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Slavery as Slavery or I to Thou? - 11/8/2005 8:34:26 AM

ErosPsyche

Posts: 46
Joined: 11/5/2005
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I have a good friend who is in a one year contract with her Master. Her Master is a putz, and has treated her pretty shabbily, and her reaction has been to continue to serve, to the best of her abilities, the remainder of her contract. She is, at this point at least, not so much responding to him as she is responding to her own integrity. At this point, slavery as slavery is its own virtue and reward.

That's one paradigm that I have seen frequently articulated in M/s, often something like "I love Master, but ultimately it is not Master's excellence that calls service from me. Rather, I draw strength to be a slave from the concept of slavery itself - I can most perfectly serve as a slave when my fidelity is ultimately given to being a slave."

I understand that paradigm - as a Marien Officer I had the pleasure of serving under virtuous leaders more often than not, but on occaision had to be loyal to and follow some real douchebags. I had to focus not on the senior in question, but on my own willingness to exercise a habit of virtue as a junior and be the right kind of Marine.

Another model for slavery is one that is relationship focused, where the slave drawns their strength to serve, the grace to surrender, from the dynamic of being owned. Not neccesarily from the idea that the Master is so awesome or flawless that they call slavery out, but rather by putting eyes on Master, on serving, I to Thou. My slave has her eyes fixed on me, and it is from loving me with all her heart that she draws the strength to serve and the grace to be supple and kneel. I don't mean I am such a wicked good Master that she is succesful, but that she is so wicked focused on me that she is.

Do either of these modes of slavery resonate with people here who identify as M/s types? I see this as a binary, but perhaps there are other, distinct modes of slavery I haven't come across?

-Bill

Post #: 1

RE: Slavery as Slavery or I to Thou? - 11/8/2005 8:44:10 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ErosPsyche
That's one paradigm that I have seen frequently articulated in M/s, often something like "I love Master, but ultimately it is not Master's excellence that calls service from me. Rather, I draw strength to be a slave from the concept of slavery itself - I can most perfectly serve as a slave when my fidelity is ultimately given to being a slave."

Yup, being a slave is all about being ME and fulfilling ME.

quote:

My slave has her eyes fixed on me, and it is from loving me with all her heart that she draws the strength to serve and the grace to be supple and kneel.

Drawing strength from the sense of one's self and the security of the relationship is a VERY different thing than drawing strength from love.

quote:

Do either of these modes of slavery resonate with people here who identify as M/s types? I see this as a binary, but perhaps there are other, distinct modes of slavery I haven't come across?
-Bill

We're pretty much just being who we are. We all have our own resonances, some people find great strength in ritual, others find nothing at all. HOW we find our resonance is fairly immaterial on a general level.

< Message edited by LuckyAlbatross -- 11/8/2005 8:45:42 AM >

(in reply to ErosPsyche)

Post #: 2

RE: Slavery as Slavery or I to Thou? - 11/8/2005 9:10:10 AM

wipmebeetme100

Posts: 198
Joined: 7/31/2005
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quote:

My slave has her eyes fixed on me, and it is from loving me with all her heart that she draws the strength to serve and the grace to be supple and kneel.

Although at all times i will have my eyes fixed on Master, it is not from loving him that i have the desire to serve. I have served Masters that i have not loved. Serving is such an integral part of me, who i am.....like Tina says, "What's love got to do with it?" As a matter of fact, i see love as a hinderance to most Master/slave relationships. (That's a whole seperate topic...and an opinion that i am sure is not popular)

Peace,
cathy

_____________________________

Happiness is like peeing your pants: Everyone can see it, but only you can feel its warmth
~Unknown

(in reply to ErosPsyche)

Post #: 3

RE: Slavery as Slavery or I to Thou? - 11/8/2005 9:28:57 AM

ErosPsyche

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Joined: 11/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
We're pretty much just being who we are. We all have our own resonances, some people find great strength in ritual, others find nothing at all. HOW we find our resonance is fairly immaterial on a general level.

I understand you to be saying something like: "We are what we are, and so discussion of what we are isn't worthwhile."

If so, I absolutely disagree. Γνώθι Σεαυτόν is not said in vain - if you do not know yourself, you are not prepared to walk your path.

How many people here have spent years, decades, beating their heads against relationship and personal walls because they didn't know who they were? How many people here have suffered undue grief or damaged relationships because they were pushing their square peg into a round hole?

