RE: Battle for submission

RE: Battle for submission (Full Version)

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TreasureKY -> RE: Battle for submission (6/30/2008 8:14:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin ... "I am a strong submissive and I need a really strong dominant to TAKE control". Some will say that they need a dominant who can outlast or be strong enough to squash their resistance. Some want a dominant who can outthink them and thereby outsmart them into submission. Some will say that their willful refusal is a test of their dominant's power. Some will go so far as to say that if their dominant fails such a test and they are the ones to "win out' in the end, it clearly indicates that the dominant is either not really a dominant or is too weak of one for them. On one hand, I fully agree with you that D/s and M/s relationships should not be battlegrounds where one has to fight to win or lose. Good relationships are about everyone in the relationship winning. On the other hand, I can relate somewhat to the attitude that you are questioning in the quote above. I am not submissive to everyone; to me, submission is deference... willingly ceding authority. I can't reach that point of submission unless and until a certain level of respect and trust have been earned. Part of that is knowing that he is "worthy" of my respect and trust. I can't make myself subservient to a man who is less emotionally stable than I am. I can't defer to the wishes of a man who is less decisive that I am. I can't subject myself to a man who is less capable and willing to take control than I am. I can't cede authority and decision making to a man who can't keep up with me intellectually. lol... What would be the purpose of submitting to a man who was less dominant than I am? That's not saying that I purposely challenge. I am consistently who I am; I do not behave differently. When it came to something as important to me as my primary relationship, it was important that Firm was to be able to accept me as I am. I will not subdue my personality and abilities in order to "get along"... that is reserved for people that don't really need to know me and that I have no real investment in.

fluffyswitch -> RE: Battle for submission (6/30/2008 8:17:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TreasureKY quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin ... "I am a strong submissive and I need a really strong dominant to TAKE control". Some will say that they need a dominant who can outlast or be strong enough to squash their resistance. Some want a dominant who can outthink them and thereby outsmart them into submission. Some will say that their willful refusal is a test of their dominant's power. Some will go so far as to say that if their dominant fails such a test and they are the ones to "win out' in the end, it clearly indicates that the dominant is either not really a dominant or is too weak of one for them. On one hand, I fully agree with you that D/s and M/s relationships should not be battlegrounds where one has to fight to win or lose. Good relationships are about everyone in the relationship winning. On the other hand, I can relate somewhat to the attitude that you are questioning in the quote above. I am not submissive to everyone; to me, submission is deference... willingly ceding authority. I can't reach that point of submission unless and until a certain level of respect and trust have been earned. Part of that is knowing that he is "worthy" of my respect and trust. I can't make myself subservient to a man who is less emotionally stable than I am. I can't defer to the wishes of a man who is less decisive that I am. I can't subject myself to a man who is less capable and willing to take control than I am. I can't cede authority and decision making to a man who can't keep up with me intellectually. lol... What would be the purpose of submitting to a man who was less dominant than I am? i'm glad that i'm not the only one with this attitude, sometimes i wonder lol.

happypervert -> RE: Battle for submission (6/30/2008 8:19:09 AM)
Somwhere there is a line between a submissive who is strong and wants a dominant strong enough to stand up to her, and a submissive who is just a pain-in-the-ass who enjoys conflict for it's own sake. I think the op may be exaggerating a lot of statements by the merely strong ones to push them into pain-in-the-ass category. For example: quote: Some will say that they need a dominant who can outlast or be strong enough to squash their resistance. If we replace the biased word "squash" with something like "overcome", then I think this behavior is entirely normal. In the early stages of relationships I'll give a submissive a task she probably doesn't want to do. I expect some internal conflict between the desire to submit and not wanting to surrender that little piece, and it may take a while. She may try to get out of it, but I won't let her and all I have to do is wait until she gives in. I'm not doing any squashing, though maybe she is. I see this as a necessary exercise we must go through to get deeper into the relationship; without it we're just scratching the surface. Similarly, the comments about wanting dominants who can outthink them may come from those who are used to outthinking and manipulating others. In that case, they need someone who can see through their little games and even beat them at it, and wouldn't respect or submit to someone who couldn't do it. I know it's fun to see a submissive do what I want even after I've told her how I'm manipulating her, so I'm assuming it must be just as much fun to submit knowing you've been manipulated. So I think strong submissives know they have power and simply want someone who has more. Nothing wrong with that. edit: got off point so rewrote -- too much caffeine

