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RE: General Wesley Clark takes a swipe at McCain - 6/30/2008 5:21:35 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Wesley Clark is a joke. He's lucky he didnt turn the Kosovo war into a world war when he nearly ordered the bombing of a Serbian airport that was occupied by Russian troops. Thank god a British general talked some sense into him.
I wondered how long it would be before you or CelticLord would post the distorted right-wing talking points about what actually happened.

"To be completely accurate: Clark wanted armoured vehicles used to block a runway the Russians were about to land on. This could easily have escalated into a lethal game of chicken, and would at least have destroyed the chances of Russian cooperation and support for a peace keeping deal that they had brokered.

Clark didn't have more than the right to make requests of Jackson. In this case as those requests ran a realistic possibility of violence involving British and Russian troops, Jackson would have need approval from the UK. An American commander in the same circumstances would have needed to contact Washington; if Clark had given those instructions to US troops under his command - at which point they would have been orders - he would probably have been guilty of a courtmartial offense. It was a very serious loss of judgement, and having vague approval from the UN Sec Gen to do something to stop the Russians getting to the airport first doesn't alter that - the SG neither had the authority to authorize such actions nor appropriate knowledge of the asinine thing Clark wanted done."

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(in reply to cyberdude611)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: General Wesley Clark takes a swipe at McCain - 6/30/2008 5:49:20 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

When he ran for VP he rather famously refused to campaign on the Sabbath


That's hilarious, because he went into the Senate and cast votes on the Sabbath.

If Lieberman is lying about his own observance, when *won't* he lie about? Zero Credibility.






And which of the 39 melachot (activities prohibited on the Shabbat) does that fall under?

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: General Wesley Clark takes a swipe at McCain - 6/30/2008 5:50:48 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

"impeached for perjury"

Righhhhht...... for perjury......


The articles of impeachment voted against Bill Clinton were for perjury and obstruction of justice.  To argue otherwise is to ignore the Congressional record.



How is Clinton's perjury different' from Bush's clear violation of 18 USC 1001, in that Bush asserted today that the US was at war, when Only Congress may declare war, and Congress has NOT declared war?

Clinton's perjury was LESS IMPORTANT than Bush's violation of 18 USC 1001 JUST TODAY!



< Message edited by farglebargle -- 6/30/2008 5:51:14 PM >

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(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: General Wesley Clark takes a swipe at McCain - 6/30/2008 5:59:03 PM   
thornhappy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

When he ran for VP he rather famously refused to campaign on the Sabbath


That's hilarious, because he went into the Senate and cast votes on the Sabbath.

If Lieberman is lying about his own observance, when *won't* he lie about? Zero Credibility.






And which of the 39 melachot (activities prohibited on the Shabbat) does that fall under?

Performing work; which would include "performing activities you do to earn a living", in addition to the traditional ones referenced in the Talmud.

thornhappy

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: General Wesley Clark takes a swipe at McCain - 6/30/2008 6:19:26 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		Would this prevent a shepherd from protecting his flock from a wolf on the sabbath?  How about a doctor treating a stabbing victim?  A roofer from fixing his leaking roof? 

Just some food for thought.

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: General Wesley Clark takes a swipe at McCain - 6/30/2008 6:24:06 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		Just out of curiousity, isn't this the same Wes Clark that commented just a few months ago about how Hillary was qualified to be Commander in Chief because of her time as first lady, and also commented on how Sen. Obama had nothing in his past that qualified him for the position?

Or am I thinking of somebody else?

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When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: General Wesley Clark takes a swipe at McCain - 6/30/2008 6:31:26 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

Performing work; which would include "performing activities you do to earn a living", in addition to the traditional ones referenced in the Talmud.

thornhappy



Performing work is not forbidden by halakha, melachah, or craftsmanship is... if you want to call what they do up there in Congress by that name go right ahead...

(in reply to thornhappy)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: General Wesley Clark takes a swipe at McCain - 7/1/2008 7:31:20 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

When he ran for VP he rather famously refused to campaign on the Sabbath


That's hilarious, because he went into the Senate and cast votes on the Sabbath.

