RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive

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StrangerinBlack -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/28/2008 5:15:04 PM)
Red: This is my last response to you unless you start actually addressing what I'm talking about. "Do you see how this is backwards? " NO "You are the one using terms like psychotic, and yet you provide no credentials, no evidence that you actually know what the word means, and if she wants to say she's not, it's on her to prove it to you. " I never called any individual psychotic, I don't know anything about Alb, nor was I talking about her when I said that, I was responding to the news story................... "What does the word "psychotic" mean when used by a "shrink," Stranger? " psychosis (sī-kō'sĭs)A mental state caused by psychiatric or organic illness, characterized by a loss of contact with reality and an inability to think rationally. A psychotic person often behaves inappropriately and is incapable of normal social functioning. There are others, but they all seem to fit. Now, its your turn, go find me a source that claims cutting of your finger/hand/arm so your lover can eat it does not fall into the above description. Heck, I would love to see anyone do it, expert or not. Oh, and I would love to know how a dom that gets off having the person they love disable themselves is a good/healthy person too. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

wwwkevinww -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/28/2008 5:15:26 PM)
There are certain things that are healthy and certain things that aren't. Personally I think if someone is born with 6 fingers, its just as barbaric to cut off one of those fingers.....GOD intended that person to have 6 fingers... I think its a gift to be better well endowed, if someone has 4 usuable arms, isn't it a sin of society to want them to be normal and cut off two of them? Now if someone is born with the ability to self reproduce, like having both male and female parts, that is pretty cool, and "doctors" shouldn't try to make this person "normal". With regard to unsafe wanting self mutilization, it falls under the category of things you should fantasize about, but know better for yourself and not be talked into..... Hell, before you go cutting off your Body Parts, tattoo on your forehead "Kinky". Cause if someone asks you how you lost a finger and it seems for an instant you cut it off intentionally, you'll be in a rubber room probably for the rest of your life...... Some people need to be protected from their own destructive desires, impulses. Learn to do erotic compartimentilization, some things just are not healthy for you.... Um, future Amy.....with one less finger....yea, right......those shrooms are affecting your judgement....at one point in this thread you were joking about that, I don't find it humorous..... If you have never been tatt'ed, then unless your seriously out of it, you shouldn't be cutting off a finger except in an accident.... Some people have a death wish, and they die by their own stupidity. http://www.darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin2000-03.html If you have to die someday, try not to die stupidly..... If I die stupidly, and I'm not saying i won't die being stupid, at least know that I tried not to die stupidly. ;0

StrangerinBlack -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/28/2008 5:17:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wwwkevinww There are certain things that are healthy and certain things that aren't. Personally I think if someone is born with 6 fingers, its just as barbaric to cut off one of those fingers.....GOD intended that person to have 6 fingers... I think its a gift to be better well endowed, if someone has 4 usuable arms, isn't it a sin of society to want them to be normal and cut off two of them? Now if someone is born with the ability to self reproduce, like having both male and female parts, that is pretty cool, and "doctors" shouldn't try to make this person "normal". With regard to unsafe wanting self mutilization, it falls under the category of things you should fantasize about, but know better for yourself and not be talked into..... Hell, before you go cutting off your Body Parts, tattoo on your forehead "Kinky". Cause if someone asks you how you lost a finger and it seems for an instant you cut it off, you'll be in a rubber room probably for the rest of your life...... Some people need to be protected from their own destructive desires, impulses. Learn to do erotic compartimentilization, some things just are not healthy for you.... Um, future Amy.....with one less finger....yea, right......those shrooms are affecting your judgement....at one point in this thread you were joking about that, I don't find it humorous..... If you have never been tatt'ed, then unless your seriously out of it, you shouldn't be cutting off a finger except in an accident.... Some people have a death wish, and they die by their own stupidity. http://www.darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin2000-03.html If you have to die someday, try not to die stupidly..... If I die stupidly, and I'm not saying i won't die being stupid, at least know that I tried not to die stupidly. ;0 Don't take this the wrong way, but I think I may love you (joke). Well said.

