RE: Are Women in D/s Harder on Each Other Than Vanilla Women?

RE: Are Women in D/s Harder on Each Other Than Vanilla Women? (Full Version)

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Aileen1968 -> RE: Are Women in D/s Harder on Each Other Than Vanilla Women? (7/4/2008 5:28:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: candystripper Yes, I know -- some of the people reading this believe they have the support of many people, female and male, in D/s. Some actually may have this support in real life. Sometimes I think many women in D/s -- especially s-types -- have reverted to some high school in the 1950's where we all try and belong to the 'popular crowd'. There also seems to be a heightened fear than another s-type will 'run off with your Dom'. I haven't seen this attitude among my vanilla girlfriends, gay or straight, ever. Most vanilla women I'm close to would never harm another woman -- even one they did not know -- just to get a man. candystripper You sound bitter and you project that bitterness on what you see around you. You also sound jealous of normal relationship dynamics as if you've never been able to have one...i.e. friendships.

julietsierra -> RE: Are Women in D/s Harder on Each Other Than Vanilla Women? (7/4/2008 5:30:53 AM)
What I find interesting is the propensity of people to proclaim that submissive women who actually have developed friendships are somehow "cliquy" as if friendships between submissives is a bad thing. We have a group of approximately 12 submissive women who get together monthly to play the oh-so-submissive game of pokeno. It was my idea. I used to play it with a group of 12 vanilla women (omg... and they were from CHURCH) years ago. We don't invite women who might be dominants because many of us are needing permission to attend and keeping it a group of submissive women tends to make getting that permission much more likely. We don't invite the men who are submissive for the same reason. So sue us. We have a blast. And through this game we have developed some real tight friendships. And yet, right there on the invitation it says "we support each other, but we are not a support group." (translation: leave your drama at the door.) Individual members of our group have been through a lot (divorce, medical issues, family problems - just to name a few) and we're there for each other in varying degrees - most often determined by the happenings in other people's lives. Some of us have difficulties with that, some don't, but again, while we can support each other, we are not a support group Now, you might be able to proclaim that we're cliquish because we only invite 12 to this game. But see, those people who like to proclaim things without knowing things would be again, talking out of their hat. We invite only 12 because the game comes with only 12 cards and there are only 12 months of the year. (The location of where we play changes to a different woman's home each month and well, since no one's come up with more than 12 months... that's where we are.) Because there are only 12 women in this group and because we're being invited to each other's homes, we're very careful as to who gets invited. However, evidently, since we're female, instead of friendships, we have a clique. And because of that, we're engaging in high school behavior. PLEASE juliet

Focus50 -> RE: Are Women in D/s Harder on Each Other Than Vanilla Women? (7/4/2008 5:40:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: candystripper Yes, I know -- some of the people reading this believe they have the support of many people, female and male, in D/s. Some actually may have this support in real life. Sometimes I think many women in D/s -- especially s-types -- have reverted to some high school in the 1950's where we all try and belong to the 'popular crowd'. There also seems to be a heightened fear than another s-type will 'run off with your Dom'. I haven't seen this attitude among my vanilla girlfriends, gay or straight, ever. Most vanilla women I'm close to would never harm another woman -- even one they did not know -- just to get a man. candystripper You've only gotta see a good sort showing just a little too much flesh in a crowded room to know that it's women in general who are harder on other women, not the men.... But vanilla vs D/s? I don't actually know as there's not a lot D/s orientated functions in my part of the world but it is my experience that people are much the same everywhere. Which might explain why many fem/subs are more wary of Dommes than Doms in general - excluding the male date-rapists, misogynists and axe-murderers in general.... Focus.

eyesopened -> RE: Are Women in D/s Harder on Each Other Than Vanilla Women? (7/4/2008 5:41:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: candystripper Sometimes I think many women in D/s -- especially s-types -- have reverted to some high school in the 1950's where we all try and belong to the 'popular crowd'. There also seems to be a heightened fear than another s-type will 'run off with your Dom'. I haven't seen this attitude among my vanilla girlfriends, gay or straight, ever. Most vanilla women I'm close to would never harm another woman -- even one they did not know -- just to get a man. candystripper i have never found an "s-type" in real life to ever consider harming another just to get a man. i have heard "vanilla" women discussing their 'right' to date marrieds because in their words "if he's out looking, obviously his wife isn't taking care of him at home." Those women i overheard are not friends of mine but i was a little shocked at the conversation. People are people. There is a cross-section of society in D/s so there's bound to be roughly the same percentage of catty females in BDSM as there is anywhere else. It amazes me how some folks think BDSM is somehow made up of anything other than ordinary people.