If Lieberman is lying about his own observance, when *won't* he lie about? Zero Credibility.


And which of the 39 melachot (activities prohibited on the Shabbat) does that fall under?

If he walks into the Senate and casts a voice or raised hand vote he has not violated any melachot.

Campaigning OTOH violates, at least, burning (use of electricity) and shearing (combing of hair). Based on what is done a whole host of other melachot could be broken.

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: General Wesley Clark takes a swipe at McCain - 7/1/2008 8:20:50 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

Gen. Wesley Clark, acting as a surrogate for Barack Obama’s campaign, invoked John McCain’s military service against him in one of the more personal attacks on the Republican presidential nominee this election cycle.

Clark said that McCain lacked the executive experience necessary to be president, calling him “untested and untried” on CBS’ “Face the Nation.” And in saying so, he took a few swipes at McCain’s military service.

“He has been a voice on the Senate Armed Services Committee. And he has traveled all over the world. But he hasn't held executive responsibility. That large squadron in the Navy that he commanded — that wasn't a wartime squadron,” Clark said.

“I don’t think getting in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to become president.”


http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080629/pl_politico/11425

Could Clark be the VP for Obama?


This entire incident smacks of a planned event, to take the wind out of McCain's sails on the "military experience" issue.

Have a Obama stand-in make comments like this, then have Obama make a big deal about how "a person's lack of military experience shouldn't make a difference in his qualifications to become President" ... and have McCain agree ... just marginalized one of McCain's biggest advantages over Obama in the general race.

And McCain fell for it.

I don't like him, and he has his "issues" ... but Obama does have a clue on how to play dirty politics.

Firm


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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: General Wesley Clark takes a swipe at McCain - 7/1/2008 8:40:29 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Over and over the last few decades the American people have shown how easily they can be politically manipulated. We as a fairly intelligent lot here on CM wonder how people can fall for such tripe.

Any of us could be a campaign manager and win… the formula…find the strength of your opponent and attack it with outlandish innuendo. Don’t worry if it is true or makes sense…just make it juicy.

Stay as far from the true issues as possible.

And what ever you do don’t forget gay marriage and tax cuts for the middle class.

Oh oh oh wait..don’t forget Obama’s wife said “She was not proud to be an American”…or something like that I’m sure…lol
Butch

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: General Wesley Clark takes a swipe at McCain - 7/1/2008 9:05:29 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

This entire incident smacks of a planned event, to take the wind out of McCain's sails on the "military experience" issue.


Firm



That`s because you`re paranoid and suspescious and would probably do the same thing, given the chance,so you expect it in others.


BUT....


Clark didn`t mug McCain or disrespect him in any way.

He was asked a specific question about McCain`s military experiance as it relates to being the president.He didn`t just come out with the comment.


It`s a fair question because 1. McCain touts his military experience as a qualification to be POUTS and 2.most people want to know about this question and the reporter was doing his job.

And Clark answered the question honestly.He said it like it is.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He`s not the first guy(on the left-right or middle) to say that McCain's POW experience(though a character builder) is not really military experience.That`s a hard truth,but true all the same.

There`s plenty of other solid and tangible criticisms one can make about McCain`s voting record,regarding the military.He seems to vote against veteran`s interests a lot and was against helping vets find GIs who were MIA in Viet Nam.

Unfortunately for republicans,Clark has real credibility and authority with average Americans.He didn`t aim his comment at conservatives.

They were for regular folks who don`t have a dog in the fight,.....yet.

Clark helped blunt the notion that McCain is somehow untouchable in the military dept.and gets an automatic pass on the issue.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 7/1/2008 9:09:30 AM >

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: General Wesley Clark takes a swipe at McCain - 7/1/2008 5:43:34 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline 		Owner,

Do a search for "McCain" and my posts in this forum, and you'll find out what my opinion about him is.

