Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

The Evils of Big Gov't


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> The Evils of Big Gov't Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
The Evils of Big Gov't - 6/27/2008 8:37:48 AM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline
Everything in this Op is JMO.  If I use a factoid, and don't furnish a cite for it, feel free to ask if you want one.
 
'Big Government' as I use that term has its roots in the 'New Deal', circa 1933, spearheaded by Franklin Roosevelt. 
 
quote:

Several New Deal programs remain active with some still operating under the original names, including the:
Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC), the Federal Housing Administration (FHA), and the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA). The largest programs still in existence today are the Social Security System and Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC).

 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal
 
The next major expansion of government was known as the 'Great Society', spearheaded by Lyndon Johnson circa 1964.
 
quote:

While some of the programs have been eliminated or had their funding reduced, many of them, including
Medicare, Medicaid, and federal education funding, continue to the present.

 
Social Security, begun in 1935, is the first entitlement program for 'unemployables' as compared to 'make work' programs like the Tennessee Valley Authority.  Entitlement programs swelled to massive size during the next 61 years, giving rise to the phrase 'the Welfare State'.
 
http://www.crf-usa.org/bria/bria14_3.html#welfare
 
quote:

Over the years, Congress added new programs. President Lyndon B. Johnson's "War on Poverty" provided major non-cash benefits to AFDC recipients as well as to other needy persons. In 1964, Congress approved a food stamp program for all low-income households. The next year, Congress created Medicaid, a federal and state funded health-care system for the destitute elderly, disabled persons, and AFDC families. In 1974, during the Nixon presidency, Congress established the Supplemental Security Income (SSI) program to provide aid to the needy elderly, blind, and disabled. This program made up the last major component of the federal welfare system.


By 1994, more of the nation's needy families, elderly, and disabled received federal welfare than ever before. Aid to Families with Dependent Children alone supported more than 14 million children and their parents.

.
http://www.crf-usa.org/bria/bria14_3.html#work
 
Yes, I recognise that the Welfare to Work Program was spearheaded by Bill Clinton, circa 1990.
 
However, query how much goverment has shrunk because of Clinton's Program, as so many old entitlement programs still persist.
 
quote:

To encourage the various states to participate, various federal programs provide assistance and funding for
transportation, vocational training, child care, and substance abuse treatment assistance for welfare recipients.

 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare-to-work
 
So what has been the result of all this?  The federal government increased in size between 1933 and the present by 462%.


Population increased during this same period by only 71%.  At present, the federal government employs almost 3 million workers in a vast array of agencies and programs, most of which did not exist prior to 1930.
 
Examine an exerpt of an article on the topic circa 1974:
 
quote:

Seen from the perspective of the federal government alone, the statistics are no less dramatic and amply demonstrate the extraordinary expansion of federal services, especially in the last forty-five years.

 
• Roughly 78 per cent of all federal civilian jobs now in existence have been added since 1930. Approximately 30 per cent have been added since 1950.
 
• When George Washington took office in 1789, the nation’s population was estimated at 3.5 million; the bureaucracy numbered a mere 340. By 1974 the population had multiplied sixty times; the bureaucracy, 8,170 times.
 
• Between 1930 and 1950 the population increased by 23 per cent; the bureaucracy increased by 326 per cent.
 
• Between 1930 and 1974 the population grew by 71 per cent; the bureaucracy, by 462 per cent.
 
• At the present time there are 2,777,586 employees on the federal civilian payroll, or roughly one employee for every 77 persons in the population. This compares to one for every 375 in 1900 and one for 204 in 1930.
 
• Surprisingly, the ratio of federal employees to population in 1974 is about the same as in 1950, because the bureaucratic growth of 41 per cent was matched by a population increase of 39 per cent.
 
• The federal budget for the first two years of government, beginning in 1789, was $4.3 million, at a per capita cost of only $1.22. By 1930, when the budget reached $3.5 billion, the per capita cost was $28. In 1950 budget expenditures totalled $39 billion, at a per capita cost of $260.
 
• The proposed budget for fiscal 1975 is $304 billion, a figure roughly 8,950 times greater than the two-year budget for 1789-91. The per capita cost is approximately $1,500.

 
http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/1974/5/1974_5_65.shtml
 
quote:

The Republican Party's oft-stated affinity for smaller government has not applied during the Bush administration. According to a recent study, not only is the number of federal civil servants on the rise, but so are the numbers of employees working for government-funded contractors and for organizations that receive government grants. Roll all of those together -- and mix in the numbers of postal workers and military personnel on the federal payroll -- and the "true size" of the federal government stands at 14.6 million employees, said Paul C. Light, the study's author and a government professor at New York University.

