RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (Full Version)

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CallaFirestormBW -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (7/3/2008 7:02:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fluffyswitch


i cannot grok in fullness yet as i am but an egg!!!

damn i feel like a geek now...



I, too, am but an egg... but one can always hope... have a little broth with that? [;)]

FS




fluffyswitch -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (7/3/2008 7:04:30 PM)

yes. and then we shall share water.




Aswad -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (7/3/2008 7:05:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerinBlack

3) The desire to do this seems to be unhealthy, if anyone can propose ANY standard of health which includes this act, please say so.


Several people have done just that.

Bear in mind that, from an atheist stance, spiritual health is emotional health, which is part of mental health.

quote:

5) Many people who are mentally ill or even just in distress need help in becoming happy and functioning again.


That's hardly contested.

What is contested is who gets to decide that someone needs help. If I need help, I ask for it; if I haven't asked for it, any "help" that might be rendered isn't about helping me, but helping others. Most likely helping others sleep more soundly with their blinders on and their mental pupils contracted to the point of miosis.

Granted, acute psychosis and the like may arguably be said to constitute a "veil" between the "actual" person and the outside world, and might well be a case where others have to decide whether a need is present, but such a thing can be opt-in or opt-out, rather than compulsory, so long as the person doesn't pose a threat to non-consenting parties.

Then again, I don't think we were discussing whether psychotic people are mentally ill...

quote:

8) Cosmetic Surgery does not usually cause lasting functional damage and does not really relate to this.


Neither does removing the labia and consuming it.

In fact, labioplasty is an increasingly common cosmetic procedure.

Would you say that such a practice in the context of consensual adults is unhealthy?

quote:

9) While this act may have a spiritual component, im having a hard time seeing its relation to kink.


Love and its physical fulfillment is spiritual to many. Kink can involve love. What's the difficulty?

quote:

10) Everyone is making a lot of assumptions about the mental health of the man in question, how many of you really support anyone who wants to kill  or permanently disable themselves, any time, anywhere, without any kind of supervision or evaluation?


For an apparently rational individual, no problem. And I also don't have a big issue with checking to see if someone is reasonably rational if they appear not to be. I've sat with people who were contemplating suicide, and I've talked people out of it. Generally, it is pretty clear who is thinking it over to the best of their abilities, and who is just reacting to momentary (or extended) despair.

Fortunately, I've not yet been with anyone who couldn't be talked out of it. I imagine it would be rather trying to keep them company while they expire, and no way would I ask someone I didn't actively hate to spend their last moments alone.

quote:

11) No one is saying that doing these things under extreemly aware/spiritual contexts is somehow wrong or insane.


Actually, that has been said, but I can't recall you saying it.

quote:

However, the desire to give or recieve permanant harm seems to be missing the point of most spiritual goals I am aware of, anyone else disagree?


Yes. For instance, crucifixion can be a transformative experience in the vein of Imitatio Iesu.

Similarly, the figurative passing on of someone's essence- or part thereof- by the literal consumption of their flesh has figured prominently in many older religions, and figures in a few modern ones (although, for legal reasons, most have compromised their practices by performing a symbolic act instead of the real deal).

It's also a central element of burial rites in some areas, but that doesn't do harm to the donor.

quote:

14) Mental health is not a meaningless concept, there are concrete and functional differences between someone who can manage their lives without coming  to severe harm or distress and someone who can not. This reality can not be denied.


I don't think any rational participant would claim that mental health is an entirely meaningless concept.

But neither can it be denied that harm, distress and function are inexticably linked to social norms (heck... Rind et al?). Withdrawal from social norms and conventions is indeed considered diagnostic in several recognized conditions, and hardly socially accepted. Similarly, social norms are a pivotal element of diagnosing delusions, for instance. Absolute faith in some major recognized deity is considered non-pathological, and neither is absolute certainty about something that is proven to be factually false if it is accepted as true in the host culture.

If Jesus were (re)born today, he would be diagnosed and sectioned, pretty much.

Which isn't a matter of mental health, so much as one of mental health professionals' practices and the DSM.

Also, like most medicine, mental health rejects the notion that a patient has the liberty to determine for themselves what constitutes the best possible life for them and to stand accountable for those choices. It is a legacy of the arrogance of the medical profession that grants doctors the legal right to overrule choices made by a rational patient. Such was greatly exploited under the USSR regime, and is currently being exploited in China, with the diagnosis of drug dependency allowing doctors to rule patients unfit to decide that there are better options for them than severing the pathways to the nucleus accumbens (IIRC).

