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Advice wanted: would you do good work with someone crazy? - 6/25/2008 10:37:01 PM   
fungasm


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I'm sorry this is so long... I realize that I love chatting on this board... Thank you for your advice.  I have never had this happen to me before and I'm completely at a loss as to what to do...  I just had the more horrible set of conversations, and I'm so bewildered.

Basic background:  I build websites. One of the things I do is Expert Sites, which is where someone hires me to build a website with huge amounts of content.  I do the research and actually create the content under the direction of the client, and when it's done the client has a site with so much information that they look like they know what they are talking about. 

Situation:   A woman contacted me about building her such a website in her field for a new business she is starting.  I found a great  available domain name for her.  She and I brainstormed about the content that her site would have, and we came up with a really an amazing concept for a sister site which no one else is doing, which is more than just data.  It helps people and populations I care about, including victims of domestic violence.  Because her site would be something positive, I offered to build it for her for less than I usually charge.  I even offer that if she does this site, I'll create her logo and build her corporate site for free.  She says she really wants to do this, but she never registers the domain. She also doesn't pay me. For weeks.  She tells me there are issues with paypal (how most people pay me) and she has a problem with her pre-paid credit card, but at the end of the day I'm never paid. After two weeks pass with no communication, I send her a polite email.  I ask her to either pay me or give me permission to offer her construction to someone else.  That's the actual phrase I used: I would like her permission to offer the site to someone else.

I don't hear from her for another week.  She called this evening.  It is the worst conversation I've ever had. In the five minutes we were on the phone, I was called a "fucking bitch" at least 2 dozen times.  She screamed so that I had to hold the earpiece away from me ear.   She claims I have another client because the domain I found is gone.  She is going to find out who I'm working with, she is going to sue me, take everything I have, and my son won't finish college.  (During the course of our initial conversation I mentioned my current empty nest.) I felt violated and not in a good way. It was just a horrible conversation which ends with her hanging up on me.  I don't deal well with screaming in any fashion.  That's what gags are for. It was so bad, I was in tears. 

Then I do some research.  Turns out the domain name I found for her (which really is great) was still available.  She had typed it in wrong.  I sent her an email letting her know she was mistaken, and explaining that she should get it while she could because domain registration sites keep records of those domains people search for. 

Here's where I need advice.  This woman now realizes that she has made a mistake.  She called me back.  She purchased the domain and she really wants me to build what we talked about. During the ten minutes we spoke the second time tonight, she apologized, cajoled, begged, appealled to my better nature, and promised that she would be a saint to work with.  She says she understands that if she doesn't pay me, I can't work with her.  She also says that she has passion, which is definitely true, and that I should only want to work with people who are as passionate as I am... Flattering, but I don't know.  What I do know is that the project is one I would love to do.  It's something really positive and good, and even if she is nuts, she's not stupid.  I told her that I would give her an answer tomorrow.

Would you take the job?  My client would be completely insane, but the project would be fabulous.

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RE: Advice wanted: would you do good work with someone ... - 6/25/2008 10:42:36 PM   
GreedyTop


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From: Savannah, GA
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insane? or possbly having a totally crap day and you just got the fallout??  

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RE: Advice wanted: would you do good work with someone ... - 6/25/2008 10:57:05 PM   
MzMia


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I have worked with the craziest of the crazies.
From what you told us here, I doubt you will be able to do "good work" working
with that crazy heffa. 

The bottom line for you here is your business, your pride, and money.
 
I take it you work for yourself, do you NEED this woman's business?
I mean is it going to make a difference in your life?

If yes, I would deal with her, and laugh at her crazy ass all the way to the bank.

If No, I woud get what she owes me and get as far away as possible from her
crazy behind. 

< Message edited by MzMia -- 6/25/2008 11:46:18 PM >


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RE: Advice wanted: would you do good work with someone ... - 6/25/2008 11:14:56 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

insane? or possbly having a totally crap day and you just got the fallout??  