DiurnalVampire -> RE: Are Women in D/s Harder on Each Other Than Vanilla Women? (7/4/2008 5:42:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: candystrippe I haven't seen this attitude among my vanilla girlfriends, gay or straight, ever. Most vanilla women I'm close to would never harm another woman -- even one they did not know -- just to get a man. candystripper Never. Ever. I find that hard to believe. I cant imagine anyone growing up who didnt have a single friend who stole someone elses boyfriend. I cant imagine a group of people where not a single one was jealous of another, concerned about their partners (within the group or from an outside party) leaving them for some reasonand withuot any cheating at all. Your friends might have been better at hiding this all, but I gaurantee it was there somewhere. Online, its foolish to think there is a support netwrk of strangers just because they have the same kink as you. Many of us have very good real life friends, wit the same or different kinks, but it isnt something I would ever expect of a complete stranger just becasue we have the same interests. Just like I wouldnt expect a support group of martial artists jutst because I am a black belt. There wil be some who love me for it and others who want nothing more than to kick my ass. There are always those who covet, they covet your relationships, they covet your partners, they covet all the things in your life. When you know what you have is desired by others, you worry about it sometimes. I have noticed far more destructive interference in vanilla jealousy and homewrecking than I have in submissive, but it happens in both. It happens in Dominants trying to steal one another's subs, subs trying to steal one another's Doms, men trying to steal one another's women and women trying to steal one anothers men. Welcome to the world of supply and demand where someone taken is thought to be of a superior quality than someone single becasue they have already proven their worth , and therefor somewhat more desireable in the eyes of some. It isnt just here its everywhere. DV PS It doesnt surprise me that your gay girlfriends wouldnt fight tooth and nail for a man, they didnt wat them. However, how vicious were they willing to be to get the girl they wanted? I've been friends with some very ruthless lesbians, especially those interested in straight women or bi women already with a man.

Lashra -> RE: Are Women in D/s Harder on Each Other Than Vanilla Women? (7/4/2008 5:55:54 AM)
I work with men all day long, I own a construction company and I don't have many female friends. The reason for this is I'm just not into the things that most women are. Talking about sewing, recipes and the latest most expensive handbag does nothing for me. I've noted cattiness on both the vanilla and D/s side, also I've noted some real sweethearts. It depends upon the woman as we are all as unique as snowflakes. Also I think it depends upon your D/s orientation as to how another woman treats you. I've noted that a few sub fems do not seem to care for Dominant females for whatever reason. My gut tells me that they feel threatened for some reason but whatever the reason I don't let it bother me as their view of me have no effect upon my life. ~Lashra

slaveluci -> RE: Are Women in D/s Harder on Each Other Than Vanilla Women? (7/4/2008 6:09:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lashra I've noted cattiness on both the vanilla and D/s side Yeah, like right here....... quote: I've noted that a few sub fems do not seem to care for Dominant females for whatever reason. My gut tells me that they feel threatened for some reason There could be lots of other reasons besides feeling "threatened," ya know. One possibility is that they may not care for different dominant women for different reasons. Those particular dominant women may be overbearing pains-in-the-ass. Really hard to say. Being "threatened" is far from the only possibility. Just sayin'............luci

sirsholly -> RE: Are Women in D/s Harder on Each Other Than Vanilla Women? (7/4/2008 6:09:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark quote: Yes...friendships happen, and what may appear to be "cliques" are formed. Friends support each other, be they in the BDSM lifestyle or in the vanilla world. They trust each other, do not judge each other and often apply the rule that TWO ears and ONE mouth means you listen twice as much as you speak. They respect and honor each others relationships and would in no way attempt to "run off" with anothers partner. In my world, which may be obviously different to yours, as a friend, I would NOT support another friend if I disagreedwith them or felt their actions to be unhealthy. I don't believe in blanket statements of 'friends support friends' - because friends don't do that blindly and lie - because that way they aren't a friend. in this case...thank goodness our worlds differ!! Do i AGREE with a friend who is making a bad decision? Of course not..and i would be very clear in telling them so. Would i not support a friend because i did not agree with them? You must be kidding!! That is a 'my way or the highway' outlook. I may not agree with the decisions my friends make...but to withdrawl support of them is not a sign of a true friend.