Health,
al-Aswad.




Aswad -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (7/3/2008 7:10:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

And why on earth would you want to drag somebody else into it?


Would you want to die alone?

Besides, one can talk someone into suicide as easily as assisted suicide.

Health,
al-Aswad.




Aswad -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (7/3/2008 7:37:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

Ethics is science of cause and effect: how do your actions affect other people.


Eh. No. Ethics is the attempt to rationally- or at least systematically- apply subjective and (usually) inconsistent moral principles that have broad support. Cause and effect are only implied insofar as they are implied in anything. Most paradigms reject one or more things as inherently unethical, regardless of the consequences. Similarly, using effects on other people as the basis of ethics would constrain the definition to certain moralities, thus depriving it of its universality and necessitating a new term to cover application of less popular value systems.

Even an absolutist like Kohlberg recognized that moral fortitude is distinct from value content.

quote:

most people who wish ot commit suicide by and large feel that way due to depression, bipolar disorder, etc. - painful yes, terminal, not neccessarily.


In this, treatment refractory depression is little different from terminal cancer: sure, a cure may come along, but unless you happen to be in the right place at the right time, and can bear it for that long on the mere hope that it will arrive, then you're screwed. There are cases where suicide may actually be a legitimate and rational decision, for instance at the start of a relapse, or in patients that are (for all practical purposes) incurable.

At what point does the personal cost of living become too high?

When do you get to the point where no amount of good living will outweigh past suffering?

Cancer is no laughing matter, but at least one person with the grounds for comparison (and a religious prohibition against suicide) has commented that getting a kettle full of still-boiling water poured over your genitals every day for a thousand years would be preferrable to one day of the worst phase of his depression. That comment was from a Catholic, after successful treatment.

I'm not convinced it's a poor reason, although I agree many resort to it too easily.

quote:

In Schiavos case, it was determined that that there was nothing singnificant enough to be gained for anybody, including Schiavo, by keeping her alive, she was basically nothing but a brainstem, all of her cereberal cortex was essentially gone, she wasn't coming back.


Nothing to be lost for anyone but her husband, either (i.e. he couldn't move on).

Essentially the same as a case in the UK, except that one did wake up.

quote:

The Jews, by all accounts went peacefully into the trains, and subsequently, into the showers, was it consensual? You think they couldn't smell the ovens?


Actually, they were told the showers were for clearing out the lice infestation. Which constitutes deception. Kind of like you consenting to me tying you up, and me grabbing the scalpel after I've done so. Scalpels aren't what you consented to. And I would say it makes a difference whether you exert force or not. After all, if they had run, the brown coats would have brought them back anyway.

quote:

It's a can of worms I tell ya, people are fucking devious, it something you have to keep in mind.


And it's not something you can ever guard completely against, either.

But where do you draw the line when protecting a few at the expense of liberty?

Liberty demands sacrifice as much as anything, and if you're willing to give that up for safety at the mercy of a state or system, I fail to see where you deserve any liberty to begin with, something that certain long-dead Americans have commented on, too. It doesn't make matters better that you'd sacrifice my liberty for your safety, either.

Health,
al-Aswad.




Amaros -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (7/3/2008 7:41:36 PM)

Ok, this is not assisted suicide or cosmetic body modification, and the simple fact that anyone who knows about such a thing and does not alert the authorites is quite possibly liable for conspiricy to commit murder - to talk someone into killing themselves can be considered negligent homicide.

Second thing, I'm beginning to suspect the whole thing is apocryphal, or else somebody broke Dr. Patient privilage.

There is this however:

The Jerry Springer Show: "I want to Join a Suicide cult".
August 11, 1997.

Might be better just to debate this whole issue seperately from an incident that may or may not have happened.

I don't really dispute your right to choose your own death, or even the manner, or even who you involve - I dispute that one could become aware of a case like this and rationally justify not taking steps to determine if the suicide is in a rational state of mind or not.




Aswad -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (7/3/2008 7:48:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

Actually, a lot of cannibalistic societies have perished due to prion disease, or have stopped doing it.


Smoking, AIDS, cancer and car accidents don't seem to be stopping any time soon...

But, yes, the pathogenic compatibility and the possibility of prion disease are a major risk.

