When to give it up

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anotherwouldbe -> When to give it up (6/29/2008 8:19:07 AM)
I've done a bit of searching through the archives and didn't find any that covered this question. Sorry if it's been covered before but there is a lot to go through. And while this would appear to be my first post, I'd rather not use my real name for reasons which will become obvious. My situation is that while I've been a master/top all of my life, I'm seriously considering giving it up. I've been active in the bd/ds/sm community for most of my adult life and that's over 20 years now, so I've been around. I've hosted parties, discussions and demos in my home which have been attended by enough people to number in the hundreds. I've also attended so many, both private and large public events. So over the years I've been in contact with hundreds of people, including topping I don't know how many. All of the feedback or comments I've ever recieved has always been positive. To this day, I still have people telling me I am the most experienced and knowledgeable master they know and I've never had a slave say they were disappointed or hated playing with me. All except one. My slave of over 8 years. It's impossible to write down all of the things which have occured in the past 8 years that have led me to where I am now. That could pretty much fill a book. And while each individual event might make an interesting post or topic, by themsleves they would probably seem a trivial reason to end a relationship and totally give up this lifestyle, but that's what it's come to. In the beginning it was a great relationship. But as the years went on, she was able to find my weaknesses and exploit them, over and over again until it has completely destroyed my confidence. But with the way she does it, she's always able to find the one way that makes me believe it really is my fault. Like with the idea that masters are supposed to always be confident and if you doubt yourself, then you're not a true master. Or when I do things that are fair game in other master/slave relationships and I've done to other slaves in the past, she does everything she can to get me to believe that a real master doesn't push slaves to where they are truly pissed off about what's going on and that I should be paying more attention to her needs and desires. Of course she will also say that since a master is the one in charge of the scene, they are to do whatever they want no matter what the slave says. (and if you're about to say that's a sign that she does want to be pushed, she just doesn't want to admit it, trust me, that's not it) She can go from saying that a master is supposed to be like the CEO of a company and not concern himself over the minor details of running the household, just making sure that the overall picture is seen or goal is reached, to saying that unless you give her every little detail of what to do, when to do it and in what order to do everything, then you can't hold her responsible when something doesn't get done. At this point she will even use the reason of not respecting me as a master as to why she's not motivated to get everything done and, again, if I was simply a better master, everything would be fine. And at this point, if anyone is saying that she's not a slave and I should dismiss her, her responses would be 1. If after 8 years you don't know that I'm a true slave then that just shows how little you know about me or understand this lifestyle and you're no master, and 2. Fine, I'll go. But that just shows you don't know what you're doing. As soon as you can't handle something you bail. A real master doesn't give up. So for 8 years now I've tried to stick it out and do everything I can to make it work but it continues to get worse. I'm to the point that, while I can still do wonderful scenes with others, I can't take a single stroke at her without thinking of every time she turned around and critisized every aspect of my technique. With her I'm so unsure it's as if I've never held the toy in my hand before. Again, I can't go over even a fraction of the things that have happened, so I guess it's not a single issue that can be solved. I don't believe there's a punishment or technique I can employ that will suddenly get her to obey. And I'm not sure that even given time I can salvage this relationship. I guess I feel I'm at a crossroads and I'm not sure what to do next. Because of my life with her, I've become thoroughly disillusioned with this lifestyle. I've seen many other masters and slaves in similar circumstances and sometimes feel that maybe all of this is just a game of pretend. Even with the knowledgeable statements and posts people make, I have to wonder if any of it can be put in to practice for more than just a scene or a limited time before they revert back to something more of a normal couple who just occasionally does something kinky. I'm not sure what to do at this point. While I enjoyed the last time I played with someone else, I did enjoy it and felt I knew I was doing, I'm not sure I want to bother with it anymore. I've always loved the lifestyle and have had fantasies of it ever since I was little, but I almost feel that there have been enough negative experiences that I will always be reminded of something bad. I'm also not sure anymore of what to think of someone who claims to be a slave and wants to serve and please me. I can't help but think that given a little time I will be going through the exact same thing again. I guess the question is, what do I do next? I'm not sure if it's her or if maybe I really am a failure at being a master. Is my own self-doubt enough to say I'm not really a master? Is my inability to control someone who claims her lifelong dream is to be a slave mean I'm a failure? Are my thoughts of giving this whole thing up a sign that I'm weak and not up to the challenge of the responsibility of a slave? Should I stick it out even though I'm pretty sure I probably won't be able to make this thing work? Should I just accept the fact that maybe I am a failure at this and move on? I'm not sure I want to go on to another relationship. After a bad first marriage, I was actually taking a risk in this one. I'm not exactly old but I do feel I'm old enough that I could easily spend the rest of my life on my own. I just know I can't continue with the life I'm leading now.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: When to give it up (6/29/2008 8:25:51 AM)
How about trying the tactic of not blaming either of you (and this will have to include rejecting her blaming of you) and just figuring out exactly where you aren't working well TOGETHER and working on that. Or just say you aren't fulfilling to eachother and end it so that you can both seek your bliss? I can't tell you that it's been enough, does the idea of being with this person for five more years sound more fulfilling than the idea of NOT being with them, in a truly deeply fulfilling sense? You both have the responsibility to make this work and you are both responsible if it does not- but blame never really does much for anyone. Instead figure out why you've taken eight years to get to this point rather than making some real changes before, and whether it's worth making those changes now.