I vote insane. Or serious PMS.

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RE: Advice wanted: would you do good work with someone ... - 6/25/2008 11:30:37 PM   
Lynnxz


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You are going to run into people like this wherever you work, I'd suggest taking the job, but making her pay up front for everything. *shrug*

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RE: Advice wanted: would you do good work with someone ... - 6/26/2008 1:16:44 AM   
Sundowner


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I'm guessing, so ignore me if I'm wrong. You're creative, so you maybe don't formalise your work. But it helps; try writing up a fairly simple page or two headed "Terms of Engagement" summarising how you handle your work.

Nothing over technical or formal, just some basics of the stuff you do and the way you do it.

And include something about how payment works - a good basis if you're working to a fixed fee can be to note that you normally do 20-50-30; that is 20% paid to you on appointment, 50% paid when you deliver and 30% paid 30 days later to let the client have time to test the site fully. It shows that you put 80% of your fee at risk, only paid if you deliver, but equally you expect at least something up front.

And say that the fixed fee covers whatever is specified in "Client Requirements" which is a simple written summary of what you agree to do (with a note saying any variations will be by agreement between you and the client). This helps avoid spec creep, where clients keeps asking for a little more here, a little more there etc.

If you have this neatly set out in writing it can have tremendous power. It's not offensive, it just sets out what you do and how. But being written it somehow has more "authority". And of course you carry on as normal chatting to your clients as friends as well!

If you do loads of work then as you hit different problems and resolve them, amend the Terms of Engagement or the Client Requirements forms accordingly. In time you should have something that works really well and helps both you and your client.

Apologies if for you that's sucking eggs!

Take the client or not? Depends on your workload; if you're busy on other stuff then it's easier to be firm ("do it my way and pay something up front or fuck off"). If you're desperate for work, be more persuasive! But if you're in business you want clients - any clients - on your terms and the purpose of the work is immaterial.

If this job is not business, it's a social gesture, get on with it, bring some joy into the world, and forget the money.

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RE: Advice wanted: would you do good work with someone ... - 6/26/2008 2:23:47 AM   
DomAviator


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Fungasm, I would run like hell! I actually have a side business doing the very same thing - as I bring in outside projects to keep the people who develop my training materials, powerpoints, flash, and web / CBT training programs busy when they arent working on my stuff. (This way I get to keep the same team, and dont have to deal with an endless stream of freelancers. The side biz isnt a big thing, as overall it contributes less than 30K annually to my company bottom line , but it makes my creatives a revenue source rather than an expense)

I have descovered that those with "Paypal Issues" and "PrePaid Credit Cards" lack the financial resources to be a client worth having. They are invariably more trouble than they are worth... I regularly cut clients, or prospective clients loose - because they "rubbed my fur the wrong way" , are habitually late, etc. You are asking for trouble by continuing to work with her. There are a lot of "wanna bes" who want an online business but lack the money and try to stall until they get it together. My philosophy is "call me when you have the cash".

As I told the deadbeat bitch who's check bounced for her e-commerce site, you cant sue me because we have no contract! A contract requirers "offer, acceptence, consideration, and a meeting of the minds" No pay = no consideration. No consideration = no contract! In fact what I did was take the site I did for her, and the domain name I registered on her behalf. Then I had the guys clone the site with a dozen different names and I sold twelve of them... all with her desired look, and the same products from the same suppliers which they did the data entry on... She couldnt do shit about it because she had no contract by failing to pay! SO not only is this client a bitch, but she is an idiot too.

The web development market is big enough that you dont need to deal with whack jobs. Let them hire some starving college kid to bang out their little pipedream sit in FrontPage.  I operate on the philosophy that if a client isnt racking in the billable hours for me I dont need them. If they arent paying promptly I dont need them. If I have to chase after them for info, appointments etc I dont need them. Its all about money, and if they arent making me money then the should go inflict themselves on someone else.

