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Religion & BDSM - 6/26/2008 8:02:22 AM   
littleone35


Posts: 2828
Joined: 2/17/2005
Status: offline 		I was thinking about this the other day.  Master is Cathloic and i am Protestant.  Now that does not affect our relationship at all because we do nor agree on everything but is close enough. We hold the same core beliefs.

My question is this for those who believe in orginiazed religon.  Did you upbringing make you believe BDSM was wrong and somhow dirty, or did it embrace all kinds of lifestyles?

I never believed it was wrong, Master brings so much joy imto my life.  I believe if we were meant to be happy and this brings us happiness how can it be wrong?

Matt's littleone
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Religion & BDSM - 6/26/2008 8:42:09 AM   
MasterHermes


Posts: 136
Joined: 5/23/2008
Status: offline 		Please read 4 canonic gospels. You will see there is no reference to anything that can make you think BDSM is wrong or dirty. Not the action but the reason behind it is important. It says "Love each other" ..

John 13:34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

Keep bringing love and joy into each others lives
Hermes

(in reply to littleone35)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Religion & BDSM - 6/26/2008 8:55:52 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		No. The Bible has very few comments about sexuality. The section on Onan refers not to masturbation per se but about him refusing to give his brother's widow a son to carry on the brother's name and inherit the brother's property. What he did wrong was to force the widow out and steal the land.

As a Reconstructionist Jew, we are enjoined to act in such a manner that strengthens the community and brings us closer to God. What I do in private with a consenting partner will not ever damage the community nor make me move further away from God. How could I move away by accepting the gift of sexuality which adds so much to a loving relationship?

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to MasterHermes)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Religion & BDSM - 6/26/2008 9:51:16 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: littleone35

We hold the same core beliefs.


If you can consider those two to have the same core beliefs, you can have a career in law or politics.

quote:

My question is this for those who believe in orginiazed religon.


Could you define this further? Do you mean "believe in the teachings of some organized religion of which you are not a member of the clergy?" (No.) Or perhaps "believe in a mainstream faith, in one of its many incarnations?" (Basically.) Or could it be a matter of whether I believe organized religious groups actually exist? (Define "organized" ;)

It gets more confusing when upbringing enters into it, as I was raised by an agnostic and an atheist, and initially chose to follow an organized religion until I found the flaws to be unacceptable and became a private practicioner of essentially the same faith, until I then had an epiphany/revelation and reinterpreted the faith as a unified whole and started to found something on it.

quote:

Did you upbringing make you believe BDSM was wrong and somhow dirty, or did it embrace all kinds of lifestyles?


My parents never talked about BDSM, nor did I until I discovered it.

quote:

I never believed it was wrong, Master brings so much joy imto my life.


Glad to hear it.

quote:

I believe if we were meant to be happy and this brings us happiness how can it be wrong?


Were you meant to be happy? And does the evaluaton of whether it is wrong depend solely on whether it makes you happy? Was Ted Bundy not meant to be happy, then, perhaps? Or maybe he was right to be happy until the cops put an end to his being happy? Or perhaps it comes back to a moral judgment, which in turn is one of the key elements of organized religions, providing a moral framework for those who believe?

If the latter is the case, the question is: how does the Pope feel about your relationship?

Seems like it might be time to align convictions and reality, here.

Getting out of the church, or into it, beats having one leg on each side of the door and pretending one has all the bases covered. The one objectively good, unattackable bit about the Catholic church is that they've got the balls to stand for something, and that could arguably be said to be their most core belief. Integrity is admirable, even in one that lacks other admirable traits (not saying that's the case for them). And that is really what he's selling out here: integrity, commitment to his word, and the core beliefs he's chosen to claim to abide by.

It may also be a good idea to decide now whether you're ever going to be married.

That generally can't happen while he is playing at being a practicing Catholic.

Common beliefs are good... being deceitful about it, not so much.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to littleone35)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Religion & BDSM - 6/26/2008 9:54:46 AM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

I believe if we were meant to be happy and this brings us happiness how can it be wrong?


I think if what you do impacts others in a negative way then it probably is wrong.  Even though it makes you happy.


_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to littleone35)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Religion & BDSM - 6/26/2008 9:57:30 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

The Bible has very few comments about sexuality.


Which Bible, and what parts of it, and which commentaries?

As far as I can tell, the number in the Torah alone exceed my definition of "very few."

