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jlf1961 -> RE: Bush to lift North Korean sactions?!?!! (6/30/2008 3:04:14 AM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bethnai
BY ROBERT NOVAK SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST
An eight-year-old Senate report confirms that disease- producing and poisonous materials were exported, under U.S. government license, to Iraq from 1985 to 1988 during the Iran-Iraq war. Furthermore, the report adds, the American- exported materials were identical to microorganisms destroyed by United Nations inspectors after the Gulf War. The shipments were approved despite allegations that Saddam used biological weapons against Kurdish rebels and (according to the current official U.S. position) initiated war with Iran.
That suggests Rumsfeld also has not read the sole surviving copy of a May 25, 1994, Senate Banking Committee report. In 1985 (five years after the Iraq-Iran war started) and succeeding years, said the report, ''pathogenic (meaning ''disease producing''), toxigenic (meaning ''poisonous'') and other biological research materials were exported to Iraq, pursuant to application and licensing by the U.S. Department of Commerce.'' It added: ''These exported biological materials were not attenuated or weakened and were capable of reproduction.''
Bethnai, please note the area I highlighted, the key words in that phrase is 'under license' and also note the licensing agency, the department of commerce.
Now, let me explain just what Anthrax is:
Anthrax is an acute infectious disease caused by the spore-forming bacterium Bacillus anthracis. Anthrax most commonly occurs in wild and domestic lower vertebrates (cattle, sheep, goats, camels, antelopes, and other herbivores), but it can also occur in humans when they are exposed to infected animals or tissue from infected animals.
Where it is most common:
Anthrax is most common in agricultural regions where it occurs in animals. These include South and Central America, Southern and Eastern Europe, Asia, Africa, the Caribbean, and the Middle East.
Now, Bethnai, you stated the US Government supplied Hussein with biological and chemical weapons. This is not true. The article you quote even proves this. No where does it say the United States sold biological weapons to Iraq.
What was sold was the Anthrax Bacillus which is used to make the vaccine to protect against Anthrax, which is very common in the middle east and the Tigris/Euphrates river valley.
While it is true that could have been, and was used to make bio weapons, there is a major difference between what was sold and a weapon based anthrax. Something you may wish to look into.
By the way, the CDC routinely exports bio agents to countries to allow them to pursue independant preventitive research.
As for the toxigenic compounds, would it surprize you to learn that fertilizer, the chemicals to make fertilizer, and a hundred other products come under the heading of toxigenic. The next time you are on the highway, look at some of the big trucks passing you on the highway, I would bet that you see a few placard loads, those are toxicgenic compounds.
A few household toxigenic compounds include drain cleaners, bleach, bug spray, bug bombs, just to name a few. And guess what the first gas used by the germans in WW1 was.... CHOLORINE... you know, the stuff they make bleach out of?
Furthermore, you probably have the ingrediants for a really nasty chemical agent called phosgene in your home.
Now, the united states could easily stop exports of all toxigenic compounds. No problem. That means we dont export batteries, chemical cleaning compounds, sanitizing compounds, medical equipment such as xray machines, a slew of medical supplies, borax, mineral spirits (pain thinner), turpintine, plastic, wood, grain, suger, sorghum....
Want me to continue?
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ORIGINAL: Bethnai
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention ( news - web sites) sent samples directly to several Iraqi sites that U.N. weapons inspectors determined were part of Saddam Hussein ( news - web sites)'s biological weapons program, CDC and congressional records from the early 1990s show. Iraq had ordered the samples, claiming it needed them for legitimate medical research.
Under International Law, no government can deny access to any compound that is to be used in medical research, and with the high incidence of Anthrax in the region, as well as other diseases, there was no justification in saying no.
You yourself made the claim that Iraq had a better than average health care system, well to get that, you have to do research.
That is a big point to make, again, the CDC exports many pathogens every year for legitimate medical research. There is no way to control what happens to the compounds after getting to their destinations.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bethnai
Iraq Arms: Big Help from US
Throughout the period that Rumsfeld was Reagan’s Middle East envoy, Iraq was frantically purchasing hardware from American firms, empowered by the White House to sell. The buying frenzy began immediately after Iraq was removed from the list of alleged sponsors of terrorism in 1982. According to a February 13, 1991 Los Angeles Times article:
"First on Hussein's shopping list was helicopters -- he bought 60 Hughes helicopters and trainers with little notice. However, a second order of 10 twin-engine Bell "Huey" helicopters, like those used to carry combat troops in Vietnam, prompted congressional opposition in August, 1983... Nonetheless, the sale was approved."