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RE: Advice wanted: would you do good work with someone ... - 6/26/2008 3:35:22 AM   
JulieorSarah


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i agree with Sundowner and Lynx. 

I also understand that doing this will bring you a great deal of personal satisfaction and she sees this.

Stop now and discuss with her and draft up a Terms of Engagement (or Memorandum of Understanding) that states clearly
  • what is requried by both of you
  • the times frames they need to be completed by - factor in things done by third parties that you can't control for example a stage is dependent on council approvla so progress will be suspended until that is granted.
  • a get out clause what happens if communication completely breaks down and the project is not completed who gets what.
  • payment schedule ... progress halts each time she is late ... penalties if she doesn't pay on time .. they don't have to be financial ... something that you want that she can provide .. promotional space on the site - 'concept developed by ...'  or something else.
  • what does she get if you can't keep to the schedule ... the concept just doesn't work - other problems that are within your control.
  • there should be an end date - this agreement will end when ... x y and z occurs or if there is an unresolvable dispute and the get out clause will then apply.

the document should be equitable and fair .. it should be in clear language, short, about a page long, in bullet form and once you both agree to the content both of you should have someone else look at it ... (independent advice) who each of you uses doesn't really matter then you both sign two copies one for each of you. 

You say she is not stupid, but crazy ... if you and she can work through creating this document successfully what is expected of and by you both will be understood ... the hassles should diminish.

personally i think she is a bully and i wouldn't touch it ...

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RE: Advice wanted: would you do good work with someone ... - 6/26/2008 5:11:05 AM   
WolfsbaneX


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Working with crazy isn't neccessarly a bad thing. I'm crazy and fucked up as all hell and people manage to deal with me every day. There is just different types of crazy. You just happened to run into abusive crazy mixed with a hint of boil your rabbit in a pot crazy thats all. With me ya got chasing wild animals and talking to the tv even though its turned off crazy. Least when you get me on the right substances. Otherwise its the Great Cornholio, mixed with a bit of  the Hulk, and Deadpool. Anyway back on the subject, ya see the difference between the types of crazy a lil better?

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RE: Advice wanted: would you do good work with someone ... - 6/26/2008 5:42:18 AM   
xxblushesxx


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Drinking, drugs, or a nut job. Either way, I'm not getting in the middle of her drama. And there would be drama. You can take THAT to the bank in lieu of the money she will never be able to pay you, but always have a great reason why.
I'm just sayin'...

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RE: Advice wanted: would you do good work with someone ... - 6/26/2008 6:14:00 AM   
sophia37


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Money up front sister. Money up front. You seem to have forgotten the beginning of the story by the end of the story. This woman is anything but business like. So whats your fee? Send her the bill in advance. Im certainly not buying/paying for stuff from lowes after, its built into a house. I pony up the cash in advance. 

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RE: Advice wanted: would you do good work with someone ... - 6/26/2008 6:18:22 AM   
thishereboi


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It sounds like you are really into the project, so I would probibly go for it.

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RE: Advice wanted: would you do good work with someone ... - 6/26/2008 7:04:33 AM   
Bethnai


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I would agree with what has already been said, get the money up front.

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RE: Advice wanted: would you do good work with someone ... - 6/26/2008 7:20:16 AM   
winterlight


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for myself i wouldn't want months of this. What if things need changed or she doesn't like something. I have enough stress in life that i wouldn't want to deal with a whack job like her. But, that is me.

Get the money up front like the others have said if you decided to go with her...

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RE: Advice wanted: would you do good work with someone ... - 6/26/2008 7:21:44 AM   
winterlight


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She has issues with Paypal and credit card... what does that tell you. if you are never paid at the end of the day how do you know for sure you WILL be paid for anything you do.