Regardless,  you are lost in your ideology again.  McCain's military experience isn't simply his POW experience (and even if it was, I'd argue that the experience shows a lot about certain aspects of his character, that reflect well on him):

Wikipedia:

Both McCain's grandfather and father were admirals in the United States Navy. McCain graduated from the United States Naval Academy in 1958 and became a naval aviator, flying ground-attack aircraft from aircraft carriers. During the Vietnam War, he nearly lost his life in the 1967 USS Forrestal fire. Later that year while on a bombing mission over North Vietnam, he was shot down, badly injured, and captured as a prisoner of war by the North Vietnamese. He was held from 1967 to 1973, experiencing episodes of torture and refusing an out-of-sequence early repatriation offer; his war wounds would leave him with lifelong physical limitations.

He retired from the Navy as a captain in 1981 and, moving to Arizona, entered politics.

That adds up to over 20 years in uniform.  At the end of the day ... it still stacks up well against Obama's.

Firm


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(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: General Wesley Clark takes a swipe at McCain - 7/1/2008 5:44:44 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Clark helped blunt the notion that McCain is somehow untouchable in the military dept.and gets an automatic pass on the issue.


And I propose that this was exactly Obama's camp's intent.

Firm


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Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: General Wesley Clark takes a swipe at McCain - 7/1/2008 6:07:14 PM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline 		Clark is a fucking disgrace. Publically criticizing another officer....UCMJ Article 133 "Conduct Unbecoming An Officer and Gentleman"

(3) Examples of offenses. Instances of violation of this article include knowingly making a false official statement; dishonorable failure to pay a debt; cheating on an exam; opening and reading a letter of another without authority; using insulting or defamatory language to another officer in that officer’s presence or about that officer to other military persons; being drunk and disorderly in a public place; public association with known prostitutes; committing or attempting to commit a crime involving moral turpitude; and failing without good cause to support the officer’s family.

Ok now the drunk think and the disorderly thing and the prostitutes thing is widely ignored.... (Tailhook! ) But the rest stands...

McCain commanded a training squadron, there is no shame in that. In fact he did a phenomenal job with it and turned it around completely. Training squadrons are arguably the most important in Naval Aviation. Nobody goes in as a hotshot fighter pilot or a balls to the wall attack pilot! When I arrived at PriFly I was a snot nose fresh out of college kid with less than 100 hours total time in Cessna 150's and 172's. The IP's in the training squadrons made me an aviator, and the fleet replacement squadron made me a weapon. I dont see how someone intelligent enough to reach flag rank can not grasp the concept that what comes in through Pensacola are smart ass maggot college pukes, and the guys at OCS, API, and the various flight training squadrons make them Aviators and NFO's. I fail to see the dishonor or shame McCain should experience for literally building the future of Naval Aviation. Being entrusted with a training squadron is a hell of a billet, and an awesome responsibilty, because how well that squadron performs will ripple through every other squadron in the Navy, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard for the next 20 years.....  

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: General Wesley Clark takes a swipe at McCain - 7/1/2008 6:46:23 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline 		FR:

I'm going to record this as a "Obama dirty trick".

Firm




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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: General Wesley Clark takes a swipe at McCain - 7/2/2008 3:47:43 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

When he ran for VP he rather famously refused to campaign on the Sabbath


That's hilarious, because he went into the Senate and cast votes on the Sabbath.

If Lieberman is lying about his own observance, when *won't* he lie about? Zero Credibility.






And which of the 39 melachot (activities prohibited on the Shabbat) does that fall under?


Building. As in 'building or completing an electrical circuit' ( Pushing the voting button ).

Same reason some folks have Shabbos elevators in their buildings.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: General Wesley Clark takes a swipe at McCain - 7/2/2008 3:49:24 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

Clark is a fucking disgrace. Publically criticizing another officer....UCMJ Article 133 "Conduct Unbecoming An Officer and Gentleman"

(3) Examples of offenses. Instances of violation of this article include knowingly making a false official statement; dishonorable failure to pay a debt; cheating on an exam; opening and reading a letter of another without authority; using insulting or defamatory language to another officer in that officer’s presence or about that officer to other military persons; being drunk and disorderly in a public place; public association with known prostitutes; committing or attempting to commit a crime involving moral turpitude; and failing without good cause to support the officer’s family.