RCdc -> RE: Are Women in D/s Harder on Each Other Than Vanilla Women? (7/4/2008 6:30:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirsholly in this case...thank goodness our worlds differ!! Absolutely. I could not agree more. quote: Do i AGREE with a friend who is making a bad decision? Of course not..and i would be very clear in telling them so. OK. quote: Would i not support a friend because i did not agree with them? You must be kidding!! That is a 'my way or the highway' outlook. I may not agree with the decisions my friends make...but to withdrawl support of them is not a sign of a true friend. Then it is fortunate you and I aren't 'friends'. Maybe to you, it's a my way or the highway' thang - it's not mine. If someone is doing something I cannot support - say for examples - drinking to excess or singling out and persecuting a single person - and they show no sign of wishing to alter their drinking for example - then I won't associate with them whilst they are in that state - it supports and is nothing more than a crutch. Would I be there should they need to get through therapy or drying out? Absolutely. But be with them whilst they destroy themselves or be a part of a cackling crowd because of bias? - no. the.dark.

corsetgirl -> RE: Are Women in D/s Harder on Each Other Than Vanilla Women? (7/4/2008 6:34:01 AM)
I believe this is the personality behind the females rather than whether they are vanilla or the s-types. There are some females who can be very manipulative and I had experienced that in high school with a so-called friend. During that time, she was very manipulative but that was 30 years ago. She is now married and has settled down. We are still friends because I cannot hold a grudge and that was the usual adolescent drama.

kyraofMists -> RE: Are Women in D/s Harder on Each Other Than Vanilla Women? (7/4/2008 6:37:52 AM)
I think I understand what dark is saying and I have to agree with her. Being there for the person when the shit hits the fan and supporting their actions/opinions is not the same thing. If someone wanted me to give blanket support to their actions and opinions then they would be asking me to not be who I am. I am not a rubber stamp person and have had what I thought were friendships end because they didn't like that I expressed my objections to their thoughts and actions. Being there for a friend is not the same thing as supporting opinions or actions that I think are unhealthy. If someone only wants a friend to rubber stamp what they do, then we are not compatible as friends. For me, it is more important to be true to who I am and someone who doesn't understand that and expects something different of me, isn't someone I want to be friends with. Knight's Kyra *editted to add that dark explained it much better than me and it is very much how I want me friends to be.

LaTigresse -> RE: Are Women in D/s Harder on Each Other Than Vanilla Women? (7/4/2008 6:39:44 AM)
Using fast reply......... Anyone that thinks this childish behaviour is limited to women is a fool. I've worked with plenty of insecure, two faced males, that have been just as nasty. They are just not as adept at covering their tracks. Unfortunately that behaviour is more acceptable in men than women by others. It is given other descriptives.

LaTigresse -> RE: Are Women in D/s Harder on Each Other Than Vanilla Women? (7/4/2008 6:46:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kyraofMists I think I understand what dark is saying and I have to agree with her. Being there for the person when the shit hits the fan and supporting their actions/opinions is not the same thing. If someone wanted me to give blanket support to their actions and opinions then they would be asking me to not be who I am. I am not a rubber stamp person and have had what I thought were friendships end because they didn't like that I expressed my objections to their thoughts and actions. Being there for a friend is not the same thing as supporting opinions or actions that I think are unhealthy. If someone only wants a friend to rubber stamp what they do, then we are not compatible as friends. For me, it is more important to be true to who I am and someone who doesn't understand that and expects something different of me, isn't someone I want to be friends with. Knight's Kyra *editted to add that dark explained it much better than me and it is very much how I want me friends to be. Oh wow does this resonate with me. Far too many people take a critique, or lack of approval, on a specific action as a lack of support of the person. This is something I struggle with, with my siblings. They just do not get that, just because I do not like the things they like, or think something they are doing is the right thing, that I am not tearing them down. It is insecurity and something that is very difficult to deal with.