Health,
al-Aswad.




Aswad -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (7/3/2008 7:52:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

also, you did say in one of your posts very early on in the thread, and i quote:

quote:

That being said, people who cut off large parts of their body have a mental illness.



Thanks for quoting him accurately. That the quoted assertion one of the things that have been addressed by many posters (including me) would seem not to have registered with him. All it takes for him to stop that line of debate is to recant it, rather than insist it's off topic to address that assertion.

Health,
al-Aswad.




Aswad -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (7/3/2008 7:57:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

last i checked, sadomasochism as a whole isn't exactly replete with adaptive evolutionary values.


I'll have to object to that.

Masochism may be a manifestation of the omega trait, which is useful in providing a pack or tribe with a scapegoat to beat up when something goes wrong. Gets their frustrations out without handing Azazyel a goat or two. Sadism is a manifestation of a universal penchant for hunting and violence, plus maybe other stuff. Painplay is a consequence of the need for downregulation of the pain receptors after the initial response, and for continued function and motivation (allowing you to protect the tribe while wounded, or even dying).

For that matter, as an aside, humiliation play may be tied to conquest and dominance.

It is advantageous for people to work well together and defer to a leader.

Much of this is because the bulk follow by default.

Health,
al-Aswad.




Aswad -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (7/3/2008 8:15:25 PM)

Actually, most of it has been about the why of it, Owner4SexSlave.

And the point about giving yourself up for someone else has been raised, but remains a clue to understanding one of the many different reasons some people are fond of the idea. There isn't anything else to give that we know how to, and in that, it can be the most selfless act one can undertake. Either way, there is also the symbolism and the permanence: even a part of the donor still means that- symbolically- a piece of you will always be with that partner, and- literally, like a brand- you will always bear a mark.

A missing part may not be a politically correct wedding band, but it can mean the same thing.

I also sympathize with the notion of meaningful death- giving your death purpose (also, the notion of not letting it be wasted; cf. using all of an animal, rather than just the fur), and perhaps even choosing the time, place and manner of it. That is, in a way, cheating death. Cheating fate. Greek tragedy writers would have loved it. You make a choice and take a stand, and nobody can take that away from you... well, except overeager shrinks that think it's better if you just conform.

In the West, it is acceptable to live- or die- for something ...

... why is it unacceptable or unhealthy when that something is the one whom you love the most?

Health,
al-Aswad.




Aswad -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (7/3/2008 8:19:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

Prion disease only applies where brain tissue is being consumed.


No. That depends on the prion disease. And there are related diseases that carry the same way. Eat the heart of someone with amyloids, and you may well get it, too. As far as kuru type prion diseases go, the brain just has a higher concentration than the rest of the body. You may not get enough that you'll live to see it cause a problem, but it has not yet been determined whether it can be passed on to offspring, as far as I can recall.

Prion diseases aren't exactly something I've studied extensively, but enough to say it's not that simple.

Health,
al-Aswad.




Aswad -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (7/3/2008 8:51:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

A warrior has the right to chose his time and method of death....


Damn straight.

Though I wouldn't reserve it for just warriors.

Quoting the work of the dearly departed "Jim" Rigney:

"It is every man's right to choose when to Sheathe¹ the Sword."

Men (and women; cf. Cumbrians vs Rome, for instance) have a long tradition of being willing, able and proud to govern their own lives to the point of governing their deaths. When Leonidas was given the option to surrender his arms, he merely stated (and quite eloquently, I might add) the consequences of a choice that he had already made: molon lave. In modern terms: over the foregone conclusion of my dead body. They set out as men already dead, and accomplished what they set out to do: delay Xerxes' advance.

This clearly wasn't a physically healthy choice for them, at least in the short term.

As human beings, however, it was the healthiest choice.

Integrity goes beyond mere flesh.

Health,
al-Aswad.

¹ In essence, to choose when and how to die, especially as a sacrifice or last stand.




Aswad -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (7/3/2008 9:14:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

It really quite simple, we simply can't have people cutting themselve into pieces and sending them through the mail for other people to eat, if you want to do that sort of thing, get a room.


Hilarious.

Apart from that, if it were legal, they probably would get a room.

Most places, though, you can't legally stand by without helping while there is a severe medical emergency occuring.