 
That compares with 12.1 million employees in 2002, said Light, who has tracked the growth of government for years and has data for as far back as 1990. The latest increase is almost entirely due to contractors, whose ranks swelled by 2.5 million since 2002, Light wrote in his 10-page research brief.

 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/05/AR2006100501782.html
 
Acording to the Bureau of Labor Statistics:
 
quote:

Between 2006 and 2016, government employment, not including employment in public education and hospitals, is expected to increase by 4.8 percent, from 10.8 million to 11.3 million jobs.

 
http://www.bls.gov/oco/oco2003.htm
 
So, what are the Evils of Big Government IMO?  They are myriad; I plan to limit the Op to addressing the impact of this expansion of the poor, but many, many other aspects of Big Government could be examined and criticised just as harshly.
 
* Most people, and almost all politicians, are driven to maintain their jobs and increase their 'power base'.  For politicos and government employees, this translates into expansion of government.  Any government program no matter it's nature is difficult or impossible to eliminate or even reduce.
 
* Government workers and politicos who derive their employment or 'power base' from entitlement programs such as AFDC have a vested interest in expanding the client base:  capturing as many people as possible as AFDC recipients and preventing as many as possble from departing the program.
 
* As a result, the poor have faced new and sometimes insurmountable obstacles in their efforts to move up to the middle class -- obstacles placed in their path by Big Government.  The very design of entitlement programs such as AFDC broke apart families, detered marriage, undercut parental authority, and worst of all, prevented many recipients from forming an education and work ethic that would allow them to gain access to the middle class.
 
* Government programs that administered entitlement programs were riddled with irrationality, uneven client treatment, poor employee performance, and pockets of corruption.  It isn't difficult to find news stories about welfare workers who embezzled from the government.  The commonly-held belief that 'welfare queens' who had cannily sussed out various ways to increase their income is severely challeneged by extent of the corruption of welfare workers themselves.    
 
* As the tax burden of government rose, resentment among the middle and upper classes towards the poor rose.  I'm not saying there was no 'class-ism' in America prior to 1930, but it was vastly exacerbated by the time the 1990's rolled around.

What, IMO, should be done?  The government -- most especially the federal government -- should be radically reduced in size, budget, total employees and permissible functions.  The government should be scaled as far back as possble, so that it performs only 'true' governmental functions, such as protecting the borders and collecting the garbage.
 
candystripper

 


< Message edited by candystripper -- 6/27/2008 9:13:09 AM >
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: The Evils of Big Gov't - 6/27/2008 9:00:25 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
I couldn't make it through all of that, purple on white is low contrast and just too much work for me to bother with, but I can't let your opening swipes at the TVA go unanswered.

The TVA has been an enormous success and costs you nothing at all. It provides affordable electricity from a clean source, in the past it did operate nuclear plants but I think those are all retired, to a large swath of appalachia. A region that is geographically and economically challenging to electrify. Building the dams and hydro power stations as well as building the electrical distribution network employed many thousands of people in the worst days of the great depression and certainly kept people who were too proud to take handouts from starving.

(in reply to candystripper)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: The Evils of Big Gov't - 6/27/2008 9:18:19 AM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline
Sorry about the low contrast; lemme see if the edit button still works and I'll try bolding the text.  Just a moment.

Okay, done...hope You can read it now.

BTW, this is all I had to say about the TVA:

quote:

Social Security, begun in 1935, is the first entitlement program for 'unemployables' as compared to 'make work' programs like the Tennessee Valley Authority.  Entitlement programs swelled to massive size during the next 61 years, giving rise to the phrase 'the Welfare State'.

 
http://www.crf-usa.org/bria/bria14_3.html#welfare


I never meant to imply the TVA was a detriment to the nation, in the 1930's or now.  I apologise if that wasn't clear.
 
BTW, please try and refrain from jumping my sh*t for the bolded text.  Frankly, since I felt compelled to relinquish the pink color and adopted the purple instead, I myself have thought it was too 'translucent' to be readable.
 
candystripper


< Message edited by candystripper -- 6/27/2008 9:22:10 AM >

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: The Evils of Big Gov't - 6/27/2008 9:24:07 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

Sorry about the low contrast; lemme see if the edit button still works and I'll try blding the text.  Just a moment.

Okay, done...hope You can read it now.