MzMia -> RE: Battle for submission (6/30/2008 8:23:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin Over the years I've heard countless submissives and recently seen several instances of such on the boards where they say things like "I am a strong submissive and I need a really strong dominant to TAKE control". Some will say that they need a dominant who can outlast or be strong enough to squash their resistance. Some want a dominant who can outthink them and thereby outsmart them into submission. Some will say that their willful refusal is a test of their dominant's power. Some will go so far as to say that if their dominant fails such a test and they are the ones to "win out' in the end, it clearly indicates that the dominant is either not really a dominant or is too weak of one for them. I fail to see where submissiveness comes into those scenarios. That's not being dominated...that's being coerced. That's not submission...that's losing a battle. D/s and M/s relationships should not be battlegrounds where one has to fight to win or lose. No one should have to fight for or have to take your submission. If you are a submissive and your submission is what fulfills you, why on earth would you need someone to fight you to get it from you? It should be something that comes from you willingly....out of respect, out of trust, out of joy, out of your own need to surrender...but not because someone coerced it from you, battled you for it, outsmarted you, threatened you into it, placated, bribed or bartered with you to get it. That's not submission...that's being the loser of the battle....and there shouldn't have had to be a battle in the first place. [sm=applause.gif] What a wonderful post erin, you are on fire! It must be close to the 4th of July, what a firecracker you are. I am just glad that a submissive female actually wrote this, and you described so well what many of us Dominants think. I have enough battles in my day to day life, I will pass on a submissive that I must fight and play games with. A submissive that wants to "test" me? WTF? I thought I was supposed to test them! If there is a battle you will win, because I will run away from that type of submissive. I am not a Top, nor a switch, and I don't Top from the bottom. Silly wabbits, tricks are for kids!

MissHarlet -> RE: Battle for submission (6/30/2008 8:25:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin Over the years I've heard countless submissives and recently seen several instances of such on the boards where they say things like "I am a strong submissive and I need a really strong dominant to TAKE control". Some will say that they need a dominant who can outlast or be strong enough to squash their resistance. Some want a dominant who can outthink them and thereby outsmart them into submission. Some will say that their willful refusal is a test of their dominant's power. Some will go so far as to say that if their dominant fails such a test and they are the ones to "win out' in the end, it clearly indicates that the dominant is either not really a dominant or is too weak of one for them. I fail to see where submissiveness comes into those scenarios. That's not being dominated...that's being coerced. That's not submission...that's losing a battle. D/s and M/s relationships should not be battlegrounds where one has to fight to win or lose. No one should have to fight for or have to take your submission. If you are a submissive and your submission is what fulfills you, why on earth would you need someone to fight you to get it from you? It should be something that comes from you willingly....out of respect, out of trust, out of joy, out of your own need to surrender...but not because someone coerced it from you, battled you for it, outsmarted you, threatened you into it, placated, bribed or bartered with you to get it. That's not submission...that's being the loser of the battle....and there shouldn't have had to be a battle in the first place. [sm=applause.gif] What a wonderful post erin, you are on fire! It must be close to the 4th of July, what a firecracker you are. I am just glad that a submissive female actually wrote this, and you described so well what many of us Dominants think. I have enough battles in my day to day life, I will pass on a submissive that I must fight and play games with. A submissive that wants to "test" me? WTF? I thought I was supposed to test them! If there is a battle you will win, because I will run away any submissive that is looking for fights and battles. [:D] ME TOO!!!!! For that I would still be married .