wwwkevinww -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/28/2008 5:32:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: camille65 Dolcett yea, Dolcett sure did romanticize cannabalism, and I'm sure there are followers out there who are into it, ritualizing it and what not. Bottom-line = distance yourself, you can understand it, but do not indulge in any real ritualizations of this.... Erotic compartimentilization at its best, because this whole concept is a sickness........ And if you don't think these sickness have hit mainstream, you haven't watched Silence of the Lambs. Stranger asking for proof of sickness is like Stranger not seeing the world for what it is.....stop looking at the world thru rose-colored glasses..... People are sick, many people need help, and if sometimes its a good beating to make them see things right...so be it.... Hell, I remember one case where they were so worried about this dudes safety or their own, they ended up killing this felon because they "cared" so much.....holding him down, he refused to stop fighting, they held him down until he suffocated.....( a lot of bodies holding him down )

wwwkevinww -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/28/2008 5:35:50 PM)
[/quote] Don't take this the wrong way, but I think I may love you (joke). Well said. [/quote] Um, a man-crush, um, yea....okay....cut your hair dude. ;0

IrishMist -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/28/2008 5:39:24 PM)
quote: Don't take this the wrong way, but I think I may love you (joke). Well said. Um, a man-crush, um, yea....okay....cut your hair dude. ;0 [8\|] Has enouigh time gone by for me to snort out a laugh?

BitaTruble -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/28/2008 5:39:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhatUrSeeking I have often wrestled with this issue. This lifestyle brings me a lot of pleasure and good. I would not want it to cause permanent mental or physical harm to me or my submissive. In many ways this has been my new solution. Anything sexual is O.K. as long as it is between consenting adults and it does not cause permanent mental or physical harm. I would greatly appreciate any thoughts you have on this subject. ::partial repost from a thread on limits:: "...to be consumed, bite by bite, and ingested .. to become a part of the inner workings of Michael, to have 'me' run through his veins, nourishing his body.. just thinking about it gets me hot. So there you go, death, amputation, cannabalism all rolled into one, hot, incredible last scene. What a way to go! Much better than being hit by a bus." ~~~~~~ Are two consenting adults more or less insane for their practices than say those who practice a religion founded on transplanted aliens or one which believes the Earth itself is only about 6000 years old despite all the scientific evidence to the contrary? I have no idea whether or not the those involved in the OP have mental health issues or are mentally incompetent. They very well may be, but I certainly wouldn't assume such just because they wanted to experience their lives in a way that rocks their world. For some of us, there are things beyond the flesh which we feel compelled to explore. For others, there's not. I can just as easily cry mental health issues on someone who refuses to accept that their soul matters more than their flesh and to guard the flesh, which is going to die no matter what you do, rather than feed the soul (which lasts an eternity) in the manner that is most fitting for the individual seems a bit 'off' to me. So, there ya go. How often have you heard the expression .. "I'd give my right arm for _____ (fill in the blank)". Depending on what was used to fill that blank, it may or may not be 'okay' with the masses. I don't want to live my life according to what some random strangers believe is acceptable. MMV and probably will

WhatUrSeeking -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/28/2008 5:42:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross Define permanent harm? Does it matter what one's intentions are? For me the health/destruction comes in when you're talking about being fulfilled in who you are and more secure in yourself. I think the permanent harm issue is big. I suppose it does matter what ones intentions are at the time. In a vanilla relationship I had a friend tattoo his girlfriend's name on his arm, and they latter broke-up. I have also known people that have tattoo wedding bands and are now divorced. All of these people regret the decision and barring costly laser removal they are stuck with the decision. At the same time they all had good intentions at the time. Branding and scarification gets into this realm. If a girl is a cutter and I am a sadist. We might enjoy a scene where I cut her arm. She could then remember the scar forever. To some this is a very sexy scene. This certainly causes permanent harm to her physical body. It is not debilitating. It crosses a limit for me, but it could be argued if this is unhealthy behavior or not. If I brand a submissive as my property and intend that we will stay together forever the intent is good, but the decision is permanent. The only way it becomes harm is if we seperate. I still think there is something to Hugh Heffner's rule of not doing something where there is hatred in the heart. Even if this does not cause long term physical or psychological damage to the other person it can not be good for the person doing it at the time. If I whip a woman's ass bright red because out of hatred for an X or women in general then I am only encouraging those emotions in myself. My submissive may enjoy it a great deal, but that can't be good for my psyche or my future relationships. Of course now I could get into debating when are things hate instead of anger. Also it is not good for us to eat most fast food, but many people do it all the time.