I do know the law up here has closed off all loopholes that cross the line into the legal definition of grievous bodily harm. That includes standing by while the other person does the work. In the example mentioned by the OP, you would also be charged with defiling a corpse, disturbing the dead, obstruction of justice, improper handling, etc. As for what can actually be done, the donor can waive a criminal charge by consent up to grievous bodily harm. In effect, that legally means a significant functional impairment of a permanent nature, defined as anything that would prevent you from working at near full capacity or reproducing properly. A finger, external genitalia, etc... that's unlicenced surgery if the cops find out, maybe bodily insult if they want to make a fuss, provided you don't explicitly press charges. Anything more than that, you're looking at jail, one way or the other. The other party might be convicted of aiding and abetting, due to legal oddities, but the ward is more likely.

In short, getting a room generally stops being an option somewhere along the edge.

Health,
al-Aswad.




Aswad -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (7/3/2008 9:22:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

May you grok in fullness. *wicked grin*


There is only one thing I have grokked so far, apart from life itself, but I guess I'm getting there as far as grokking the powers is concerned. Now all I need are followers, and I can start this insane cult that neither eats people, nor gases bystanders, nor even televangelizes, although I obviously can't guarantee the virtue of any monks or nuns...

[sm=seesaw.gif]

...that's me in the middle there... maybe. [sm=club.gif]

Health,
al-Aswad.




Amaros -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (7/3/2008 9:30:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

also, you did say in one of your posts very early on in the thread, and i quote:

quote:

That being said, people who cut off large parts of their body have a mental illness.



Thanks for quoting him accurately. That the quoted assertion one of the things that have been addressed by many posters (including me) would seem not to have registered with him. All it takes for him to stop that line of debate is to recant it, rather than insist it's off topic to address that assertion.

Health,
al-Aswad.

I would agree that cutting off large body parts is indicative of mental illness - if anything, there is a considerable phobia in most cultures towards amputation, it seriously compromises you ability to earn a living in the sort of labor intensive societies that have existed up until only about 50 years ago - it was not uncommon for amputees, usually veterans, to be disparaged as "half men" - heterochiral symmetry is a significant factor in sexual selection: people with more symmetrical features are commonly judged to be better looking, etc.

Second, there is just no evidence of any culture valuing amputation for any reason other than as a punishment, if anybody has ever heard of any culture anywhere, engaging in amputation for cosmetic or spiritual reasons, I'd be happy to hear about it - piercings, tattoos, even torture, etc., Penitentes, and other forms of ritual self mutilation, sure, but not amputation, and people do some pretty strange things to achieve spiritual states.

In short, it is not neccessarily axiomatic that it is mental illness, it is, perhaps, no more crazy than sitting on top of a pole for Twenty years or growing your fingnails till they're 10 feet long, but it is unusual enough to arouse suspicion.

quote:

No. That depends on the prion disease. And there are related diseases that carry the same way. Eat the heart of someone with amyloids, and you may well get it, too. As far as kuru type prion diseases go, the brain just has a higher concentration than the rest of the body. You may not get enough that you'll live to see it cause a problem, but it has not yet been determined whether it can be passed on to offspring, as far as I can recall.
I corrected this statement a few posts later.

Suicide was often thought to be preferable as it was clean death - i.e., it saved everybody a lot of bother and embarrasment in some cases, pain and lingering death in others.

Many suicides, particularly females, tend to even clean up after themselves so to speak, i.e., they choose less messy methods, they seldom shoot themselves for example, they may lay out a shroud, etc. - this is anything but clean, in fact it seems calculated to put everyone to as much bother as possible if anything, and thus, much easier to interpret as a cry for help or attention.

Again, assuming it is an uncompensated death wish for the sake of argument, it's a choice, meaning, a personal choice, for better or worse, that is the modern standard, and talking someone into it or urging them on is not exactly going to be perceived as noble or spiritual - get used to it.




AtlantisKing111 -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (7/3/2008 10:20:38 PM)

In my opinion it's almost by definition.  It becomes unhealthy when the actions harm the mental, physical and/or spiritual part of one or more of the participants.  It becomes destructive when one or more participants has permanent damage inflicted on them. 

Even if consent is given.




Leatherist -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (7/3/2008 10:26:57 PM)

Fr,I guess the semantic qibbling is getting to me a bit.
 
Let's take a peek at some recent events and decide for ourselves.
 
I think a great deal has to do with culture.
 
