it end? will it get worse? There are no safe words.
Yes also agree that there is no consensus in traumatic pain. That's a very good point: obvious when you state it like that but sometimes not so obvious when we talk about pain in a scene being too much.

~From what I gathered from the articles you posted pain was used after the subject was hypnotized and then attempted to determine if the applied pain level was different. Some reported less pain, some more - but they suspect the cues were picked up from the person asking the questions as to how they should respond.~

I didn't mean that that was anything more important in any one article than the other but yes I agree that this is the social element/aspect of pain interaction. afterall the rols of expectation is a crucial social role in hypnosis.

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RE: The critical observer of pain - 6/22/2008 8:09:03 AM

LadyHibiscus

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I have what I call "the watcher", who keeps a critical eye on my depression management. I think it's a dissociative thing, not just a pain observer, but an observer in general.

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RE: The critical observer of pain - 6/22/2008 11:24:05 AM

Prinsexx

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ORIGINAL: TysGalilah

Prin

so do you think the " critical observer" is actually our control?

Fiorst of all I do really prefer the term (for bdsm anyway) of a 'critical obeserver rather than the hidden observer used in hypnosis states. I've been thinking about you question of if it is the 'controller' whilst sitting in the sun this afternoon. Yes I do think it is the controller and has the right cognitively to remain in conrol CRITICALLy. So yes it can surrender that control. Surrendering is learned on the whole I believe.
In my experience (rightly or wrongly) I have only ever lost my critical observer. I still observed but I was critically unable to take control or to surrender. I lost the cirtical aspect during a date rape incident. Where the critical faculty is not there it did i admit take a great deal longer to recall the observation. But yet eventually I remember what was DONE to me and how I was a willing and uncritical observer of what was essentially date rape.
There have been incidents when the observer had been completely knocked out but these are during times of medical anaesthesia.
i have also had what is now known as twilight anaesthesia when again the observer remains but its critical function declines.

when we ( speaking as a s-type) are not in mindset or ARE in control we discern and are aware of what "hurts" us because we HAVE to be .....but when giving the control to our sadistic/dominant one, we put our critical observer away from our conscious self when we surrender control ...

Yes I also agree. Surrendering is a critica aspect and for me I could probably quantify my degree of surrender. Total surrender I have experienced and it is simply erotically amazing to be able to observe myself surrendering. Part of me remains observing though .........

even lamaze teaches to surrender to the feelings rather than fighting them or thinking about it ( the pain )... so in a way I did give up my control ( even if only to/during the contractions)

Childbirth is for me the finest example of HAVING to surrender to physical pain. (Oh to meet a male D type who could understand the nature of childbirth pain.)
Ironically I have often explained the bliss of fisting to a D type as 'childbirth in reverse..........

when I got my tatt....my d-type wasn't around...the artist I had never met before, but I remember consciously telling myself to surrender my feelings and even thoughts about what was happening. I felt pressure at times but it didn't hurt...the pressure began to feel like pleasure, which confused the heck out of me frankly.

Yes it's the same with piercing pain. I know it's tempting to simply say that a masochist has pain and pleasure crossed over. It simply isn't as simple as that. Critically there are degrees, stages, types, of pain and degrees stages and types of surrender. There's probably a Buddhist pali and other ancient texts about it as they seem to have time pretty much sewn up.

In Tyson's presence, he is in control not me. His sadistic ideas and desires play out on my body, the needles, the heat, the extreme sensations I know are happening but I am not in control of them, nor do I want to be. The first time the tip of a knife indented itself far enough in my breast to bring blood, I watched in complete consciousness....fully aware....but I felt no pain. It is the same with needles and temp/piercings. What I feel before, during and after is utter surrender of every part of my being to that experience he wants and takes control of.

I observe it happening, but the "critical" part is not there...my control is not there.

That's the observer Galilah, absolutely. And since you DECIDED to surrender, (rather than in date rape or during anaesthesia of being out of choice....then I am suggesting that critical choice was present at the beginning when you CONSENTED.

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RE: The critical observer of pain - 6/22/2008 11:27:57 AM

Prinsexx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

i think during sm play when a sub goes into deep sub space the hidden observer can't be relied upon. That would be like asking someone in an ER what their level of pain was AFTER they were given a morphine shot. Not reliable information.

That's why hidden is an unuseful label.
Critical observer is better as a bdsm term. for many of the reasons I have thought through in answer to TysGalilah.
Sol I agree in sub space (which again I prefer not to use the word deep) why should the information be relied upon? As long as the D type can be relied upon that's all I need to know.
I know which side of my bread is buttered........

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RE: The critical observer of pain - 6/22/2008 11:31:08 AM

Prinsexx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

I have what I call "the watcher", who keeps a critical eye on my depression management. I think it's a dissociative thing, not just a pain observer, but an observer in general.

It might be argued it is the same observer or it mght be argued that it s not. It would depend I suppose on which approach one was taking.
Look at from a Buddhist point of view it is consciousness itself which even death of the body does not knock out.
It is interesting that most creeds have their quivalent reports from NDE's 9near death experieb=nces0 that the observer remains even when the body passes. I am extremely fascinated by ND experiences and i think they are extremely pertinent.

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