Prinsexx -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/28/2008 5:49:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhatUrSeeking Anything sexual is O.K. as long as it is between consenting adults and it does not cause permanent mental or physical harm. I would greatly appreciate any thoughts you have on this subject. No I not agree. I think the case you stated (which your father was party to) relates to what is termed ‘adults in their particular geopolitical reality’ and is reminiscent of the points raised in relation to the questions and issues of the Armin Meiwes case. Basically on January 30, 2004, Meiwes was convicted only of manslaughter and sentenced to eight and a half years in prison. In April 2005, a German court ordered a retrial after prosecutors appealed his sentence. On 10 May 2006, a court in Frankfurt convicted Meiwes of murder and sentenced him to life imprisonment on the grounds that Meiwes continued to fantasise about eating human flesh and could maim and or kill in order to do so again. The original website titled "The Cannibal Cafe," in which Meiwes advertised his desire to slaughter & eat a voluntary victim, opened with a paragraph to "warn" viewers of the content inside. This content is described as "mature content designed for and by adults" and it is also stated that the website contains "discussions and images which may appeal to your most depraved base instincts & should not be viewed by those who are not considered adults in their particular geopolitical reality."What I am saying is that whilst I am certain that my own fantasies and desires would not cause harm to others I cannot )none of us can) be certain that the desires of any other might not/could not/would not under certain conditions cause harm to any other. This moves the whole concept of one to one or one to many consensuality out into a wider politicised arena but I for one would think it foolish to state categorically that my activities both private and especially rofessional exist in isolation and outside of there social and political context. No woman is an island entire and whole unto herself. Both privately and personally therefore my ethica are very clear: if I feel that a thirs party is at risk either because they fall outside of any one of the three ethics of sanity, consensuality or safetu then i retain the right to inform a third party that this is the case. The factor of safety was the basis upon which the Meiwes case was re-tried. Hope I have made sense.

RedMagic1 -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/28/2008 6:01:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerinBlack the desire to cut off pieces of your body (or to eat them) is an example of an extreme pathological psychosis that has nothing to do with BDSM in any meaningful sense. Exact quote. quote: I am not talking about fantasy or roleplay. Whatever turns you on inside your own head is A-OK. Another exact quote. Mutually contradictory statements -- you speak of "desire" at first, and that you aren't talking about fantasy in the second. Further, your terms seem strange. Is there a "non-extreme" pathological psychosis? Is there a "non-pathological" psychosis? Don't be surprised if people don't agree with you if your posts are not mutually consistent, and contain big words with hollow meanings.

kiwisub12 -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/28/2008 6:08:59 PM)
for me personally - caniballism, no matter how consentual, falls into a goup along with pediaphilials (sp?) Perhapes there are boundaries that society as established that shouldn't be pushed. Like having sex with a six year old, and eating your girlfriends arm. damn it - i am trying to be as liberal as i can, but i can't make consensual cannibalism even seem half way ok. It causes permanent damage -abet overtly physical, not mental, but given the societal norms i grew up with - and actually wouldn't want to change - this is wrong. chopping off one finger or toe to intensify a spiritual experience i can sort of understand - but eating said finger? Nope - can't get it.

onegoddess -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/28/2008 6:15:44 PM)
My answer is basically one word: Perspective. What we, in this society have identified as "healthy" and "unhealthy", are concepts we've created and measured ourselves against and lived by. But these are just essentially things that we've made up. We can say we have morals and ethics and so on and so forth, but at the end of the day those are still just flexible possibilities to each individual. For example, since a person can go from being a devout Christian, to hedonistic pagan, or a conservative Muslim woman into a transgendered atheist man.... clearly even the values we, as individuals, and a society, hold dear can be traded in, or simply fade away. Thus it is we have no actual demands on our behavior, emotions etc. We are simply bits of humanity floating along our way and telling ourselves entertaining stories to make sense of this all and thrive by creating boundaries. But those boundaries are really just smoke and we break them all the time. I really believe that any act can be "good" or "bad" depending on the circumstances around it. I understand that what is sane to one person is absurd to another. Its all about the perspective we choose to have at a given time. These morals change drastically, not generational, but even simply geographically at any moment on this planet. Somewhere this year one of the aboriginal cannibalistic clans will eat someone- and it will be not only sane to their culture, but reasonable, and even expected in some contexts. Somewhere this year someone will probably eat someone in some sadistic "lunacy". They'll have valid fear of consequence racing through their veins, which will probably make them even more thrilled about the whole thing. So, I guess the point it becomes unhealthy is really flexible and about what perspective you are viewing the whole thing from at all. My personal opinion is that its THEIR life. And THEIR business. It doesn't need to affect what I want to do in my own life in any way. And I don't see any need to put a stop to it. Our ideas of mental illness are just classified as illness from our society's perspective. They change over the course of time. Homosexuality used to be "mentally ill". Now many people cringe at that "backward" thinking. So do they fit into today's standard as mentally ill? Yes. Are they doing acts that are extremely outside of what is commonly accepted in the western world as "reasonable" Yes. Does it "matter"? Only if we think it does to us. For me personally, "unhealthy" is a grey area and I try to create limits and boundaries as seems fit. For me those are at the abuse, and oppression of other's. It doesn't matter their age or context. But even those values, I know ultimately, are subjective to me.