ElizabethAnne -> RE: Are Women in D/s Harder on Each Other Than Vanilla Women? (7/4/2008 6:48:53 AM)
Howdy Folks, This caught my eye as it scrolled by, I normally don't post over here, but I wanted to give an answer from a Gorean perspective. I hold other Gorean women to higher standards than I do any other type of woman, D/s, vanilla, ect. I hold them to certain standards if they are slave, and other standards if they are free. My expectations and perception of a person ...man or woman changes if they tell me they believe in the Gorean philosophy, and live it to the best of their ability. I am not attempting to start any type of flaming war, as everyone else that has posted here, this is MY opinion and mine only. For any American reading this today, Happy 4th!!!! Let the fireworks explode safely today. Take care, Elizabeth

JstAnotherSub -> RE: Are Women in D/s Harder on Each Other Than Vanilla Women? (7/4/2008 7:01:02 AM)
~fr~ some women are sweet, some are bitches, some are open and honest, some are conniving as hell. and this would be fact whether in a group of subs, dommes, lawyers, wal mart greeters, nurses, tattoo artists, lunchladies, actresses, on and on and on...... i dont understand why this is news to you candy......we all have the choice to choose which type we hang out with......how we interact with each group, if we choose to interact with them at all..... i will say that, in my experience, when i was in a bitchy mode, i attracted the same. once i got divorced, and spent a few years getting to know me, and love me, the type of person i attracted changed also. i just do not understand why you are so bothered with the actions of others......folks are folks.....you can not change them, only how you react to them.

soul2share -> RE: Are Women in D/s Harder on Each Other Than Vanilla Women? (7/4/2008 7:12:09 AM)
Women in the lifestyle are no different than women anywhere else. That's cuz, um, gee....we're HUMAN! And as far as the Doms are concerned..if they are gonna cheat, they are gonna cheat...just like vanilla men do......also because they too are HUMAN! Living the lifestyle of BDSM does not make us a cut above, a special group of people or separate us from the rest of the human race. I don't know what your obsession is with lumping women together as a group, but I am NOT part of any group. Never have been, never will be. I, like most others here, am a single individual perfectly capable of "holding on to my man", and not dealing in "high-school" antics. As far as submissive women, we are some of the strongest people you'll meet......the typical subs have high powered, Type A personalities with careers to match. And that's just based on my observation in talking to both doms and other subs. Others may have found it different. I'm also part of the group with few female friends.......i have one or two that I can call my best friends, but for the most part, I don't have much in common with the average female. They usually find me bossy, and domineering.....catch me at work, and you wouldn't believe the difference in me. The ones I do cherish are just like me....each and every one of them! As far as cliques here on CM....well, maybe it's just my outlook, or the fact that I have some time on the block under my belt, but i don't see it. The only time I've ever gotten a snarky message was actually from a Dom, and there were a couple of subs, both male and female, that stepped in and called him out on it. When I post or talk to people, I don't do it so much from a sub's position......I go with my own opinions and gut feelings...none of which are any different now than they were 3 1/2 years ago when I discoverd that I wasn't the only person out there with the traits that make me up as both a person and a sub. I love getting to know folks, either thru e-mails or by lurking, then joining in on the boards. Attitude is everything, and I know from some of your posts that I have taken the time to read, yours isn't always the greatest.....it's not a slam, so put your hackles down...it's just an observation. I'm much harder on myself than I would be with any other female. It's just part of my make-up, and won't change....when dealing with others, I start out with no expectations, then, I'm never disappointed. That doesn't mean that I can't be a catty bitch either.....cross me on a wrong day, and I'm liable to chew you up and spit you out. Fortunately, that doesn't happen very often, and if it does, well, then, ya had it coming! And I don't care about big "I" and little "i"....just means I'm feeling lazy while typing.....

sirsholly -> RE: Are Women in D/s Harder on Each Other Than Vanilla Women? (7/4/2008 7:22:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark If someone is doing something I cannot support - say for examples - drinking to excess .... and they show no sign of wishing to alter their drinking for example - then I won't associate with them whilst they are in that state - it supports and is nothing more than a crutch. Would I be there should they need to get through therapy or drying out? Absolutely. But be with them whilst they destroy themselves or be a part of a cackling crowd because of bias? - no. the.dark. i do not...now or ever...feel that a friendship can end (as per your example: secondary to excessive drinking) then resume once the subject corrects the issue that offends you (goes into rehab/therapy). Friendship is not something that can be taken and then given back with a change in behavior. If i were the one struggling with an alcohol issue, refusing therapy/rehab, and you dropped out of my life i would say that is your right. But...try to resume the friendship once i recovered and you would be greeted with two words...and they would not be Merry Christmas.