BTW, this is all I had to say about the TVA:

quote:

Social Security, begun in 1935, is the first entitlement program for 'unemployables' as compared to 'make work' programs like the Tennessee Valley Authority.  Entitlement programs swelled to massive size during the next 61 years, giving rise to the phrase 'the Welfare State'.

 
http://www.crf-usa.org/bria/bria14_3.html#welfare


I never meant to imply the TVA was a detriment to the nation, in the 1930's or now.  I apologise if that wasn't clear.
 
BTW, please try and refrain from jumping my sh*t for the bolded text.  Frankly, since I felt compelled to relinquish the pink color and adopted the purple instead, I myself have thought it was too 'translucent' to be readable.
 
candystripper


I'm not jumping your anything. I'm just stating a fact. I write software for a living and spend all day in front of this monitor and simply don't need the extra eye strain.

As to you not saying anything bad about the TVA, you did mention it as a 'make work' program as if that was somehow bad in a thread you titled "The Evils of Big Gov't."

(in reply to candystripper)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: The Evils of Big Gov't - 6/27/2008 9:47:05 AM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

As to you not saying anything bad about the TVA, you did mention it as a 'make work' program as if that was somehow bad in a thread you titled "The Evils of Big Gov't."

DomKen


I aplogise DomKen; I can understand why You thought i meant to imply the TVA was a detriment.  I do not -- though I do question whether today's government could replicate any of the benefits of the TVA and other New Deal 'make work' programs.  
 
There are still traces of WPA projects around.  I've seen the tiled mosaics they created to decorate train stations in cities like DC, and the beauty and craftsmanship of their work is amazing.
 
Like the TVA, the WPA is almost universally regarded as an overwhelming success that left a lasting legacy which benefits the nation even today.
 
BTW, the 'jump my sh*t' comment cetainly asn't directed at You, DomKen -- it was directed at the clique of members who pester me ceaselessly about the appearance of my posts. 
 
I have no doubt You have much better things to do than play such silly games on the boards.
 
candystripper 

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: The Evils of Big Gov't - 6/27/2008 12:39:43 PM   
UncleNasty


Posts: 1108
Joined: 3/20/2004
Status: offline
Google the "Grace Commission."

One of the first things Reagan (another false "smaller government" republican) did when taking office was to have the commission study how the gubmint spends money.

in the broadstrokes the answer came back: not a penny of the money of the money stolen from you in the unconstitutional tax scheme goes to pay for any governmental programs. That money, your money, is eaten up by waste spending and inefficiencies and to pay the national debt and the interest on that.

Gubmint raises the money it needs by simply turning on the presses, creating it out of thin air (read the Federal Reserve System publication "Modern Money Mechanics" for more on this). In essence they borrow more money, create more debt and interest - AND continue to take more of your money and give you less for it.

Uncle Nasty

(in reply to candystripper)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: The Evils of Big Gov't - 6/27/2008 1:10:27 PM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline
You are wasting your breath. Everyone is voting for more government in this election cycle which only speed up what is leading to the coming depression.

< Message edited by cyberdude611 -- 6/27/2008 1:11:10 PM >

(in reply to candystripper)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: The Evils of Big Gov't - 6/27/2008 1:23:22 PM   
Slavehandsome


Posts: 382
Joined: 9/19/2004
Status: offline
Its a complex job managing Heaven and Hell.  Probably the easiest business model is to separate the Haves from the Have-Nots.  The Ugly from the Beautiful.  As for the expansion of government, its important to focus on the fact that the #1 priority of Power is to remain in power.  Everything else falls somewhere behind that.  The tyrants who have ruled throughout history have all been willing to sacrifice whoever else or whatever else for them to stay in power.  Some things never change.  If you buy into the idea that the Democrats are different from the Republicans, you've already lost the battle, and none of this will make any sense.  Zoom out and look at what's going on.  The premise during the Cold War, that "we" are different from "them" is quickly being replaced by the same police state that Stalin put in place  (Show me your papers).  Oops, I have to go now.  I'll be back!

Slavehandsome

(in reply to cyberdude611)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: The Evils of Big Gov't - 6/27/2008 3:09:56 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
There are some very smart people running the show. But even they know we're on borrowed time. The fact is, the entire financial/monetary system is doomed. Since all money is debt, the only way to service existing debt is to create even more debt. This scheme cannot perpetuate itself indefinitely. It's already beginning to crush under its own weight.

The question is... similarly to the New Deal that followed the Great Depression, what ready-made solution does the PTB have in store for us? 

(in reply to candystripper)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: The Evils of Big Gov't - 6/27/2008 3:37:15 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

There are some very smart people running the show. But even they know we're on borrowed time. The fact is, the entire financial/monetary system is doomed. Since all money is debt, the only way to service existing debt is to create even more debt.