Immaterial, forsooth! On the contrary, understanding HOW we find our resonance may be the most material, pressing question anyone here asks.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 4

RE: Slavery as Slavery or I to Thou? - 11/8/2005 9:35:31 AM

ErosPsyche

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Joined: 11/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wipmebeetme100

Although at all times i will have my eyes fixed on Master, it is not from loving him that i have the desire to serve. I have served Masters that i have not loved.

Doh! I shouldn't have used the "L" word - now people will miss what I said and veer off to follow a red herring. In her particular case it is love, but as you point out, there may be not the smallest hint of love in the M/s relationship.

I was getting at a self-focus vs. other-focus as the interior motivation or font of energy in the relationship: "I must be the best slave I can be for me," vice "Thou Art My Compass."

FORGET THE LOVE!!!!

(in reply to wipmebeetme100)

Post #: 5

RE: Slavery as Slavery or I to Thou? - 11/8/2005 11:00:41 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ErosPsyche
I understand you to be saying something like: "We are what we are, and so discussion of what we are isn't worthwhile."

Anyone who thinks I'd ever say discussion of what we are isn't worthwhile doesn't know me.

I'm saying "This is who we are, exactly HOW we get there isn't relevant." For this discussion at least.

Discussions of HOW to get somewhere, of what path a particular person takes are important, just not what I felt you were focusing on in this thread.

quote:

Immaterial, forsooth! On the contrary, understanding HOW we find our resonance may be the most material, pressing question anyone here asks.

For our own individual selves absolutely. But I thought your question and topic was specifically more on focus and self-perception....not another discussion of method.

(in reply to ErosPsyche)

Post #: 6

RE: Slavery as Slavery or I to Thou? - 11/8/2005 11:17:41 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

Another model for slavery is one that is relationship focused, where the slave drawns their strength to serve, the grace to surrender, from the dynamic of being owned. Not neccesarily from the idea that the Master is so awesome or flawless that they call slavery out, but rather by putting eyes on Master, on serving, I to Thou. My slave has her eyes fixed on me, and it is from loving me with all her heart that she draws the strength to serve and the grace to be supple and kneel. I don't mean I am such a wicked good Master that she is succesful, but that she is so wicked focused on me that she is.

I am trying to get this around my head.

So, your saying that because she loves/submits you, she becomes more?
Without You she cannot become more?
That without the You, the I has no purpose and therefore has no being?

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to ErosPsyche)

Post #: 7

RE: Slavery as Slavery or I to Thou? - 11/8/2005 2:00:17 PM

Angrylibrarian

Posts: 214
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ErosPsyche

I have a good friend who is in a one year contract with her Master. Her Master is a putz, and has treated her pretty shabbily, and her reaction has been to continue to serve, to the best of her abilities, the remainder of her contract. She is, at this point at least, not so much responding to him as she is responding to her own integrity. At this point, slavery as slavery is its own virtue and reward.

That's one paradigm that I have seen frequently articulated in M/s, often something like "I love Master, but ultimately it is not Master's excellence that calls service from me. Rather, I draw strength to be a slave from the concept of slavery itself - I can most perfectly serve as a slave when my fidelity is ultimately given to being a slave."

I understand that paradigm - as a Marien Officer I had the pleasure of serving under virtuous leaders more often than not, but on occaision had to be loyal to and follow some real douchebags. I had to focus not on the senior in question, but on my own willingness to exercise a habit of virtue as a junior and be the right kind of Marine.

Another model for slavery is one that is relationship focused, where the slave drawns their strength to serve, the grace to surrender, from the dynamic of being owned. Not neccesarily from the idea that the Master is so awesome or flawless that they call slavery out, but rather by putting eyes on Master, on serving, I to Thou. My slave has her eyes fixed on me, and it is from loving me with all her heart that she draws the strength to serve and the grace to be supple and kneel. I don't mean I am such a wicked good Master that she is succesful, but that she is so wicked focused on me that she is.

Do either of these modes of slavery resonate with people here who identify as M/s types? I see this as a binary, but perhaps there are other, distinct modes of slavery I haven't come across?

-Bill

yeah it resonates. (I wish you had more pointed questions here because I think this is an important topic) And i think you answered your own question in that love of duty, devotion to duty often translates to love of mission, devotion to leader.

I think this is a much more interesting topic when one realises that masters probably keep slaves who may not be all they wish in service talent skill or practice but who serve with such devotion to duty and love, who are so "wicked focused" on master they gain value and become indespensible.