WhatUrSeeking -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/28/2008 6:21:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress ok so i guess ill share, even though i am scared too, because i dont really want to be judged....but i have done an amputation scene and it was incredibly intimate and amazing...i plan on doing more. i feel that i am the only one who can make these decisions about my own body, and if i want to live my life with out a bodypart and with a an amazing memory that is my choice. your millage may vary. is my fettish going to become dibilitating? i dont know, i dont think so, but it is important to note that according to my "peers" on this board, many folks already feel it has already become so....at the end of the day, all i have is my personal barameter, and the hope that it is not broken. I am not going to sit here and bash your decision to perform a ritualistic amputation ceremony. I was not their nor in your head when you made this decision. You say it will not be debilitating. Several people have mentioned the word debilitating as being where the line of permanent harm is located. I like exploring limits and I would like to use your amputation to continue exploring the limit of healthy behavior mentally and physically within the world of bondage, domination, sadism, and masochism. The line is a blurry grey line. Of course if it all black and white then this discussion would not be much fun now would it? In your latter post you mention that you conducted the amputation in a ritual and that part of the reason had to do with exploring the fact that your body is more than the flesh that houses your soul. This part seems more spiritual then having to do with BEDSM. Most of the rest of what you mentioned could fall under the BDSM category. You mention that you did this out of sacrifice and submission. I have never been a part of an amputation and I do not claim to truly know. I am merely trying to explore. The amputee is making a large sacrifice as a symbol of devotion. The missing body part can serve as a permanent reminder of that sacrifice. If done for the right person in the right way then this can be a frequent reminder of a great memory. For a Dom this act show true devotion, love, and sacrifice. It is not a big deal to find a sub willing to give you oral on command, but this one is so dedicated that she would go as far as cutting off a body part for you. This is my best stab at what the dynamic is that leads people to engage in acts of amputating undamaged body parts. The larger the sacrifice the larger the larger the effect will be, but the larger the sacrifice the more debilitating it can become to future life. If my partner and I were to cut ourselves lightly and put the blood in villes and then wear each others blood viles around our necks we would be making a small ritualistic sacrifice, and would have a reminder of that sacrifice that we could carry with us. Similarly if a submissive cut a chunk out of their flesh, but did not cut the bone, and the Dom ate this flesh or something, then the scar leaves a permanent reminder for the sub, and eating meat will be give a frequent reminder to the Dom. A chunk of flesh will not be debilitating. A finger tip will make typing hard. An entire foot will require a prosthetic. If they both believe the pros out way the cons then maybe it is O.K. or is it when it is debilitating that it becomes a problem. The mind is so rational it can rationalize even the irrational. In the example I gave previously the girl wanted to commit suicide and know that her body would be consumed by her lover. The girl probably hated her life and wanted to die. The Dom somehow saw this as the ultimate sacrifice given for him. She gets to die knowing she will serve someone in her final act and he gets to feel powerful and gets a freezer full of meat. Is assisted suicide so wrong. If a person is a vegetable or are so old that it hurts to function then surely Kerkorian can help with that. If someone dislikes there life so much that they can plan it for months and still go through with it then maybe it is not so bad. If they are going to die anyway then eating their body might actually be productive. The mind is so rational it can rationalize anything, even the irrational. Surely we can all agree that suicide is unhealthy and debilitating, but the fuzzy grey line was long before suicide.

DMFParadox -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/28/2008 6:30:53 PM)
When the purpose is lost to the method, that's when it is wrong. Most 'purpose' is illusionary, transitory value that we assign to the steps we take to approach our true goal, which is growth. If the act fails to help you and yours grow and prosper, then it is unhealthy.

crouchingtigress -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/28/2008 6:34:57 PM)
OK this is devolving as a conversation, and i don't have the strength to defend my ideas against folks that want to lock me up. but i will say that neither of you have been here very long, 240 posts between the both of you, so you have no way of knowing that i am stable, and actually a pretty deep thinker, and occasionally humorous to boot. and that is not to negate you in any way , i am just pointing it out because i have been here for a while, and i know that it is easy to make assumptions and live in absolutes, and then have your mind opened by a comment or and idea that you never thought of before....i would hope that you keep your mind open while you are hanging out here, because things are not always what they seem at first blush.