Didn't I already correct you on this claim once before?
Why yes I did
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=1566904

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: The Evils of Big Gov't - 6/27/2008 4:35:14 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
Here is your so-called correction:

"The government eliminating its debt would be possible simply by ceasing borrowing long term and devoting a small amount every year to paying off maturing T Bonds. This would gradually shrink the number of T Bonds in circulation which would be mildly deflationary. However with less T Bond investment the institutional buyers would move their money into muni bonds and the like, which lower interest rates for infrastructure and other long term projects where bond sales are a reasonable way to finance the projects would become easier to finance and less of a tax burden, which ultimately is better for all of us. And that completely neglects that as the debt declines a balanced budget could be maintained with progressively lower tax rates which would make everyone, escpecially our descendants, happy."

First of all, I was referring to the entire monetary system, not just government debt. 

Even so, I don't believe for a moment that government will cease borrowing long term. Even if they did, they would devote a small amount of what every year, and just where would it come from?  

Are you suggesting that our monetary system is not based upon monetized debt?

And aren't muni-bonds and "other long term projects" financed by bond sales just more debt?

When debt declines, the money supply declines along with it. There can never be enough money to pay off all debt in our monetary system. It doesn't exist.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: The Evils of Big Gov't - 6/27/2008 7:10:58 PM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

There are some very smart people running the show. But even they know we're on borrowed time. The fact is, the entire financial/monetary system is doomed. Since all money is debt, the only way to service existing debt is to create even more debt. This scheme cannot perpetuate itself indefinitely. It's already beginning to crush under its own weight.

The question is... similarly to the New Deal that followed the Great Depression, what ready-made solution does the PTB have in store for us? 


Quick question, subfever:  who or what is the 'PTB'?
 
candystripper

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: The Evils of Big Gov't - 6/27/2008 8:42:39 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

Here is your so-called correction:

"The government eliminating its debt would be possible simply by ceasing borrowing long term and devoting a small amount every year to paying off maturing T Bonds. This would gradually shrink the number of T Bonds in circulation which would be mildly deflationary. However with less T Bond investment the institutional buyers would move their money into muni bonds and the like, which lower interest rates for infrastructure and other long term projects where bond sales are a reasonable way to finance the projects would become easier to finance and less of a tax burden, which ultimately is better for all of us. And that completely neglects that as the debt declines a balanced budget could be maintained with progressively lower tax rates which would make everyone, escpecially our descendants, happy."

First of all, I was referring to the entire monetary system, not just government debt. 

Even so, I don't believe for a moment that government will cease borrowing long term. Even if they did, they would devote a small amount of what every year, and just where would it come from?  

Are you suggesting that our monetary system is not based upon monetized debt?

And aren't muni-bonds and "other long term projects" financed by bond sales just more debt?

When debt declines, the money supply declines along with it. There can never be enough money to pay off all debt in our monetary system. It doesn't exist.

Such convienent cutting and pasting.

You still don't get this so I'll explain it again. The US dollar is fiat money. IOW it represents nothing. It can be printed and no new debt issued to "support" it. Hard currency, money backed by some commodity, is a debt since every coin minted or bill printed requires a corresponding purchase of that commodity.

IOW your statement is simply false. An old silver certificate was an IOU. It was theoretically possible to go to some treasury office somewhere and swap them for sterling. The present dollar is not an IOU. There is nothing behind it. It is simply a symbol allowing for less complicated trading of goods and services.

Stop believing every claim you read in some tax protester website and go talk to an actual economist if you refuse to believe me.

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: The Evils of Big Gov't - 6/27/2008 11:11:41 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
Okay, let's do this one step at a time.

Do you believe, or disbelieve that our monetary system is based upon monetized debt?

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: The Evils of Big Gov't - 6/27/2008 11:13:32 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

There are some very smart people running the show. But even they know we're on borrowed time. The fact is, the entire financial/monetary system is doomed. Since all money is debt, the only way to service existing debt is to create even more debt. This scheme cannot perpetuate itself indefinitely. It's already beginning to crush under its own weight.

The question is... similarly to the New Deal that followed the Great Depression, what ready-made solution does the PTB have in store for us? 


Quick question, subfever:  who or what is the 'PTB'?
 
candystripper


PTB = Powers That Be

(in reply to candystripper)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: The Evils of Big Gov't - 6/28/2008 7:40:39 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

Okay, let's do this one step at a time.

Do you believe, or disbelieve that our monetary system is based upon monetized debt?