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RE: Advice wanted: would you do good work with someone ... - 6/26/2008 7:28:03 AM   
DomAviator


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I couldnt disagree more...This bitch has already proven herself to be difficult and a slow pay, before the project even started. Business people dont need "clients" they need GOOD clients. I am not UNICEF, I am not the United Way, if a client isnt making me money they can wander out into the traffic and chase cars. The wrong kind of clients can drag you down.

I mentioned this cleint of mine, Kyle, in another thread. He has a single user license for a  $200 computer based traing program we produce. Every time he calls, the whole gist of the conversation is what can he try to beg, argue, weasel and cajole for free... OK for $200 I dont need his ass. That wont take me on a decent date much less support my business- so Im not going to kiss his ass or keep him happy. Earlier this week I came right out and told him to get lost and it was a smart move because I am going to save more on Rolaids than his account is worth. Specifially I told him:

>>paste
If you do not want to do it yourself, or to pay us to do it, then you can hire someone else to do it - just like I have to do when in the course of my business or personal life  I encounter tasks that I have neither the time, desire, nor inclanation to do myself  - such as listening to your bullshit, hence the reason you have been talking to Lisa for the past two months.  Im case you are too dense to pick it up Kyle, I loathe, detest, and despise you, I groan when I see you on the caller ID, and I delete your voice mails without even listening to them. I wont even get into missing countless appointments - when I have taken time out of my life to be home in front of a computer waiting for a call that didnt come when I could have been in a bar in Galveston with a Margarita in my hand and a Texas cutie on my lap...I havent seen a dime from you beyond the initial purchase price That doesnt exactly elevate you to "major account" status. Like any other business owner who wants to enjoy a comfortable standard of living - I am an unabashed unashamed unrepentant whore. I love, and will kiss the asses of,  those who come to me with a fistful of Benjamins Want me to love you long time? Numbah one boom boom? Then contribute to maintaining my high stardard of living, keeping me in the manner to which I am accustomed, and financing my bad habits... Otherwise, be gone and never darken my door again... I cast thee out unclean spirit!"
>end paste 

Whoever came up with that "the customer is always right shit, was a fucking customer not a business person! Even if this woman has some "good cause" , its doomed to fail anyway because a community service organaniztion cant have a deadbeat hothead at the helm and succeed. Taking on the wrong clients will drag you down.... This woman's money isnt green enough for me... Fuck her, she will cost you more on excedrin and valium and tums than she will produce in billable revenues. Customers come with whats called an "opportunity cost" - when Im wasting time with this pain in the ass Im not courting somebody with six figures to contribute to the gross revenue stream.

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RE: Advice wanted: would you do good work with someone ... - 6/26/2008 7:32:17 AM   
cjan


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I think Sundowner covered all the bases, including your altruistic concerns. Excellent, detailed advice and no consultants fee. That's as good as it gets.

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" When you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks in to you"- Frank Nitti



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RE: Advice wanted: would you do good work with someone ... - 6/26/2008 7:41:30 AM   
GreedyTop


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Cj!!!!!!  where've ya been?

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polysnortatious
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CHARTER MEMBER: Lance's Fag Hags!
Waiting for my madman in a Blue Box.

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RE: Advice wanted: would you do good work with someone ... - 6/26/2008 7:50:38 AM   
DomMeinCT


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Would you take the job?  My client would be completely insane, but the project would be fabulous.

Depends upon how willing I was to being called "fucking bitch" every time something went wrong (and odds are with a project this large, other things may go wrong).  Me?  I'd throw my talents and altruism to another project with worthier, more stable management.

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The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances:
if there is any reaction, both are transformed.

~ Carl Jung

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RE: Advice wanted: would you do good work with someone ... - 6/26/2008 7:53:23 AM   
pahunkboy


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From: Central Pennsylvania
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yes. take her money.

websites are a dime a dozen.    5 years ago- "my website"  meant "bling bling"      today it means  "nod head with 1/2 smile, as you must appear to be polite"


take her money.

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