MasterHermes -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/28/2008 6:35:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross Define permanent harm? Does it matter what one's intentions are? For me the health/destruction comes in when you're talking about being fulfilled in who you are and more secure in yourself. Since we already started to climb the stairs, lets see where it goes. My question is, where are we going to draw a line , if we ever will. For example killing another person, if two people (or more) come together and one of them agree to die, is it ok to kill him as long as he is giving consent? Lets go one more step, I have got a cult and all my followers are ready to accept however I decide their fate. Since I already have their consent , can I do anything I want to them without ever being hold accountable for it? Lets take another step. Why consent is important? It is only a concept created by human too. If we can destroy other barriers, allow cannibalism, allow killing one other as long as there is consent , why not just destroy the concept of consent too? You will argue human rights and freedom etc but we are taking steps now, one doesnt have to stop anywhere unless all needs are fulfilled. So , the question: Where are we drawing the line and why are we drawing there? I suspect where ever you want to draw it , it still will be limited to your own believes and thoughts. There will be always somebody who is willing to take it one step further. Why stop with a finger, while we can feed these thoughts until we destroy human kind with a great pleasure. There can be no harm when there is love Hermes

DMFParadox -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/28/2008 6:43:35 PM)
::heart this:: quote: ORIGINAL: softness Well ... simplistic as this may seem ... when something unhealthy or destructive happens .. exactly what is unhealthy and destructive is defined by the particular context Me being brutally sodomised, humiliated and degraded - filled with fear, begging for it to stop and simply being laughed at ... in our context ... thats a pretty awesome saturday night .. and would leave both of us (him considerably sooner than me) feeling satisfied and contented. For the girl I sat next to at a munch today it would be hugely unhealthy and destructive .. and such a saturday night would leave her brutally traumatised and with a near permenant feeling of having been violated. as with most things ... its subject to context.

Aswad -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/28/2008 6:50:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WhatUrSeeking I would greatly appreciate any thoughts you have on this subject. If the two were sane, then the non-consensual act of stopping them is pretty clearly objectionable. If they were not sane, then it's a huge can of worms in most mainstream systems of morality, not the least of which would be the definition of sane. However, there are plenty of sane people out there who share their interest, so I would suggest laying down some sort of assumption about their sanity as the first constraint on the debate. Without more qualifiers/constraints, you're not really addressing your question. Outside a context, such a question is meaningless. Health, al-Aswad.

Aswad -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/28/2008 6:59:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DiurnalVampire The realm of SAFE, SANE and CONSENTUAL would have needed applied to your story. The RACK folks may not be aware that SSC "needs" to be applied to them. quote: Amputation was not safe, nor was it sane. Would you care then to provide some definition of safe and sane? That one has been troubling ethicians, philosophers and doctors for centuries. If you could just clear it up for us, preferably as briefly as possible, that would be nice. quote: Theres a question of it being legal, as well. Are you saying that everything we do needs to be legal? Because there's places out there where BDSM isn't. Is BDSM then somehow wrong in those places? quote: There are many people into scarification, amputation fetishes, things of that nature. And their safety and sanity is routinely question by various parties. In what way are you more authoritative than those who would question them? quote: Done safely and inteligently, they arent a major issue. Again two very vague qualifiers, and a conclusion that doesn't follow without qualifying "major issue." quote: This was way outside that realm. Perhaps. I take it you are in favor of people's right to die in a time, place and manner of their choosing being stripped from them, then? Because depending on how you set the premise, that may very well be the only logical conclusion that can follow from that line of reasoning, and giving someone authority over the lives of others is a starting point of a debate all of its own, and one whose conclusions may well negate any validity of BDSM under the same premises. Certainly I don't have a problem with someone judging this as they like. Your statements are not cast as opinions in your post, though. Health, al-Aswad.

Aswad -> RE: When does BDSM become unhealthy or destructive (6/28/2008 7:02:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress well i must be unhealthy and destructive then. sigh Aren't we all? No, wait... they redefined "sane" a while ago. Guess that means only sadists, masochists and fetishists are still insane. Obviously, it follows that only sadists, masochists and fetishists are unhealthy and destructive. [:D] Health, al-Aswad.

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