California's answer to capital punishment? (Full Version)

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Thadius -> California's answer to capital punishment? (7/2/2008 3:09:22 PM)

Here's some quick background info... http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB114290971697503763-c_Bc66XQDv_Y3oGhmny49FBuPHc_20070321.html?mod=blogs

Are the plans to desegregate the prisons in California going to lead to more deaths and violence in the already violent system?  The Californian prisons are roughly split into thirds amongst hispanics, blacks, and whites, with a slightly higher number of hispanics.  This is also how the many gangs are broken down, at least in the prisons, based on race.  California was supposed to start desegregating the inmate populations yesterday, starting at a couple of lower security facilities, and slowly ramping it up to every prison and jail in the system.  This was put on hold to allow the guards union to better understand what the new policy actually entails. 

I was just wondering what the first week of this policy in the "crazier" places are going to be like... imagine a new black inmate being introduced to his AB cellmate, or the new white inmate being moved into the cell of a member of the Black Guerilla Family.  How many deaths or injuries are going to come about because of these changes in policy?  Only time will tell.

The inmates are uneasy, the guards are uneasy, and well I am simply hoping that there will be some hidden cameras placed throughout facilities like Chino.  I would love to hear what others think about this subject.

I wish you well,
Thadius



Lockit -> RE: California's answer to capital punishment? (7/2/2008 3:20:52 PM)

Well, it is clear things haven't worked to well as they are.  Maybe a change will help in the long run.  I know it isn't the same thing by far, but I directed a shelter and I had similar issues.  I tried to get everyone to focus on things being a women's issue rather than a race issue, but always there was someone to challenge that.  But in the end, we were able to get everyone working together, enjoying one another and learning about everyone else.  I did notice more problems with those rooming within their own race group and the others making friends.  Being trapped in a room for months with each other forced them to find a way to relate and get along.

In this it will be difficult to say what will happen, but once people get to know each other and it wasn't a cross over they choose but was forced on them, maybe some difference can be made.  I am sure it is going to be tough going... but I would like to be optimistic about it.  I hope it works!



Politesub53 -> RE: California's answer to capital punishment? (7/2/2008 3:30:15 PM)

From the link you gave :

quote:

Prison systems in Texas and Oklahoma introduced policies to integrate cells in the 1990s. A 2002 study by two Dallas researchers found that Texas' new policy, rather than fueling violence, actually had the opposite effect. Violence in Texas prisons with integrated cells was slightly less likely than in facilities with segregated cells, researchers Chad Trulson, of the University of North Texas, and James Marquart, of the University of Texas, found.


Reading this then maybe its a good idea.



Vendaval -> RE: California's answer to capital punishment? (7/2/2008 3:33:15 PM)

I would not call this an answer to capital punishment.  The previous experiences in Texas are a hopeful sign but the outcome is uncertain and could go either way.



Thadius -> RE: California's answer to capital punishment? (7/2/2008 3:35:32 PM)

Yeah, I guess that is just it.  I do agree that in the long term it will probably be easier to control the chaos, at least from a management point of view.  The fact is that just because it worked someplace else, doesn't mean it will work at places where it is so engrained in the very fabric of the place, like San Quentin.

I hope for the best, but have concerns about the short term consequences that are likely to come about.



Sequence -> RE: California's answer to capital punishment? (7/2/2008 3:35:57 PM)

With this thread title, are you implying that the California prison system would be effectively condemning some of these prisonners to death? You may be right, but what an indictment on a civilised society that the situation is such to begin with... Perhaps it would be a good idea to rethink sentencing policy altogether, especially for non-violent offenders.



Thadius -> RE: California's answer to capital punishment? (7/2/2008 3:41:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sequence

With this thread title, are you implying that the California prison system would be effectively condemning some of these prisonners to death? You may be right, but what an indictment on a civilised society that the situation is such to begin with... Perhaps it would be a good idea to rethink sentencing policy altogether, especially for non-violent offenders.