Huntertn -> RE: When to give it up (6/29/2008 8:29:11 AM)
What did the Sackett brother say to the other over a really bad wife...You were always a good Bronk rider...why not bail out..One one is keeping you in the saddle except yourself. Doesn't mean you can ride again later"...

DarkSteven -> RE: When to give it up (6/29/2008 8:38:03 AM)
Let me boil down your post for you. 1. I have a long track record as a Master. I have done everything a Master should do, and everyone looks up to me as one. 2. My slave of eight years criticizes me and has filled me with self-doubt. 3. Am I really a Master? Answer: if it's not working with a slave of eight years, break it off. Give yourself a month or so to let your feelings sort themselves out. Then ask YOURSELF if you're a Master. Not your dozens of admirers, nor your negative slave. And the question for YOU is that someone with your capabilitie should have dozens of potential partners slavering at your feet. Why did you stay in a relationship for eight years if it was a bad one? That sounds more like an abused partner than a Master.

crouchingtigress -> RE: When to give it up (6/29/2008 8:56:42 AM)
what i am hearing is that you see her as the enimy, you see her motives as covert you see her as decietful....would you be willing to look at the idea that when you look at some one through that lens, that is all you can see?

RexLongBeach -> RE: When to give it up (6/29/2008 9:00:50 AM)
I don't think giving it (D/s, BDSM, whatever) up is the answer. It's in your blood. You're frustrated at the moment so it seems better than continuing. Some folks will suggest you "communicate" with your submissive, and if you're going to continue with her, that's obviously part of the solution. But, I wouldn't start there. Fact is, communicating with her is what's gotten your head to where it is right now. Your post lists some ways your submissive is using manipulative techniques to put you in a box from which there is no escape. If you accept her premises, you have to accept her conclusions. Take some time to re-center yourself. Get back in touch with those Dom roots. Find the fun in Dominance. Figure out what needs to happen for your relationship to work. It's been eight years; if she won't give you some time and space to figure all this out then that tells you all you need to know. You didn't lose your household leadership and charisma overnight; it was chipped away bit by bit. Don't expect it to return overnight. Don't expect it to return at all unless you can shift the paradigm of your relationship to a healthier space. When you're ready, talk to her about the direction of your relationship. Where do you want your relationship to go? What sorts of lives do you wish to lead together? Where is your commitment to each other coming from? Make sure you're both fully bought in to the process. You're wasting your time if you're not. At some point, you'll resolve how you're going to move forward. End it or change it, but don't let the relationship destroy who you are. If you decide to end the relationship, don't think of it as "giving it up." If you've thought everything through and processed your feelings, you're freeing each other up to move on. You'll both be happier and healthier for it. Good luck, Rex

crouchingtigress -> RE: When to give it up (6/29/2008 9:05:56 AM)
my response when i read this was she sounds hurt and like she has not been heard....maybe as the dom, and as her friend, start there?