Lockit -> RE: Battle for submission (6/30/2008 8:29:31 AM)
I agree there shouldn't be a taking of anything in an exchange of power. I know that there is often a struggle in letting go or giving someone else that power over them or their life and that I willingly take on, but the drama, hassle and conflict of a struggle to gain power, I have no need for. I have no interest in it. I would rather prove myself and gain trust, respect and devotion. This isn't a capture and overcome thing for me and I would question anyone who needed such from me. As for the struggles of letting go or fear... it is only natural and that I see as a part of the process for many people. That I welcome because it typically results in self awareness and a great deal of happiness in seeing how deeply emotional and rewarding that it all can be.

MzMia -> RE: Battle for submission (6/30/2008 8:40:37 AM)
I love this topic! [:D] IMHO, if people would take the time in the BEGINNING and get to know their partners well, that would circumvent a lot of the confusion. Ask the hard questions early, get to know your Dominant well, and be smart and wise enough to only agree to submit to a Dominant that you respect and trust. Why would someone want to submit to someone they don't know, don't respect and don't trust? On the flip side, why would I want a submissive I don't know, don't trust or don't respect? If your relationship is a "battle" why are you in it? As Lady Harlett said, if I wanted to remain in a battle, I could have stayed with my ex-husband!

Mercnbeth -> RE: Battle for submission (6/30/2008 8:48:46 AM)
for this slave, the struggle isn't TO submit to Master, it's to NOT submit to everyone else. the challenge, for this slave, is to remember her training, to keep in the forefront of her mind that she serves ONLY ONE, and that is Master, and not succumb to the knee-jerk reaction she has within her---to submit to all who cross her path. it is getting easier, thanks to Him.[:)]

ownedgirlie -> RE: Battle for submission (6/30/2008 9:04:29 AM)
Having been unfairly manipulated (so knowledge of my inner being could be used against me) since birth and on into my marriage, my battle was with trusting that this man was different than all that. My struggle was with myself - afraid to let go, afraid to trust, afraid to admit he was right and I wasn't. He saw the capability and worked with it. I am enormously grateful. One thought on the word "surrender." He doesn't allow me to use it when conversing with or referring to him. One surrenders to something one has preferred to win - like a war. I willingly gave myself over, because I wanted what was on the other side, and I knew it was best for me. Not because I had ceded to it.

RCdc -> RE: Battle for submission (6/30/2008 9:09:18 AM)
Yeah erin, I get your post and pretty much agree. There was a 'battle' for me internally, but that is something that you get past - part of the journey - but battles and tests of wills? Too much drama. And this - quote: ORIGINAL: KatyLied I don't want to have to fight. I want to be inspired. ...pretty much rocks. Love it. the.dark.

julietsierra -> RE: Battle for submission (6/30/2008 9:09:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: happypervert Similarly, the comments about wanting dominants who can outthink them may come from those who are used to outthinking and manipulating others. In that case, they need someone who can see through their little games and even beat them at it, and wouldn't respect or submit to someone who couldn't do it. So I think strong submissives know they have power and simply want someone who has more. Nothing wrong with that. BINGO!! That's it right ON the button!!! Thank you happy. juliet

Missokyst -> RE: Battle for submission (6/30/2008 9:11:46 AM)
I was with you right up there till you said "out-think". I do take the position of looking for someone who is "strong enough to be my man". But for me that is not a physically overwhelming person even though at times it is fun to be ravished. It is not someone who is going to bully me into submitting, because I see bullying as a childish tatic and not at all dominant. For me it is someone who doesn't need to knock me down to make himself feel better about who he is. I have sought out people who are not threatened by my intelligence or my personality quirk of over thinking. I do want them to out think me at times because even though I may not pay attentiion at the time, I am able to recall that later and use it. It is not a matter of out-thinking me in order to get me to submit. It is more like added information which might help redirect my spiral of thoughts later. I am not sure if that is as much out-thinking as it is being at a similar level with different eyes. I do agree with you on all other points without question. Kyst

DominantJenny -> RE: Battle for submission (6/30/2008 9:15:17 AM)
IME, a lot of people who talk about that are talking about it in a scening sense, ie. resistance play makes them hot. Now, if my submissive says no to me, he or she isn't going to get a take-down, she or he is going to get a very pissed off Jenny. However, I do love a little reluctance in a submissive...if it's easy for them to submit, well, I don't get as big a rush of power as when it's more difficult, that's all. I think at least some of the people who talk like that are ham-handedly referring to that aspect of the dynamic. Then there are the ones that are conflicted about their submission and having it "taken" frees them from responsibility for it. For people who really DO mean it and aren't battling personal issues...meh.