And, no, they aren't necessarily negative, and, yes, they can be interpreted a zillion ways if we wish, although the pitfall of rationalization tends to be a minefield to avoid when doing so, especially when lacking the original cultural context, which seems to be best kept among Yemenites and some conservative Moslem communities. I've rarely found piecewise reinterpretations to yield a result that displayed any resultant coherence (with the possible exception of picking a single source and dropping the rest of the Torah).

Most of those problems were seeded long ago with the transition from polytheism, though.

Hard to make a good dish from poor ingredients, yes?

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Religion & BDSM - 6/26/2008 10:00:52 AM   
littleone35


Posts: 2828
Joined: 2/17/2005
Status: offline 		Aswad  thank you for you answer but it was a simple question.  And i did not mean you parents taalking about BDSM i mean the church but just not in so many words.  Of course you are entitled o you opnions i will support yhat right till my last breath.  I might not agree with all you are saying but i will respect you right to say them.

To all other who answed  thank you for responding with a simple answer to a simple question.

Matt's littleone

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Religion & BDSM - 6/26/2008 10:10:04 AM   
Shawn1066


Posts: 987
Joined: 10/7/2007
Status: offline 		Lessee, I am a Protestant--not a churchgoing one because I believe my relationship with God is an extremely personal one and I don't like how Churches seem to try to force their interpretation of the Bible onto you.  My Owner is a Protestant as well--formerly of the Jewish faith--and she does go to church when she can.  Our beliefs are relatively close.  Angel, her other pet, is a very devout Protestant who attends church regularly and was actually given his name as a result of his missionary work, which I feel is a very noble thing.

Is my faith an issue in how my Owner and I interact?  No, it's not.  God and I have a very good understanding and my relationship with my Owner is a blessing.  I've never felt there was anything wrong with BDSM on a religious level.

Is Angel's faith an issue on how him and my Owner interact?  Yes, it's an issue on how they interact as I undestand it.

DV's Fox 

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Religion & BDSM - 6/26/2008 11:00:17 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		The simple answer, littleone, is this: if you want to do it, and don't see a problem with it, why ask us?

Yes, some people have been damaged by their parents. No, I wasn't, as far as I am able to tell. Anyone here that was, will have gotten over it well enough to come out among those of like mind. Some will still be bitter about it. Others have moved on. Some never had a problem in the first place. It's like anything else in life, really.

Just do it and be happy about what you do.

I simply got the mistaken impression the question had to do with morals, values or character.

Health,
al-Aswad.

Edit: I'm left a little confused as to the point of the question, but that's nothing new.


< Message edited by Aswad -- 6/26/2008 11:02:50 AM >

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to littleone35)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Religion & BDSM - 6/26/2008 12:59:33 PM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline 		I think my religion (Anglican) probably would have effected my attitude to BDSM if my parents hadn't done such  good job editing and censoring what I was being taught at school and church. I grew up being taught to love and tolerate the world around me, and help to change what I couldn't tolerate without being a force of hurt.

When I cam home having been told sex outside of marriage was wrong, and then saw my sister aged 16 being driven to stay with her boyfriend ... alone ... by my parents ... who provided alcohol ...  I was reasonably a bit confused. Until Mr & Mrs Softness explained that God couldn't give a crap what we do, as long as we dont hurt other people with our choices. I was taught to make myself happy, but not at the cost of other people ... and on my way to happiness to help get as many other people there as I could.



_____________________________

proudly wearing the blue collar of consideration to DK Leather, Leatherdykeuk, and LeatherEagle of the UK KRueL Leather Family

veritas, respectus honorque in corio





(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Religion & BDSM - 6/26/2008 1:28:56 PM   
pixidustpet


Posts: 857
Joined: 6/4/2008
Status: offline 		i'm a odian.  TheEngineer is a lapsed catholic, as is Daddy.  we have not ever had any problem with religion/spirituality.

religion isnt such a thing to me, spirtuality is.  and in my view, anything that lets you learn more about who you are is a good thing, and leads you closer to deity.

kitten  "no, Sir, hearing OH GOD in the dark does NOT make you a deity...!"

