RE: Why or Why Not (Full Version)

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SirSix72 -> RE: Why or Why Not (11/8/2005 11:47:17 AM)

La,

you are wrong about this one....I manage a swingers club with BDSM rooms on premises.......noone is allowed to touch without permission! This rules applies to any lifestlye BDSM or not........although there are casula encounters but again these encounters are negoiated before hand much like BDSM...the only difference is the way of play....We spank they dont

Master Six



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Why or Why Not (11/8/2005 11:49:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SirSix72
how can you communicate about something you are unable to talk about trying

This post was difficult to parse because of your constant use of ellipses and lack of good strong sentences. But I wanted to point out the fallacy of this particular element.

I'm not willing to engage in cutting play or blood play with anyone I do not have a serious lifebond with. This is an emotional limit for me. I can still talk about it with anyone, I can still communicate it to anyone. But it's not something that will happen OR be tried with in anything but a serious context.

Just because you aren't going to try something doesn't mean you can't talk about it.

I think perhaps you meant to say "How can you open yourself to new things if you won't even entertain the idea or get to know a little about it?"



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Why or Why Not (11/8/2005 11:51:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirSix72
La,

you are wrong about this one....I manage a swingers club with BDSM rooms on premises.......noone is allowed to touch without permission! This rules applies to any lifestlye BDSM or not........although there are casula encounters but again these encounters are negoiated before hand much like BDSM...the only difference is the way of play....We spank they dont

Maybe you missed this part of my post:

That doesn't mean you don't "ask" and it certainly doesn't mean swingers never say no to being touched or having people come in the middle of things.



SirSix72 -> RE: Why or Why Not (11/8/2005 11:54:53 AM)

I didnt mean to come off as derisive to your reply about swingers...thats what I meant to say about opening yourself up to possibilities thank you LA.........I must admit I tend to hang out with them more because of their emotional stablity.......

Master Six



Kasia -> RE: Why or Why Not (11/8/2005 11:57:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

But there are differences, sometimes key ones. With swingers/bdsmers the largest seems to be the issue of touching/getting involved. For bdsm it is almost a cardinal sin to touch someone without permission, even casual touching, and horrific enter or be involved in a scene without express permission.

For swingers, casual and intimate touching is far more common and in fact often used in the place of the request to touch itself. Initial touching is a way to feel the people out. The rules on getting into a session that other swingers are involved in are also far more relaxed than in bds, requiring far less blatant requests and lower level of social comfort.

That doesn't mean you don't "ask" and it certianly doesn't mean swingers never say no to being touched or having people come in the middle of things. But the "social dance" is based on a different set of expectations and series of steps.

Given this, applying "that was rude and wrong" in a bdsm context is a very different thing than in a swinger context. It may just be an honest misunderstanding. Something that is rude to us might be considered favorable and encouraged to them.

Well, I dont know about swinger clubs there where you are, but here the touching without very clear permission is completely out of question. In fact, it is very no no.
When I get involved with someone, others are welcomed to watch but only at proper distance (usually about 1-2 m). Coming closer than that is considered bad manners. The person in question may ask if they can get into the "play" but only before it starts. That is what the social rooms are for, you drink and talk and negotiate with whom you are going to be.
But once you start, no chances someone else can do anything but watch. None is coming "in the middle of things" or he would be very promptly asked to leave the club at once.

There are exceptions sometimes, some couples can include other couples in the middle of play but never without plainly asked permission. It usually goes for couples, singles are almost never welcomed once things heaten up.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Why or Why Not (11/8/2005 11:57:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SirSix72
the only difference is the way of play....We spank they dont

Then is there a reason that the owner of the swingers club has asked your slave not to wear a certain type of collar?



darkinshadows -> RE: Why or Why Not (11/8/2005 11:59:31 AM)

quote:

I agree with what you said as well darkangel about the facilitator based on the fact of no service...but if there is service then the laws are laid so to speak then the Dominant becomes the facilitator in the relationship....


If there is pre agreed service, then the facilitator is the person whom is the dominant in that relationship. If the s-type then refuses, then the onus is on the dominant. Its their responsibility to find out why the s is refusing. If the s-type refuses communication, then the dominant (in an ideal world) decide what is more important to them. The control and being true to themself or just being with the stype they have chosen. It doesnt come down to brattishness or topping from below, its the dominants responsibility to decide on the course of action for them. It is very much a choice of whether you accept an I-it or I-thou situation as is being discussed elsewhere on the forum.
But one has to remember that BDSM clubs and group meetings run very differently to swinger clubs which in turn run differently to Gorean meets... they are like Judism, Christianity and Muslim - they all worship the same God, just approaching from different roads...

Peace and Rapture



Kasia -> RE: Why or Why Not (11/8/2005 12:06:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SirSix72

the only difference is the way of play....We spank they dont

I see plenty of spanking in swinger clubs. The one we really like the most actually has a dungeon for bdsm parties and the room is used frequently. And couple of regular visitors are very visibly collared.
Since that is very private and small club, the dungeon is opened to all, the others keep such rooms locked for "ordinary" guests. One can hear the sounds though.......