In 1984, according to The LA Times, the State Department in the name of "increased American penetration of the extremely competitive civilian aircraft market "pushed through the sale of 45 Bell 214ST helicopters to Iraq. The helicopters, worth some $200 million, were originally designed for military purposes. The New York Times later reported that Saddam "transferred many, if not all [of these helicopters] to his military."
Source: List Includes U.S. Firms That Aided Iraqis
1994 report by the Senate Banking Committee concluded that "the United States provided the government of Iraq with 'dual-use' licensed materials which assisted in the development of Iraqi chemical, biological and missile-system programs."
This assistance, according to the report, included "chemical warfare-agent precursors; chemical warfare-agent production facility plans and technical drawings; chemical warfare filling equipment; biological warfare-related materials; missile fabrication equipment and missile system guidance equipment."
How he US armed Saddam Hussein with chemical weapons In March 1981, US Secretary of State Alexander Haig excitedly told the Senate foreign relations committee that Iraq was concerned by “the behaviour of Soviet imperialism in the Middle Eastern region”. The Soviet government had refused to deliver arms to Iraq as long as Baghdad continued its military offensive against Iran. Moscow was also unhappy with the Hussein's vicious repression of the Iraqi Communist Party.
Washington's support (innocuously referred to as a “tilt” at the time) for Iraq became more open after Iran succeeded in driving Iraqi forces from its territory in May 1982; in June, Iran went on the offensive against Iraq. The US scrambled to stem Iraq's military setbacks. Washington and its conservative Arab allies suddenly feared Iran might even defeat Iraq, or at least cause the collapse of Hussein's regime.
Using its allies in the Middle East, Washington funnelled huge supplies of arms to Iraq. Classified State Department cables uncovered by Frantz and Waas described covert transfers of howitzers, helicopters, bombs and other weapons to Baghdad in 1982-83 from Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Kuwait.
Howard Teicher, who monitored Middle East policy at the US National Security Council during the Reagan administration, told the February 23, 1992, LA Times: “There was a conscious effort to encourage third countries to ship US arms or acquiesce in shipments after the fact. It was a policy of nods and winks.”
Bethnai, please not the highlighted years, while the articles and reports were printed in 1991 through 1994, all weapon sales were made between 1981 and 1985, which happened to be the year that Iraq gassed the Kurds, and we cut off all aid to Hussein's regime.
Immediately after that, Saddam went to the Soviet Union which sold him everything he wanted, INCLUDING the actual equipment needed to produce more complex chemical and biological weapons.
However, your statement was:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bethnai
Right after the Gulf War, the one where Kuwait was called out for drilling sideways into Iraq for oil-the one that Saddam told his cousin 3 times to stop jacking with the oil, Stormin' Norman turned around and gave Saddam the military equipment to put down two Kurdish uprisings.
Which never happened. Sorry, but nope, never happened, Stormin Norman didnt give Hussein anything but a mechanized enema. Now, once again you have twisted the facts to suit your argument, even changed the years in which things took place.
So once more I am going to ask, if Stormin Norman gave all this equipment to Saddam as you claimed he did, WHY DID OUR ABRAMS TANKS NEVER MEET AN IRAQI ABRAMS TANK IN COMBAT?
Now, For the record, I never supported the war in Iraq, I believe and continue to believe that President Bush lied about weapons of mass destruction, it is proved that Saddam Hussein never supported Al Q'aada, and Bin Laden, so every reason he gave for the invasion was pure lies, plain and simple.
HOWEVER IF YOU ARE GOING TO ARGUE A POINT, AT LEAST GET THE FACTS STRAIGHT, AS IN DATES, REASONS FOR THE ACTION, AND WHAT EXACTLY WAS INVOLVED.
There is a big difference between chemicals that can be used to make chemical warfare agents and selling the agents themselves, just as there is a big difference between weaponized Anthrax and what is used for research.
Your statement about the United States selling chemical and biological weapons was and will remain false with no facts to back it up. You have provided facts to support the CDC selling bio samples to Iraq for Legitimate Medical Research.
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