That is exactly what I was implying.  That even with the good intentions behind it, that they may be condemning some to death.  It is a sad reflection on what our prisons have become, and perhaps us as a society.

I do tend to agree with the notion that non-violent crimes should probably be dealt with in other ways, not locking them up and throwing away the key.  There has to be some sort of penalty paid to society, but then we get into all of the "social experiments", and whether or not the punishment fits the crime.  I would say one size does not fit all, especially in this case.



Politesub53 -> RE: California's answer to capital punishment? (7/2/2008 3:50:24 PM)

I dont think the problem inside prisons will be solved, without tackling the problems outside prisons. Although there isnt segregation in the UK, at least officially, we still have the gang culture problems inside jails.



DomAviator -> RE: California's answer to capital punishment? (7/2/2008 4:06:20 PM)

We desegregate the prisons and jails here in Texas. For example that Katrina Refugee who killed his two kids on Fathers Day, burned the bodies, and dumped them on the railroad tracks, then made the police drain a pond 2 miles away while he laughed about them looking in the wrong place is reportedly bunking with the boys from the Arayan Brotherhood. [:D] Segregation is wrong, and sometimes certain inmates need to spend quality time with members of another group. For example, say a Crip lays hands upon a CO. Well thats because of his narrow minded view on life, so he will get put in a nice pod with some Bloods to expose him to different viewpoints and belief systems...[:D] 



Bethnai -> RE: California's answer to capital punishment? (7/2/2008 5:34:39 PM)

I wonder if it might work.  I have heard that if your not in a gang when you enter, you will be.  I think that may be age dependent as well.  For those that aren't it might take away the pressure. For those that have been blessed in before entering, it might take away the sense of obligation.  I see many that its all good at 13 or 14 and cool and then can't figure out how to get out.  It might be able to create a necessary distance.

On the other hand, if they insist on running skeleton crews, its just a matter of time.



Nosathro -> RE: California's answer to capital punishment? (7/2/2008 9:35:37 PM)

Having worked inside the California Prisons system I would be hard pressed to say this would work.  Most Southern Prisons White and Latin Gangs have teamed up against Black Gangs and in the in the North White and Black Gangs are against Latin Gangs.  Oh last I heard the Men's Prison at Chino has been on lock down..in fact most California Prisons are on lock down.
 
In my time I was attending a class on the Prison Gang problem.  I watched a video taken at Pelican Bay Prison the worst prison.  The Latin gangs attacked members of a black gang in the yard..and to say the least Hell broke out.  The Guards could not seperate them, tear gas had no effect,  and I could hear orders being issued to open fire, I could see bodies being hit by gun fire and still they kept fighting.....the video lasted 15 minutes...I was told that the actual fight was finally broken up after some 35 - 40 minutes.  That is why I don't think it will work.
 
Oh, an article in a local paper today...one more reason why California should abolish the Death Penalty..to expensive.  We have over 600 inmate waiting to be excuted..chances are they die in prison of old age before their date is set.



Bethnai -> RE: California's answer to capital punishment? (7/2/2008 9:43:37 PM)

But it isn't that hard to be on lock down, lock down can occur because of lack of staff. 

Let me ask you this, is lack of staff due to budgeting, or lack of applicants? Is there a high turn over rate and did you find that people were being hired even if they shouldn't have been?

AND, in your opinion did you see a noticable difference in age groups?



DomAviator -> RE: California's answer to capital punishment? (7/2/2008 10:01:02 PM)

Prison is supposed to be a place for suffering and penitence. By its very definition a penitentiary is :





1.
a place for imprisonment, reformatory discipline, or punishment, esp. a prison maintained in the U.S. by a state or the federal government for serious offenders.

Anything they can do to make it more anguish filled is OK in my book. With the recidivisim rates, they are lost anyway....  Any inmate that is shanked in the yard is one that I wont have to shoot in my living room or that our nearby Pasadena PD wont have to beat to death and that the taxpayers wont have to fund five, six., eight, twenty trials and appeals etc for...  How many innocent lives have been lost to repeat offenders? How much property has been stolen or destroyed by repeat offenders?