DisenchantedLife -> RE: Battle for submission (6/30/2008 9:17:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin Over the years I've heard countless submissives and recently seen several instances of such on the boards where they say things like "I am a strong submissive and I need a really strong dominant to TAKE control". Some will say that they need a dominant who can outlast or be strong enough to squash their resistance. Some want a dominant who can outthink them and thereby outsmart them into submission. Some will say that their willful refusal is a test of their dominant's power. Some will go so far as to say that if their dominant fails such a test and they are the ones to "win out' in the end, it clearly indicates that the dominant is either not really a dominant or is too weak of one for them. I fail to see where submissiveness comes into those scenarios. That's not being dominated...that's being coerced. That's not submission...that's losing a battle. D/s and M/s relationships should not be battlegrounds where one has to fight to win or lose. No one should have to fight for or have to take your submission. If you are a submissive and your submission is what fulfills you, why on earth would you need someone to fight you to get it from you? It should be something that comes from you willingly....out of respect, out of trust, out of joy, out of your own need to surrender...but not because someone coerced it from you, battled you for it, outsmarted you, threatened you into it, placated, bribed or bartered with you to get it. That's not submission...that's being the loser of the battle....and there shouldn't have had to be a battle in the first place. Because Mist. Its all a path. Level of maturity, even if you will. They are not yet there yet. Because they are afraid of it? I am sure there is many reasons why it is a battle field. I for one, used to make it a batle field for many different reasons. It was a place I was at. Now I am at a different place. It is all a path to our own enlightenment, yes? We are all in different stages and places of it.

mistoferin -> RE: Battle for submission (6/30/2008 9:20:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MzMia IMHO, if people would take the time in the BEGINNING and get to know their partners well, that would circumvent a lot of the confusion. Ask the hard questions early, get to know your Dominant well, and be smart and wise enough to only agree to submit to a Dominant that you respect and trust. Thank you. To others for clarity: I would like to clarify because there seems to be some confusion about what I am saying. I'm not saying that there is any conflict whatsoever with being a strong woman and a submissive woman. Sir isn't home right now for me to ask him but I am confident that if I did his answer would probably be along the lines of there being no aspect of me, whether it be physically, emotionally or mentally, that could be viewed in any way as weak. I AM a very strong and capable woman whom outside of the boundaries of my relationship would likely be viewed as anything BUT submissive. As HappyPervert said...there is no doubt that I am powerful. As a strong woman, of COURSE I look for those same characteristics and attributes in a partner. I would think that those are things that ANY woman would wish for in a partner. But as Mz. Mia said, I look for those characteristics in someone before dominance and submission become a part of the dynamic. Once I determined that Sir is a man who possesses the characteristics that make him appealing to me as a dominant partner and decided to commit to a relationship with him....why then would there be any need for me to "test" him, defy him, push at the boundaries he sets or challenge him? If I felt that I had to consistently include those things as a part of our dynamic I would no longer be able to call my side of the dynamic "submission" because it would be an inaccurate descriptor if he was consistently having to "best" me to get me there. Challenging? I'm sure I could be very challenging if it was my desire to do so. I'd rather be stimulating. I didn't sign up for a contest where there would be a winner at the end. My hope is to cross the finish line together.