daddysliloneds -> RE: When to give it up (6/29/2008 9:51:29 AM)
if you want to give it up and walk away, then do it... if you're doing it because someone else made you feel like you should, then stop being emotionally reactive, get off the guilt-trip bandwagon, stop buying into the blame game and 'walk like a man, talk like a man, walk like a man my son...' and remember that our value/self-esteem, etc., isn't always going to be in how others perceive us, but in how we perceive ourselves.

Missokyst -> RE: When to give it up (6/29/2008 10:05:52 AM)
Generally I tell people that relationships take work. And keeping together is a difficult task that needs co-operation from both people to continue. Usually I believe that life should not be instant coffee. Couples should brew together so that it becomes a rich rewarding life. Usually.. But, it sounds like you both have let it get bitter. She knows you enough to know where to hit. You have allowed it to spill over the top. Is there anything salvageble? Can you really see living this way for years? Do you see any chance of both of you changing in the same direction? I do believe in work. But work is consistant. It is constantly evolving and building upon itself. But I never understood why anyone sticks with something which has gone horribly awry. There is a time to bail and find what ever happiness lies ahead. Should you throw in the bdsm towel? Only you can answer that. I think that is why I never want to associate myself as being this way or that. I am a person. In a relationship I am still a person. The role is not important, the dynamic of how we act together is. When you confine someone to a role whether that is dom, sub, master or slave, then you are limiting how you are seen. And that leads to looking for vulnerabilities. my two cents. Kyst

batshalom -> RE: When to give it up (6/29/2008 10:27:35 AM)
~fast reply~ From your pov, it sounds like she's extremely passive aggressive which irritates the daylights out of me when I have to deal with it, but it's impossible to give much advice without hearing her side of the story.

Level -> RE: When to give it up (6/29/2008 10:33:21 AM)
OP, why in the fuck would you want to keep someone in your life that drags you down? This is assuming that your hunch is correct, that she is an undermining shrew....

donnaamarie -> RE: When to give it up (6/29/2008 11:59:15 AM)
Hello, I agree with batshalom that she appears to be incredibly passive aggressive. My next thought was that beyond the M/s relationship, is this the kind of dynamic you want in your life? Maybe you need to even remove the M/s part of it and determine whether this is someone that even fits into your life. All long term relationships go through a bit of stangation where you need to reevaluate and get back in touch with it all again. I like to say that life gets in the way of the best laid plans. M/s or D/s relationships are no different. My Master and I have just gone through this type of reevaluation after letting things get a little too common for us. In a similar situation I would simply ask myself "do I see myself doing this for the rest of my life, or at the very least for the forseeable future?" It always does it for me. good luck!!! donna

Shadow-tiger -> RE: When to give it up (6/29/2008 1:56:42 PM)
Step back for a while and get some time to think on your own. It can be difficult to see things objectively right away, but it sounds like you need another perspective. I don't think the M/s dynamic is necessarily at fault here, just making it more difficult to see the real problem. Take some time for yourself, you sound like you need to get your head together. Heck you sound like I felt a couple months ago in a way. And remember that feeling old is just how we see ourselves. When you let that feeling take control of your life is when it becomes true.