The only good gang member is a dead gang member so this is a fantastic idea. What I would do is pull the guards out of the cell block. No guards at all inside the facility put them all in the towers and on the wall. What happens inside the walls happens, and anyone trying to go over the wall gets shot. Let them kill each other, anybody who doesnt make it out wont be a repeat offender.



Bethnai -> RE: California's answer to capital punishment? (7/2/2008 10:04:29 PM)

Edited for: I'll pick any CO's brain if humanly possible.



Thadius -> RE: California's answer to capital punishment? (7/2/2008 10:13:05 PM)

Evening DA,

That sounds like an idea I had for a reality tv show.  Train the various gang members to use different weapons, put them in a warehouse with rivals, and film.  The surviving members, get one month of not having to compete.  The commercial revenues alone would help pay for housing and other expenses. 

Ah, but that is another subject for another time.

Have a great night,
Thadius



DomAviator -> RE: California's answer to capital punishment? (7/2/2008 10:29:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Evening DA,

That sounds like an idea I had for a reality tv show.  Train the various gang members to use different weapons, put them in a warehouse with rivals, and film.  The surviving members, get one month of not having to compete.  The commercial revenues alone would help pay for housing and other expenses. 


Great idea except for the training them to use weapons... Shit your average 12 year old gang member could train the Navy SEALs and Green Berets on how to make and use weapons... A friend of mine works for the Sherrifs Dept and youd be amazed what they take out of the jail. Sharpened toothbrushes, a pull tab from a soda can sharpened into a slashing blade, a  pencil "fire polished" to a spear point, you name it. Get this, she told me they had one guy injure a Deputy with a sock full of shit. This fucker bought Doritos at the commissary, and cut back on his fluid intake till he essentially shit out "rocks" of tortilla chips which he then dried and put in a sock to use as a mace.... If they showed 1/100th of the ingenuity they show making weapons and drugs from every day items on legitimate endeavors they could be NASA Engineers... LOL

Id LOVE to see a show along the lines of "The Running Man" .... If Direct Tv could put that out as a premium package I would buy it... LOL



Thadius -> RE: California's answer to capital punishment? (7/2/2008 10:35:24 PM)

The reason I mentioned weapons training is because I would also allow firearms... The idea behind the weapons training is so that if and when the little punk gets out, at least his aim will be better and thus cut down on some of the innocents that get killed by trying to throw bullets in a general direction. 

I do agree with you about the benefits that would occur if that resourcefulness were put to solving other needs.



Bethnai -> RE: California's answer to capital punishment? (7/2/2008 11:04:43 PM)

You can make a shank out of toilet paper. Depending on the age of the facility you can just wait for the nails ot fall out of somewhere, like light fixtures.

A 12 year old is still a damn 12 year old.



Thadius -> RE: California's answer to capital punishment? (7/2/2008 11:08:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bethnai

You can make a shank out of toilet paper. Depending on the age of the facility you can just wait for the nails ot fall out of somewhere, like light fixtures.

A 12 year old is still a damn 12 year old.


I beg to differ, there is a huge difference between a 12 year old that is out "pulling the trigger" and slinging rock, and one that is still in school (trying to learn) and applying themselves towards becoming a productive member of society.  Even if that difference is simply in parenting, although I suppose there is much more to it.



DomAviator -> RE: California's answer to capital punishment? (7/2/2008 11:48:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bethnai
A 12 year old is still a damn 12 year old.


A couple of weeks ago, within the past month a cop in Pasadena TX had to repeatedly shoot a 13 year old gang member who was shooting up the neighborhood and who turned on him with the weapon. That little cherub could have killed someone, including the cop.

My exwife, who I am none too fond of, was a school teacher. I was looking through one of her teacher magazines on time and found a chilling fact - in New York state where we lived at the time, a school teacher was 4 times more likely to be assualted on the job than a prison guard!  

Kids are just as deadly or dangerous as anyone else... You dont have to be 18 to be a dangerous felon!



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