*warning" graphic content in the link-don't look if you don't want to see something on the extreme side.*  But this *IS* condoned by the culture in which it happened.
 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=WFWJwNq1ma0




hisannabelle -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (7/3/2008 10:39:02 PM)

quote:

Second, there is just no evidence of any culture valuing amputation for any reason other than as a punishment, if anybody has ever heard of any culture anywhere, engaging in amputation for cosmetic or spiritual reasons, I'd be happy to hear about it - piercings, tattoos, even torture, etc., Penitentes, and other forms of ritual self mutilation, sure, but not amputation, and people do some pretty strange things to achieve spiritual states.


greetings amaros,

as i've already posted, on bmezine (which is a body mod website), there are people living in the modern western world who do amputation (including of the genitals) along with other forms of extreme body modification.

i am most familiar with death and dying in buddhist practice, so here are some quotes:

The passage describes how the bodhisattva,
known in Japanese as Kiken, imbibed and painted his body
with fragrant oils, wrapped himself in pure garments, and then set
himself on fire. This act is praised as ‘‘the prime gift. Among the various
gifts, it is the most honorable, the supreme.’’5 The Buddha S ´ a¯-
kyamuni explains that if one seeking supreme enlightenment ‘‘can
burn a finger or even a toe as an offering to a Buddha stu¯ pa, he shall
exceed one who uses realm or walled city, wife or children, or even
all the lands, mountains, forests, rivers, ponds, and sundry precious
objects in the whole thousand-million world as offerings.’’6 This
story from the Lotus provided the most common scriptural foundation
for East Asian monks and nuns, from medieval to modern
times, who lit themselves on fire as Buddhist offerings.
- from "Passage to Fudaraku" by Moerman, in The Buddhist Dead, edited by Cuevas and Stone. Moerman's article is primarily concerned with the medieval Japanese monastic practice of weighing a boat with stones to drown oneself (known as the passage to Fudaraku), which was often a publicized and celebrated event, but also mentions other instances of ritual suicide as well as, as I quoted, instances where self-harm (often in the form of amputation or burning of fingers/limbs) was practiced but not suicide.

In textual accounts of monks that appeared in collections
of hagiographies under the rubric of self-immolation, we find a
range of acts such as allowing insects to feed on one’s blood, slicing
flesh from the body, and burning the fingers or arms. Not all of
these necessarily resulted in death.
- from "Fire and the Sword" by Benn, in The Buddhist Dead, edited by Cuevas and Stone. This article is primarily concerned with the politics of self-immolation in Buddhist China, but as the quote shows, also mentions instances of amputation, burning of fingers or limbs, and other forms self-harm that did not result in death.

on page six of "Self-Immolation in Buddhist China" by Jan Yun-Hua, she mentions that after the 10th century, some changes in textual emphasis led to a growing tendency to replace immolation of the entire body with the sacrifice of an arm, a few fingers, or just one finger. This article is located in History of Religions vol. 4 no. 2 (Winter 1965) pp. 243-268

if you would like more sources regarding suicide in buddhist practice or the tantric practice of visualizing cannibalism (which may or may not have been practiced in actuality in the past - this is debated among scholars - but is a really widespread practice among tibetan buddhists today - i am actually initiated into it), i'd be happy to help. if you or anyone would like to discuss more about buddhist death and dying (or buddhism in general) i'm always available by message on the other side.

respectfully,
a'ishah.




hisannabelle -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (7/3/2008 10:43:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Quoting the work of the dearly departed "Jim" Rigney:

"It is every man's right to choose when to Sheathe¹ the Sword."


al-aswad,
will you just marry me already?
i am rereading the wheel of time at the moment for the third or fourth time and thought it was rather serendipitous to see that you posted this just now...it is always wonderful to see others who have taken these values to heart as well.
a'ishah.




rulemylife -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (7/4/2008 5:58:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Hey Hannibal, maybe you should stop encouraging someone who is obviously deeply troubled before she does some real damage to herself.


You obviously underestimate her, or overestimate my influence on her. My approval most likely doesn't mean a flying fig to her. If you wish to persuade anyone that your point of view has any merit to it, I would suggest doing so with actual arguments, not simple name-calling. While I just note that it's irrelevant to what you're saying, I have seen it cause people to close their ears to what is said, and that is counterproductive if you actually do have something to say.

Health,
al-Aswad.



Considering your approval of cannabilism I would have thought that calling you Hannibal would be the highest of compliments.




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