(in reply to softness)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Religion & BDSM - 6/26/2008 2:31:15 PM   
pagankinktress


Posts: 80
Joined: 8/12/2007
Status: offline 		Actually, as a Pagan, I'm not sure if that technically qualifies as an "organized" religion....but I will offer my thoughts on this topic.  I was raised in the Catholic church and granted, the whole notion of "sex between married couples only" didn't impact my sexual decisions, thankfully! ;)  If I get what the OP is trying to discuss, she is asking, is there any part of my religious belief system (past or present) that would seem to contradict my desire and/or participation in BDSM?  The short answer is, no.  If anything, some tenets of Christianity, particularly Catholicism, seem to advocate for the submission of the female to the male.  Have you ever been to a Evangelical Christian wedding?  Check out the sample vows:

Female

I, _____, take you, ______, to be my wedded husband. With deepest joy I come into my new life with you. As you have pledged to me your life and love, so I too happily give you my life, and in confidence submit myself to your headship as to the Lord. As is the church in her relationship to Christ, so I will be to you. _____, I will live first unto our God and then unto you, loving you, obeying you, caring for you and ever seeking to please you.

The full female vow sample along with the male sample can be found here: http://www.beliefnet.com/uExp/Wedding_Ceremony_Display.asp?PraiseId=3&PraiseType=1&mode=dsp

Sexuality and religion are typically juxtaposed against one another in a tenuous way, regardless of what particular faith one practices.  And maybe I'm wrong in my perceptions, but in a lot of ways I think the actual D/s dynamic is possibly  reinforced in a lot of religions, if you really break it down into what is valued.  Submission, suffering, humiliation, sacrifice, throwing stones at people...ooops, never mind the last one.  But hopefully I have a point in here somewhere.






_____________________________

~ Ivy

My Blog: http://www.bohemianrhapsodize.com/
http://twitter.com/pagankinktress

(in reply to pixidustpet)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Religion & BDSM - 6/26/2008 3:02:00 PM   
AmbrosialWench


Posts: 50
Joined: 10/2/2007
Status: offline 		Catholic is a very organized religion whose leader is obviously the Pope. I don't think the Pope theoretically would have a problem with the BDSM aspect. He however would have a problem with sex outside of marriage. The Bible is not the basis of the Catholic Church, Tradition is the core of the teachings. As the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church put together the Books that make up the Holy Bible. The Books were carefully choosen to help laymen understand the teachings of the Church. Tradition would indicate that sex outside of marriage is against the laws of God. One is probably breaking the law of not coveting. However once your married all is fair. Well unless your Catholic. If you are Catholic, you should also be trying to have children, else it is a sin also.

I do not believe in organized religion, but I do believe in the one Church. And because of my belief, I think if you do your best to try to to sin God will smile upon you. Thus if you do not truely think you are doing anything sinful or against God, He will look on you differently then one who does the same thing but feels it is sinful. At least this is the teaching of the Catholic and Orthodox Church.

(in reply to pagankinktress)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Religion & BDSM - 6/26/2008 4:59:07 PM   
DarkVictory


Posts: 247
Joined: 8/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: softness

I think my religion (Anglican) probably would have effected my attitude to BDSM if my parents hadn't done such  good job editing and censoring what I was being taught at school and church. I grew up being taught to love and tolerate the world around me, and help to change what I couldn't tolerate without being a force of hurt.

When I cam home having been told sex outside of marriage was wrong, and then saw my sister aged 16 being driven to stay with her boyfriend ... alone ... by my parents ... who provided alcohol ...  I was reasonably a bit confused. Until Mr & Mrs Softness explained that God couldn't give a crap what we do, as long as we dont hurt other people with our choices. I was taught to make myself happy, but not at the cost of other people ... and on my way to happiness to help get as many other people there as I could.




I'm an unreconstructed athiest.  I am exactly like every fundamentalist christian or muslim alive with one tiny difference.  They utterly disbelieve in 999,999 (approximately) stupid and superstitious notions of 'god' and so do I.  I simply refuse to believe in one more stupid and superstitious notion of 'god' than they do.  Whether or not my submissive(s) or slave(s) believe in an invisible jewish zombie living in the sky who wants you to engage in magic cannibalism or an angry volcano fairy that promises you 72 virgins if you asplode just right doesn't matter one whit to me.... *unless* it interferes in any way with laundry, baking and sodomy.

At that point, I will expect them to behave in a rational and non-stupid and superstitious manner.  If they can't do that, we don't fit.