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Why or Why Not (11/8/2005 12:07:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kasia
But once you start, no chances someone else can do anything but watch. None is coming "in the middle of things" or he would be very promptly asked to leave the club at once.

Maybe it's a cultural difference. My exposure to swingers clubs/parties is all east coast America.



Kasia -> RE: Why or Why Not (11/8/2005 12:09:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
Maybe it's a cultural difference. My exposure to swingers clubs/parties is all east coast America.

Could be. I am only familiar with those in Germany, Austria and few in Holland.



Belladonna82 -> RE: Why or Why Not (11/8/2005 12:11:26 PM)

:) Well since that comment came from me....i will answer that...
The club which Master Manages is a very high class place....There is a dress code for all members...and i am not any diffrent...on Fetish night it doesnt matter what kind of collar since ALL are in fetish wear.On a normal night Master wears a suit and i must dress in a knee length dress or skirt...the collar must match my outfit....You wouldnt walk into a 5 star restaunt in jeans and a large collar would you? The members dress code is slacks and dress shirt...the women when not performing must wear dress clothing...the only day this changes is on Fetish night.....
Dress to impress...

bella



darkinshadows -> RE: Why or Why Not (11/8/2005 12:21:44 PM)

Ok... now see I am confused.

If I had to attend a function that would refuse me to wear my collar, I would not attend. I can see that your Master works, and that could be difficult, but I know that Demon would rather find another position than have me give into others protocols when it means I have to be less of what and who I am?

A collar, like the ring on my finger are sacred and beautiful expressions of my obedience to Demon. For Him to be told I should not wear them or that they are not appropriate would be total disrespect.

I would not wear something that is not me and all that is me, is His.

Peace and Love



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Why or Why Not (11/8/2005 12:26:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel
but I know that Demon would rather find another position than have me give into others protocols when it means I have to be less of what and who I am?

I find a middle ground here. After all, a collar is just a physical symbol, not the relationship itself. If perhaps they were asking to either remove a tattoo or not attend, it would be a different story for me. Also, with Bella and Six being in positions of authority at the club, they can and do set an example for the others.

I wouldn't consider this issue over a collar worth losing a great job over, but I wouldn't necessarily just roll over either.

Bella asked if I'd go to a fancy place for dinner wearing jeans and a leather collar...No. But I would go wearing a leather collar, especially if it was what the owner expected of me.



Synocense -> RE: Why or Why Not (11/8/2005 12:37:38 PM)

quote:

and in real life at the club there have been a few but after one too many alot of us can become a bit intrusive wouldnt you agree?


Just one of the reasons I agree with a sobriety rule in public clubs.
We also do orientations, before someone can join, a simple set of rules that need to be followed for no other reason than to keep members safe.



darkinshadows -> RE: Why or Why Not (11/8/2005 12:43:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross


quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel
but I know that Demon would rather find another position than have me give into others protocols when it means I have to be less of what and who I am?

I find a middle ground here. After all, a collar is just a physical symbol, not the relationship itself. If perhaps they were asking to either remove a tattoo or not attend, it would be a different story for me. Also, with Bella and Six being in positions of authority at the club, they can and do set an example for the others.

I wouldn't consider this issue over a collar worth losing a great job over, but I wouldn't necessarily just roll over either.

Bella asked if I'd go to a fancy place for dinner wearing jeans and a leather collar...No. But I would go wearing a leather collar, especially if it was what the owner expected of me.



Yes a collar is a symbol - doesnt make me less submissive not to wear it. But the question is why such a symbol is so abhorant to a club or meeting place. I have dined at some of the most luxurious, exclusive and high ettiquette places in London and have not been turned away because of wearing a collar? It is a symbol and although it makes me no less a person, its His symbol. Like a cross or a star of david... lsome collars are locked and unopenable(apart from being sawn away) so would be similar to a tattoo in that respect. Its an identity.

But what bothers me is the loss of 'self'. Like you say, you wouldn't roll over. Demon would not either. He would question why, and even refuse to attend. His belief is very strong in what and who He is. Would He risk losing His job - His life for something He believed in? Without doubt. His respect for Himself is much stronger than losing His realisation of self. This is why I admire - and love - Him above all others.

Peace and Love



WitchFaery -> RE: Why or Why Not (11/8/2005 1:38:39 PM)

I've always been curious, I'm not sure how I would react but I think it would be a unique, interesting and msot likely very fun experience.



SirSix72 -> RE: Why or Why Not (11/8/2005 2:10:35 PM)

Thats the way we feel about it LA she has a collar tattoed on her ankle with a dog tag on it stating property of Thomas..my given name......so the way I look at it is that she is always wearing one.......but to wear or not to wear a collar is another thread........and I have a tattoo of a heart with a key hanging on it with her name in the heart.....so there are other ways to show ownership...
and kasia we also have a dungeon room as well and there is plenty of spanking in there and most of the time im there giving pointers to those interested....I hope to hold a BDSM party there in the next couple of months.........the dress code is a little lax for those whom want to dress in fetish wear I turn no-one away unless they are pretty shifty looking.....some single men I dont let in I can usually spot the trouble makers within the first five minutes but I give all a chance to explore and play as long as they behave.......