It is not. One more time, the dollar is fiat money. There is not a T-bond or other Treasury debt instrument backing each dollar just like there is no commodity backing each one.

Once more fiat money is not debt or anything else. It is simply a convenient symbol.

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: The Evils of Big Gov't - 6/28/2008 12:15:38 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

Okay, let's do this one step at a time.

Do you believe, or disbelieve that our monetary system is based upon monetized debt?

It is not. One more time, the dollar is fiat money. There is not a T-bond or other Treasury debt instrument backing each dollar just like there is no commodity backing each one.

Once more fiat money is not debt or anything else. It is simply a convenient symbol.


I agree the dollar is fiat currency, and never said otherwise. However, some economists claim that debt money is a form of fiat currency, which can be distinguished from a true fiat currency in that it is intrinsically temporary money, requiring its eventual repayment as a condition of its creation.

The principle of our current system is provide money to the people as interest-bearing debt, monetized by the banks, based on future production. The debt must constantly grow as the interest compounds, since money to pay the interest is never created.

This ever-increrasing debt causes higher prices, higher taxes, and constant loss of buying power, which burdens create diminished unit-volume demand, which itself results in lay-offs, down-sizing and mergers while increasing tax pressures on the remaining employed for ever-increasing social programs.

The system doesn't create the additional money needed to fill the shortage caused by the compounding debt. This stress causes a growing feeling of frustration, anger, and demoralization for millions of people, which contributes to the loss of liberty and makes the Pursuit of Happiness increasingly difficult.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: The Evils of Big Gov't - 6/28/2008 2:27:22 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever
I agree the dollar is fiat currency, and never said otherwise. However, some economists claim that debt money is a form of fiat currency, which can be distinguished from a true fiat currency in that it is intrinsically temporary money, requiring its eventual repayment as a condition of its creation.

Reference please.
Debt currency is a pretty rare term in economics and is usually used to mean a fully convertible currency, i.e. hard money.

However there is one area where this term appears frequently. That is the tax protesters BS field. As near as I and others can find the term is based on this entirely made up document:
http://www.gemworld.com/US--DebtCurrency.htm

quote:

The principle of our current system is provide money to the people as interest-bearing debt, monetized by the banks, based on future production.
The debt must constantly grow as the interest compounds, since money to pay the interest is never created.

This assertion is wrong from top to bottom. First of all the national debts has both increased and declined during the era of fiat money. The number of dollars has no relationship to the national debt beyond the fact that since the debt is enumerated in dollars it is part of the money in circulation.

You really need to talk to an actual economist not a tax evader to get monetary theory information.

quote:

This ever-increrasing debt causes higher prices, higher taxes, and constant loss of buying power, which burdens create diminished unit-volume demand, which itself results in lay-offs, down-sizing and mergers while increasing tax pressures on the remaining employed for ever-increasing social programs.

I'm going to shock you here so prepare yourself, prices went up, taxes went up and buying power went down when the US dollar was a hard currency. As a matter of fact recent swings in the economy are nothing compared to how things used to be. You need to look into bank runs and panics as well as the Great Depression.

Furthermore whether social programs exist or are a burden on an economy is completely irrespective of the type of money that nation might have.

I will also point out many nations with fiat money based on the same system we use that have virtually no national debt and much larger social safety net programs. Denmark is an excellent example. A thriving economy with the same sort of moderate price and wage inflation required by an expanding population and economy. The Danish government owes a debt equal to 26% of the GDP and i son track to pay off their entire debt by 2015. That compares not very favorable with the US where the government debt is over 65% of our GDP and is growing. These stark differences are in spite of the fact that both nations have a free floating fiat currency and social safety net programs paid for with taxes.

I will encourage you to not be so parochial as to think that the US is the only situation available for consideration and that other examples heartily disprove your basic assumptions.

quote:

The system doesn't create the additional money needed to fill the shortage caused by the compounding debt. This stress causes a growing feeling of frustration, anger, and demoralization for millions of people, which contributes to the loss of liberty and makes the Pursuit of Happiness increasingly difficult.

Large public debt is a bad thing. However you fundamentally misunderstand US monetary policy.

The US operates with the intention to allow only the small inflation rate inevitable in a growing economy and produces currency in accordance with this policy. It does not create money simply to pay off the debt or to make more money available for the US government to spend. That policy which you seem to be advocating is a sure route to hyperinflation and the collapse of the economy.

I'm going to reiterate my suggestion that you stop reading tax protester websites and instead actually go and talk to an actual economist.

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 18
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> The Evils of Big Gov't Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.203