(in reply to softness)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Religion & BDSM - 6/26/2008 6:37:35 PM   
lilacs


Posts: 46
Joined: 2/17/2005
Status: offline 		I am a non-church going although otherwise rather spiritual and devout Lutheran, Sir is best described as a noncommital agnostic.  Faith and religion do not enter into our relationship more than a philosphical discussion in the same way we might discuss politics and our different views on that. :)  We on the whole agree to disagree and he knows I'm not interested in trying to convert him and I know he's not interested in hearing the Gospel beyond what it means to me *personally*.  (Because - he wants to know and understand me, not because he wants to know and understand *it* if that makes any sense.  He's great like that.)

I can't speak for many religious beliefs out there because I don't know enough about them and teachings around sexuality including sex outside of marriage or anything else that is labeled a 'perversion'.  I know that there are a lot of Christian teachings that discuss how The Bible is the word of God.  However, there is a point where an individual must decide for him or herself if The Bible is a work inspired by the divine or the infalible word of the divine - written without error.  I tend to believe the former - so I take it as a guide to live a life that will bring me close to the divine as I see it, knowing that it was transcribed by human beings with all our imperfections.

(in reply to DarkVictory)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Religion & BDSM - 6/26/2008 7:44:05 PM   
vampchick88


Posts: 346
Joined: 4/10/2007
Status: offline 		 I personally don't see anything wrong with my chosen life. I have free agency which gives me the freedom to do whatever I so choose to do. As for having a slave, the Bible states that having a slave as long as they do so of their own free will is fine, so I'm exercising that right as well. pet is more than willing to look up at me with those beautiful brown eyes, it makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. As long as what I do does not hurt anyone so I'm perfectly happy with my life. ~Lorelei

_____________________________

Proud owner of rubberpet, the best investment of my time, trust, and heart that any Domme could ever dream of.

(in reply to lilacs)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Religion & BDSM - 6/26/2008 9:51:36 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vampchick88

As for having a slave, the Bible states that having a slave as long as they do so of their own free will is fine, so I'm exercising that right as well.


Actually, no, the Old Testament states that you can have one as long as it's not from your society, meaning that white slave trade is okay, so long as you don't get yours from your own country, and so long as they weren't stolen from other slave traders. Apart from that, there are some rules regarding how you should treat them.

The New Testament proceeds to say they shouldn't try to get free, and that they should obey you as if they were obeying God, which (if you buy into the validity of the Bible as a single work, contrary to all evidence) they also are doing, on the theory that that is the word of God and all that. Additionally, Matthew uncontroversially clarifies that the Old Testament remains valid until all prophecies have been fulfilled and all things are dust.

In short, the Bible unequivocally condones non-consensual slavery and sexual use of slaves.

It does not, however, condone acquiring them from among your own people.

Pretty much the standard all societies have adhered to¹.

Health,
al-Aswad.

¹ Except for the minimum standard of how they are to be treated, of course. No outright killing, etc.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to vampchick88)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Religion & BDSM - 6/26/2008 10:02:18 PM   
softness


Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

In short, the Bible unequivocally condones non-consensual slavery and sexual use of slaves.

It does not, however, condone acquiring them from among your own people.



See DV .. you shouldn't dis the invisible jewish Zombie in the sky ... he is on your side

and .. you seem to be following his word ... shipping me in from europe and all



_____________________________

proudly wearing the blue collar of consideration to DK Leather, Leatherdykeuk, and LeatherEagle of the UK KRueL Leather Family

veritas, respectus honorque in corio





(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Religion & BDSM - 6/26/2008 10:14:47 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: softness

See DV .. you shouldn't dis the invisible jewish Zombie in the sky ... he is on your side


I seriously doubt they (monotheism is a "recent" thing in Judaism) are Jewish.

quote:

and .. you seem to be following his word ... shipping me in from europe and all


About that... there has been a problem with your ticket reservation... if you'll just give me the details, I'll make the necessary arrangements to have you arrive at the correct destination in a timely manner. I'll even pick you up at the airport myself. Er... I mean, I'll even tell DV to pick you up at the airport himself... Yeah... That's it. No way am I hijacking you. Uh-uh. Your details are perfectly safe with me.

Us Vikings stopped raiding the UK for slaves ages ago...

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to softness)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Religion & BDSM - 6/26/2008 10:24:40 PM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline 		oh yeah, Aswad?

then explain the fact that my Norwegian ancestored father married my Scottish ancestored mother.. *grin* (after getting her knocked up... )

_____________________________

polysnortatious
Supreme Goddess of Snark
CHARTER MEMBER: Lance's Fag Hags!
Waiting for my madman in a Blue Box.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 20
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