DesFIP -> RE: When to give it up (6/29/2008 2:21:36 PM)
If you two still care about each other as more than master and slave, then couple therapy. If all there ever was between you was this, then time to part ways. It's obvious that she's lost faith in you. Somehow I don't think it's because you swung a flogger wrong. In some way you hurt her very badly and possibly because of your protocols and possibly because of fear of revenge if she speaks freely, the only way she feels safe enough to let you know how unhappy she is is by criticizing your technique. Drop all the d/s and begin to communicate. Which means you shutting up while she throws everything up to you. Not defending yourself in your head or preparing counter arguments or telling her she isn't speaking with sufficient respect. Just listen to what she says and listen for how hurt she is. Do you care that she's hurt or do you just wish it would end? Because your response tells you if it's worth going on. There's a lot of miscommunication or deliberate ignoring that brought you to this point. If you both still care, then start from the beginning. Communicate honestly and openly. If you can do that, then you can negotiate scening. And so on. But she has to decide if you've hurt her too badly for her to ever trust you again. And you have to accept whatever she says and learn for next time.

IronBear -> RE: When to give it up (6/29/2008 4:22:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven Let me boil down your post for you. 1. I have a long track record as a Master. I have done everything a Master should do, and everyone looks up to me as one. 2. My slave of eight years criticizes me and has filled me with self-doubt. 3. Am I really a Master? Answer: if it's not working with a slave of eight years, break it off. Give yourself a month or so to let your feelings sort themselves out. Then ask YOURSELF if you're a Master. Not your dozens of admirers, nor your negative slave. And the question for YOU is that someone with your capabilitie should have dozens of potential partners slavering at your feet. Why did you stay in a relationship for eight years if it was a bad one? That sounds more like an abused partner than a Master. I couldn't have put it better. Take a break and give yourself time for you alone. There are times many of us need a break. I'd no sooner wade in and find a new girl straight after I let the old one go than I would get seperation pending a divorce and start looking for a replacement. The mind, body and soul needs some rest to recover... In direct reply to your question though, there is a saying in the mining areas and especially in our gold mining crews: "When it stops being fun, go on a bender (getting seriously pissed) for a week then find another sand box to play in.... Iron Bear (Incorrigible, irrepressible and irreverent) Master of Bruin Cottage (A Victorian Lifestyle poly home) The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it. Omar Khayyam 1048 CE to 1123 CE (Persian Mathematician, Scientist, Astronomer, Philosopher & Poet).

viola12 -> RE: When to give it up (6/29/2008 4:33:36 PM)
Okay, I'm going to take a different side in this, kind of. You seem to me to be saying that she basically flip flops between one thing and another. I hope that is right, but if you look at it from her point of view, why are her opinions changing. She's probably really confused herself, she feels one way sometimes and another way another time. I myself have been there never to the extent that it seems she is but it's hard to sort out reality from fantasy. One would think that after eight years she'd have that down but maybe somethings going on within her. She may think that ideally a dom should be like a CEO but for her in actual practice that doesn't work. So my advice is to get to the bottom of why she feels the way she does and acts the way she does, if that is at all possible. Other than that do some soul searching and if it comes to it then maybe tell yourself you're going to take some time off, a month, six months a year, and then reevaluate, everything if necessary her your position as a dominant. Hopefully you'll be clearer then, but if it's true that you've always been this way then chances are it's in your blood and you won't be happy giving it up. Good luck to both of you and I hope it works out whatever happens.

MasterHermes -> RE: When to give it up (6/29/2008 5:17:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: anotherwouldbe I guess the question is, what do I do next? I'm not sure if it's her or if maybe I really am a failure at being a master. Gaining your confidence back and changing your attitude will help. Do not let anybody use the word "master" as a weapon against you. Step down , throw the title away, be the man you are. The man who was able to do what he wants to do before started to carrying this title. Do not become the slave to a title. You are more than a BDSM definition. If anybody asks I say : "I am not a Master, I am Hermes , by this I can do better things than a title can allow me. " Say it, hear it, understand it, know it. Then, once you remember the man you are , the man who is now crushed under a title which was nothing but a symbol for him at the beginning, take a deep breath. Go do something you enjoy by yourself, do and enjoy it alone. Then you can decide if you want to stay with her or leave her , if you want this or that kind of relationships in the future. You will make the right decision Hermes