(in reply to ErosPsyche)

Post #: 8

RE: Slavery as Slavery or I to Thou? - 11/8/2005 3:28:26 PM

candystripper

Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
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Telling me "her Master is a putz" doesn't give me enough info. Is He ignoring her...or hurting her? If she's in harm's way then hopefully You can use Your influence to get her out. My best wishes to all concerned.

candystripper

(in reply to Angrylibrarian)

Post #: 9

RE: Slavery as Slavery or I to Thou? - 11/8/2005 3:48:30 PM

ExistentialSteel

Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
Status: offline

Slavery and the Marines is a stretch, first of all, speaking as a former Army enlisted man who became an officer. Then the obvious question is to question your relationship with someone who has a Master? Next, the actual question, she is only upholding her contract out of honor since he has proven to be less than she expected? If this were a real, legal contract, there would be ways to rectify breach of contract. Since, here, we only have an imaginary contract, let her do what she feels is right… and not what you feel is right for her.

< Message edited by ExistentialSteel -- 11/8/2005 3:57:56 PM >

_____________________________

For those who are like Roman Candles leaving bright trails in the night sky while the crowd watches until the dark blue center light bursts into magnificent colors and the crowd goes, ahhhhhhhhhh.

(in reply to ErosPsyche)

Post #: 10

RE: Slavery as Slavery or I to Thou? - 11/8/2005 3:51:42 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

Telling me "her Master is a putz" doesn't give me enough info. Is He ignoring her...or hurting her? If she's in harm's way then hopefully You can use Your influence to get her out. My best wishes to all concerned.

candystripper

Get her out? What is that all about?
It isnt about the relationship in that way - it is about the concept.
This is a dynamic thread,not an abuse one. At least as I read it. I hope the thread doens become hijacked.

**********************

quote:

Do either of these modes of slavery resonate with people here who identify as M/s types? I see this as a binary, but perhaps there are other, distinct modes of slavery I haven't come across?

-Bill

Eros -

Something I have just read over and over again and thought of. Are not all relationships binary? They are by nature either I-it or I-thou? I too, am intrigued if there are other modes.

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to candystripper)

Post #: 11

RE: Slavery as Slavery or I to Thou? - 11/8/2005 5:31:18 PM

OscarHargraves

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Joined: 8/9/2005
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It sounds to me like the Slave in this relationship has more integretiy than the Master. But has she actually tried to communicate and convey her dismay and feelings to him like she should? If she has not then she is also partially to blame for the situation.

_____________________________

Never drive faster than your guardian angel can fly ! !

(in reply to ErosPsyche)

Post #: 12

RE: Slavery as Slavery or I to Thou? - 11/8/2005 6:09:29 PM

WalterRego

Posts: 276
Joined: 12/28/2004
Status: offline

Perhaps my notions of service are not as developed or nuanced as all yours, but if the one I serve does not merit my service, then how do I further my integrity by continuing to serve? I might as well leave and serve myself with integrity or better still, serve the community in freely given community service.

More importantly, the very concept of a contract denotes mutual obligation. An exchange of promises and an undertaking of responsibilities on both sides. When there is a breach of a major term on one side, the other side is free to declare the contract broken or perhaps even void. Course, you didn't explicitly say there was a breach, just that he was a putz, but I assume that's what you meant. Merely being a putz is not ground for breaking any contract, even a contract for personal services.

But perhaps I misunderstand on an even deeper level: do/can slaves have contracts? The whole notion of slave and contract seems mutually contradictory. Historically I can't recall any group of slaves which had a contract or rights. Perhaps then the whole concept of a "slave contract" is flawed from the outset. Or at least so open to the individuals' own constructs of what it means as to be beyond debate.

< Message edited by WalterRego -- 11/8/2005 6:12:45 PM >

_____________________________

A person should not choose the form in which he wishes to perform the service, but he should perform it in any manner the opportunity affords. He should be like a vessel into which anything may be poured - wine, milk, or water.
-Abraham Joshua Heschel

(in reply to OscarHargraves)

Post #: 13

RE: Slavery as Slavery or I to Thou? - 11/8/2005 7:24:59 PM

MistressYlwa

Posts: 263
Joined: 8/25/2005
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Reading thru the answers, I have to step back and go directly to what you have asked.

If she is satisfied to serve, then it is as it should be. We all have our own ideas of what service entails. To you it may seem that she is not happy or dissatisfied with her position. If this is just your observation, then it is possible that it fulfills her needs and is suitable.

If she has told you that she is not alright with things as they are, then there is no reason for her to stay. This is for mutual satisfaction of needs, among other things. If it is not making her happy, then there is no reason to say it is a suitable match. There is no perfect relationship. However, if the right one comes along, it may seem that it is, for us. That is all we can ask for. Love is another topic altogether.