mistoferin -> RE: Battle for submission (6/30/2008 9:31:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Missokyst I was with you right up there till you said "out-think". I do take the position of looking for someone who is "strong enough to be my man". But for me that is not a physically overwhelming person even though at times it is fun to be ravished. It is not someone who is going to bully me into submitting, because I see bullying as a childish tatic and not at all dominant. For me it is someone who doesn't need to knock me down to make himself feel better about who he is. I have sought out people who are not threatened by my intelligence or my personality quirk of over thinking. I do want them to out think me at times because even though I may not pay attentiion at the time, I am able to recall that later and use it. It is not a matter of out-thinking me in order to get me to submit. It is more like added information which might help redirect my spiral of thoughts later. I am not sure if that is as much out-thinking as it is being at a similar level with different eyes. I do agree with you on all other points without question. Kyst Oh I am so glad that you brought this up, especially the part about being on similar level with different eyes. I don't need a man who is smarter than me...but I guess that I do need a man who can be at a similar level even though we may take the same thought and view it very differently. I am overjoyed and amazed when Sir can get my head just spinning and wondering how the hell I ended up there...lol...and he's damn good at it. I guess what I was trying to say is that I can't understand the need to have someone who is going to use their intelligence as a weapon in a battle for submission from someone.

mistoferin -> RE: Battle for submission (6/30/2008 9:38:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: happypervert quote: Some will say that they need a dominant who can outlast or be strong enough to squash their resistance. If we replace the biased word "squash" with something like "overcome", then I think this behavior is entirely normal. In the early stages of relationships I'll give a submissive a task she probably doesn't want to do. I expect some internal conflict between the desire to submit and not wanting to surrender that little piece, and it may take a while. She may try to get out of it, but I won't let her and all I have to do is wait until she gives in. I'm not doing any squashing, though maybe she is. I see this as a necessary exercise we must go through to get deeper into the relationship; without it we're just scratching the surface. Oh yes, you are absolutely right. There will be internal struggles. The key word there though is internal. And yes, it may take time. But that wasn't what I was referring to. I was referring to those who are outwardly defiant in their struggle. Those who push because they want to test and see if they will be pushed back. Those who if they don't get that push back they see it as a failure on the part of the dominant....and not as a failure of their submission.

fluffyswitch -> RE: Battle for submission (6/30/2008 9:41:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin . Those who if they don't get that push back they see it as a failure on the part of the dominant....and not as a failure of their submission. i'm asking this as a literal question out of curiosity because i've been thinking about this a lot lately. is there really such a thing as a 'failure of submission' or is there just a 'failure of submission' with person x? i think personally it's more a matter of compatibility for not finding a dominant that wants them to fight (because i'm sure that out of 6 billion people that there has to be at least one person that likes people who fight) than an issue of 'you don't know how to submit'. like i said before i'm not attempting to make a personal comment or anything (i've gotten really paranoid lately lol) and i really am curious why we say that so often, like submission is the BDSM equivalent of the GREs or something.

mistoferin -> RE: Battle for submission (6/30/2008 9:46:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: happypervert Similarly, the comments about wanting dominants who can outthink them may come from those who are used to outthinking and manipulating others. In that case, they need someone who can see through their little games and even beat them at it, and wouldn't respect or submit to someone who couldn't do it. I guess I see no need for a dominant who could see through me and my little games. Even if I may easily outthink or manipulate others, I can't imagine playing little games and trying to manipulate the man I agreed to and committed myself to being in a power exchange relationship with where I assume the submissive position. Manipulating and playing head games are NOT part of submission.

RavenMuse -> RE: Battle for submission (6/30/2008 9:51:32 AM)
No 'battle' in THIS household, I have no wish to live in a war zone. she submits to Me because of who I am and because the EXCHANGE works for both of Us, allows Us the simply be who We are. I fullfill My part, the responcibilitys I took on when I accepted her submission. I didn't need to beat her down to get it... I don't jump through 'make me' hoops... I drew it from her, she saw someone she believed she could respect and trust, someone who enforces a discipline that helps her be stronger, builds her confidence, both in herself as a person and as a slave. I maintain that, continue to draw that with consistency and remaining the person she submitted to, the more she learns of Me the more she respects what she finds, the more and deeper she trusts... the deeper her submission becomes. A natural progression, falling down the rabbithole, no battle with Me... occassionaly a battle with herself, her learned responces, baggage from her past but a battle she wins because in those battles there are TWO strong people fighting on the same side, her holding My hand as I lead her through those fights. The only 'fights' between us are in the field of play, either banter or physical (Resistance play)... fairly evenly matched on the former but the latter she will never win [:D]

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