MasterFireMaam -> RE: When to give it up (6/29/2008 9:53:40 PM)
It's not her job, or any other person's job, to make you feel good...or bad...about yourself. That's your job. By giving away your personal power because you want her approval, you've done a pretty good job of making you feel bad about yourself. Not matter if you take her out of the pitcure or not, you'll have to work on gaining that personal power back. Also, understand that she's most likely undermining you because she's undermining herself. What we hate..or love...in others, we hate or love in ourselves, only we don't see it there. Master Fire

candystripper -> RE: When to give it up (6/30/2008 12:18:36 AM)
quote: I guess the question is, what do I do next? I'm not sure if it's her or if maybe I really am a failure at being a master. Is my own self-doubt enough to say I'm not really a master? Is my inability to control someone who claims her lifelong dream is to be a slave mean I'm a failure? Are my thoughts of giving this whole thing up a sign that I'm weak and not up to the challenge of the responsibility of a slave? Should I stick it out even though I'm pretty sure I probably won't be able to make this thing work? Should I just accept the fact that maybe I am a failure at this and move on? I'm not sure I want to go on to another relationship. After a bad first marriage, I was actually taking a risk in this one. I'm not exactly old but I do feel I'm old enough that I could easily spend the rest of my life on my own. I just know I can't continue with the life I'm leading now. anotherwouldbe You sound as if you're in the death throws of the end of a relationship that has been destructive for a long time. She sounds like a passive-aggressive type who may hate men; I don't know. I'd lay odds she hates you, and feeds off your pain. I urge you to end the relationship as quickly and completely as possible. This is the most painful it will ever be, and it's been painful for a very long time. Spend the money to move house if you need to, but untangle yourself from her. It will take time to process what has happened. Possibly she's not merely passive-aggresive; possibly she's actually abusive. It is not your fault for getting involved with her; it matters not how long you remained with her. All you have is today and tomorrow. Just get out and focus on taking care of yourself. I think it's a flaw in your thinking to describe this woman as a 'slave' or your relationship with her a 'M/s dynamic'. It was a bad, possibly abusive relationship. IMO, any form of abuse precludes the possibility of a D/s dynamic -- so I'd say you've been sidetracked away from D/s for the entire time you've been involved with her. Leaving D/s behind won't prevent you from ever meeting another such woman -- they are certainly present aong 'vanilla' people too. Try and learn 'why didn't I recognise her for what she was sooner' and once you've identified that, forget her as best you can. Don't dwell on the past once you've processed this. Since I don't think you've been in a M/s dynamic, it makes little sense to me to stop seeking a healthy M/s relationship again, when you're ready. It can be very tempting to say 'fk it, I'll live alone all my life' and it is a legitimate choice. It offers certanty and peace and many single people have very fulfilling lives. But if part of you still seeks the joy of a healthy M/s relationship, don't allow this woman to steal it from you. If you have wishes and yearnings and want to act on them, don't allow fear of meeting another abuser to hold you back. I wish you well. candystripper**

Leatherist -> RE: When to give it up (6/30/2008 12:29:38 AM)
She's manipulating you into controlling her her way. And you are correct, that makes you a not master. It makes you the slave of a slave if you allow that shit to keep happening. Take heart in this being a common occurance however. But you can regain control by simply making a command decision, NOW. "These are the new rules-and I will expect you to follow them. I will run you through how to do tasks in general. You will be expected to take enough initiative on your own to complete them satisfactorily. If you do not-there will be negative consequences. I will not accept niggling over the details of how the tasks are done as an excuses that they not be done. We are done with this buck-passing, and I will expect positive and consistent results-or you will suffer." If this is unsatisfatory to you-you may hand the collar back-and I will find someone else who can perform in the way that I see proper.

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