Master Six



DemonAngel -> RE: Why or Why Not (11/8/2005 2:36:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Belladonna82

:) Well since that comment came from me....i will answer that...
The club which Master Manages is a very high class place....There is a dress code for all members...and i am not any diffrent...on Fetish night it doesnt matter what kind of collar since ALL are in fetish wear.On a normal night Master wears a suit and i must dress in a knee length dress or skirt...the collar must match my outfit....You wouldnt walk into a 5 star restaunt in jeans and a large collar would you? The members dress code is slacks and dress shirt...the women when not performing must wear dress clothing...the only day this changes is on Fetish night.....
Dress to impress...

bella


Then this club your master manages isnt a BDSM club,it is a swingers club or is it a club that has occasional fetish evenings?I hope you feel able to clear up exactly what this club is.
Either way,it sounds as though it does not fully comprehend the terms of engagement of a BDSM establishment?Dress codes are a way and means of excluding certain peoples,either those who don't have,can't afford or don't want to conform and dress in a certain way.If the collar is part of who you are and something you are not prepared to forgo,then the dress code is ment to exclude you.So be it.It speaks to a certain mindset,which is not your own and therefore means you(generic)wouldn't be comfortable there.Far better to be yourself,then to try and pretend you are something you are not.The former,leads to peace and happiness.The latter to discomfort and inadequacy.
You could say that we all have to conform within our jobs.There are certain expectations written into our contracts and examples such as employees being sacked for refusing to remove body jewellery.I do not believe that employers should have that level of control and I have even resigned from the best job I ever had because of the treatment of a collegue.That is my own standard,my own principles and that would not suit many.That which I believe in is who I am and not what others would make me.
One question is,where do your masters principles lie?How far is he willing to conform and what is the line you won't cross?Does he stand by his belief,or simply follow others wishes because its easier and safer?

quote:


Bella asked if I'd go to a fancy place for dinner wearing jeans and a leather collar...No. But I would go wearing a leather collar, especially if it was what the owner expected of me.


I wouldn't attend a full on BDSM Club wearing leathers and PVC either,it wouldn't be me.I would go as myself and have never heard of someone being turned away because they were not in 'fetish clothing'.

Dress to impress?All that is to see is me.Dressing does not make the impression last,the behaviour does.

Hey,theres colour.Now thats most excellent.
quote:

'Passion is contained within us.It waits, It stirs,undemanded.It Whispers.ItShouts.ItGuides.Passion reigns over us all and we obey.It is the essence of our finest moments.The rapture of Love, the clarity of Malignity, the paroxysm of Grief...Without passion,we may have peace but inturn we would be hollow - vacant and void.'



candystripper -> RE: Why or Why Not (11/8/2005 2:45:18 PM)

quote:

I am sure your club has rules laid out and penalties for breaking them. At the Black and Blue Ball we have the rules handed out in the program, posted in various spots and on our website. There is security in place to enforce them. Dungeon Masters/Mistresses in the dungeon to make sure the rules and the laws are followed.

Tony


My understanding is, there is a niteclub here called Metropolis which has fetish events -- not sure what that entails; whether they have any "dungeon" style rooms, etc. i have not yet been.

However, in public in such a place i'd be a bit frightened and probably hang near the security guards. i would certainly not play with anyone and i would not address anyone by honorifics apart from "Sir" and "Ma'am".

i would not agree to have regular attendance at such a place be a part of my D/s life; i want a very intimate, faithful, intense relationship. i have heard You, Sir Six, speak before as if public play, amoung other things i cannot do, as essential/beneficial to a D/s or M/s relationship.

You do not seem to hear me when i post -- i am not speaking for anyone apart from myself -- but i sometimes feel You do not hear me.

candystripper



DemonAngel -> RE: Why or Why Not (11/8/2005 2:55:33 PM)

Clubs and groups are helpful,but not a prerequisite to a personal BDSM relationship.You will find they help,and its all part of the learning experience.If your in a non BDSM relationship,you go out and socialise as a couple.BDSM relationships are no different.You can find a new toy,talk to people and at some groups,participate if thats your boat.Some are just like clubs,some are like going to the theatre.Above everything,its social.But dont discount going.Its good to keep an open mind on all things,especially as its the dominants decision if you go or not once your in a commited coupling.

quote:

'Passion is contained within us.It waits, It stirs,undemanded.It Whispers.ItShouts.ItGuides.Passion reigns over us all and we obey.It is the essence of our finest moments.The rapture of Love, the clarity of Malignity, the paroxysm of Grief...Without passion,we may have peace but inturn we would be hollow - vacant and void.'



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