Ok now the drunk think and the disorderly thing and the prostitutes thing is widely ignored.... (Tailhook! ) But the rest stands...

McCain commanded a training squadron, there is no shame in that. In fact he did a phenomenal job with it and turned it around completely. Training squadrons are arguably the most important in Naval Aviation. Nobody goes in as a hotshot fighter pilot or a balls to the wall attack pilot! When I arrived at PriFly I was a snot nose fresh out of college kid with less than 100 hours total time in Cessna 150's and 172's. The IP's in the training squadrons made me an aviator, and the fleet replacement squadron made me a weapon. I dont see how someone intelligent enough to reach flag rank can not grasp the concept that what comes in through Pensacola are smart ass maggot college pukes, and the guys at OCS, API, and the various flight training squadrons make them Aviators and NFO's. I fail to see the dishonor or shame McCain should experience for literally building the future of Naval Aviation. Being entrusted with a training squadron is a hell of a billet, and an awesome responsibilty, because how well that squadron performs will ripple through every other squadron in the Navy, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard for the next 20 years.....  


THIS from the guy who admitted his obedience to his oaths is related to the chance of being-found-out violating them? ( Your "War-crimes trials are for losers" hypothesis )



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: General Wesley Clark takes a swipe at McCain - 7/2/2008 8:04:40 AM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
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From: Domme Emeritus
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NumberSix

Now that right there?

That's swiftboating with CLASS.  Get someone from the military who did more than clean latrines to actually point out the emporors with no clothes.

6 
   ... and the Republicans get so upset when their own tactics are used on them.  This whole comment is only upsetting because it's TRUE.

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: General Wesley Clark takes a swipe at McCain - 7/2/2008 3:10:18 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline 		People on the right aren't used to honest questions, answers, and debate. They are so used to the Republican playbook, they think everything is an angle, spin, or manipulation.

Its better to just look at the polices. If one's policies are good, you don't really have to lie about them. But if the policies are bad, that's when you can count on distortions.

Right now the Republicans are hemorrhaging in bad policies:

1. IRAQ and WMD -- war, et. al.

2. Not wanting to empower IRAN and eliminating IRAQ as a regional check on IRANIAN influence.

3. Not wanting Nuclear proliferation but scaring the shit out of the world with the preemptive doctrine.

4. Cutting taxes and increasing spending as if there will be no consequences to it.

5. The failure to secure Afghanistan.

6. The failure to plan for higher oil prices: (scant attention paid to public transportation, alternative energies, conservation et. al.)

7. The failure to prevent the looting of IRAQ.

8. The failure to regulate the mortgage market.

9. The denial of global warming.

10. The failure to properly respond to Katrina.

11. The failure of the National Security Team to heed pre 9-11 terrorist attack warnings.

12. The failure to address an exploding budget deficit.

13. Witnessing the dollar fall as a world currency.

Pick any subject here, and its difficult for a Republican party member to feel any sense of pride or accomplishment. Now that the policies are failing, gun, race, terrorist attack, and gay baiting may not work so effectively anymore.

Note: There is no need to "swiftboat" Republican policies. The cold hard facts tell all.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 7/2/2008 3:12:28 PM >

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: General Wesley Clark takes a swipe at McCain - 7/2/2008 3:21:39 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline 		I'm impressed with your comments about McCains accomplishments. I'm still not sure how his experience informs him on how to conduct foreign policy.

Frankly, these type of character assessments are all pretty insane. The real question is --- who, McCain or Obama, will pick the better cabinet? Each will only be as good and folks underneath of them. In this regard, your characterization of McCain suggests he might be a talented leader of his cabinet and staff.

Neither he or Obama wear the same ideological blinders as BUSH & Co. (Which diminishes cabinet efficiency.)

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 7/2/2008 3:22:22 PM >

(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 60
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