Mistress Ylwa

You see what power is - holding someone elses fear in your hand and showing it to them! - Amy Tan

(in reply to WalterRego)

Post #: 14

RE: Slavery as Slavery or I to Thou? - 11/8/2005 8:38:19 PM

themischievous1

Posts: 151
Joined: 4/3/2005
From: San Antonio, Texas
Status: offline

For me, I identify with the latter but admire the former. To me the ultimate is to serve because of who one is, for the sake of the slavery itself. When one serves from this place, the master in question is almost inconsequential. I think this is powerful, deep slavery that is secure and grounded. Slavery that is based on emotion could be fickle, couldn't it? There are no guarantees when it comes to love. It is easier, (and thus less challenging), in my opinion, to serve out of love and the devotion that stems from that love, versus serving the concept/principle of slavery or for the sake of being true to one's own identity.

This reminds me of an intense part in the movie, "The Story of O," after Rene' gives O to Sir Stefan, when O explains to Sir Stefan, "I love Rene and so I obey Him." Sir Stefan frowns, admonishes, and corrects O. "You will obey me without loving me and without my loving you."

I'm not sure why I find that exchange extremely titillating and profound, but I do. I think I'm where O is when she came to Sir Stefan. In the future though, a long way down the road probably, I hope to be able to serve for slavery's sake, because it's who I am. That just seems more... solid somehow. More reliable and permanent.

(in reply to ErosPsyche)

Post #: 15

RE: Slavery as Slavery or I to Thou? - 11/8/2005 8:49:01 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: themischievous1
I'm not sure why I find that exchange extremely titillating and profound, but I do. I think I'm where O is when she came to Sir Stefan. In the future though, a long way down the road probably, I hope to be able to serve for slavery's sake, because it's who I am. That just seems more... solid somehow. More reliable and permanent.

That was truly profoundly said, thank you.

While this is true for all relationships, not just Ms, love has very little to do with making a relationship work long term.

(in reply to themischievous1)

Post #: 16

RE: Slavery as Slavery or I to Thou? - 11/8/2005 11:09:49 PM

ExistentialSteel

Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: themischievous1
I'm not sure why I find that exchange extremely titillating and profound, but I do. I think I'm where O is when she came to Sir Stefan. In the future though, a long way down the road probably, I hope to be able to serve for slavery's sake, because it's who I am. That just seems more... solid somehow. More reliable and permanent.

That was truly profoundly said, thank you.

While this is true for all relationships, not just Ms, love has very little to do with making a relationship work long term.

Knocking love? This could spawn a whole new debate.

_____________________________

For those who are like Roman Candles leaving bright trails in the night sky while the crowd watches until the dark blue center light bursts into magnificent colors and the crowd goes, ahhhhhhhhhh.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 17

RE: Slavery as Slavery or I to Thou? - 11/9/2005 1:52:45 AM

Wolfie648

Posts: 600
Joined: 9/14/2005
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quote:

I think this is a much more interesting topic when one realises that masters probably keep slaves who may not be all they wish in service talent skill or practice but who serve with such devotion to duty and love, who are so "wicked focused" on master they gain value and become indespensible.

The desire to serve is better than the competence without the desire. In my books anyways.

D (owner of j)

_____________________________

Possibly.

(in reply to Angrylibrarian)

Post #: 18

RE: Slavery as Slavery or I to Thou? - 11/9/2005 2:08:54 AM

1RottenJohnny

Posts: 113
Joined: 11/12/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
While this is true for all relationships, not just Ms, love has very little to do with making a relationship work long term.

Lucky,
Understanding how you identify I can see your point in regard to M/s. But to apply it to other relationships is a bit reckless, don't you think?

For someone like me, I would have no interest in having a slave that serves with no measure of love between us whether it be romantic or not. A relationship between a Master and a slave who serves only for their own self-interests seems incredibly empty for something that should create so much respect. How long before slaves start saying "It's just a job."?

_____________________________

Compassion is a wonderful thing...taken in moderation!

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 19

RE: Slavery as Slavery or I to Thou? - 11/9/2005 5:09:20 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel
Knocking love? This could spawn a whole new debate.

Knocking it? Where did you get that from?

I could also say that working windows have very little to do with making a car run long term. This is simply true, doesn't mean I'm knocking working windows, it just means I see their use and necessity when it comes to a certain task.

Love is grand, I celebrate love. But it ain't gonna solve problems, and it ain't gonna make a relationship work or fail. Takes a lot of other skills and understanding for that.

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)

Post #: 20

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