BRNaughtyAngel -> RE: Are Women in D/s Harder on Each Other Than Vanilla Women? (7/4/2008 7:24:25 AM)
I don't have girlfriends, vanilla, submissive, dominant or any other label. I don't care much for being around or socializing with most women, and I'm very picky about the ones I do. But it's not out of some delusional high schoolish paranoia about the popular crowd or someone stealing my man. Honestly, I do not understand the negativity and paranoia that runs through so many of your threads, especially when it appears that the majority of it is based purely on fantasy rather than real situations. If a real person faced as many issues in their life and their relationships as you address in your various threads, I'd have to wonder if they were capable of taking care of themselves at all. Or maybe I'm just expecting too much from supposedly stable adults? [sm=dunno.gif]

WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Are Women in D/s Harder on Each Other Than Vanilla Women? (7/4/2008 7:30:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: candystripper Yes, I know -- some of the people reading this believe they have the support of many people, female and male, in D/s. Some actually may have this support in real life. Sometimes I think many women in D/s -- especially s-types -- have reverted to some high school in the 1950's where we all try and belong to the 'popular crowd'. There also seems to be a heightened fear than another s-type will 'run off with your Dom'. I haven't seen this attitude among my vanilla girlfriends, gay or straight, ever. Most vanilla women I'm close to would never harm another woman -- even one they did not know -- just to get a man. candystripper Dear Candystripper, I'm trying to pull all three suppositions together into a cohesive thought and am having some difficulty. You refer to hypotheticals from your perspective, rather than specifics which makes it hard to grasp your actual meaning. Mostly because I do not share your perspective. Not really. You have posted numerous times making references to cliques, in-crowds, alleged friendships. I'm uncertain where the need comes from to antagonize others. Truth is, I quit posting to your posts for several reasons. Mostly because I find it sad to see someone ganged up on, and sad because that person keeps poking sticks at the mob and sticking their tongue out and chanting neener neener can't catch me. I find that rather in line with how you are picturing the cliques. Somewhat childish and needlessly adversarial. The attitude you reference in your final paragraph isn't surprising. There are only so many personality types and combination of personality types. What I believe you are seeing is your perception of human nature, in conjuction and in response to you own actions. Cause and effect, for the most part. I quit posting to your threads, this post aside, because I have begun to see a pattern of pig-tail pulling, and name calling, and tongue poking and its not attractive nor is it constructive. As I stated moments ago, there are only so many personality types. Some prefer to relinquish or accept authority, some like kinky sex, some don't. But Authority Dynamic/BDSM dynamic has nothing to do with how a person acts online or off. Nor does it have anything to do with the level of security or insecurity an individual has. We all make choices, to be decent or to respond indecently. To instigate negative responses, for whatever reason through barely veiled verbal slights, or not to. I hate to see someone ganged up on, and I hate to see a continued pattern of self-inflicting harm for the sake of attention. It really is very disconcerting to witness. Respectfully Winsome

mistoferin -> RE: Are Women in D/s Harder on Each Other Than Vanilla Women? (7/4/2008 7:41:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirsholly quote: ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark If someone is doing something I cannot support - say for examples - drinking to excess .... and they show no sign of wishing to alter their drinking for example - then I won't associate with them whilst they are in that state - it supports and is nothing more than a crutch. Would I be there should they need to get through therapy or drying out? Absolutely. But be with them whilst they destroy themselves or be a part of a cackling crowd because of bias? - no. the.dark. i do not...now or ever...feel that a friendship can end (as per your example: secondary to excessive drinking) then resume once the subject corrects the issue that offends you (goes into rehab/therapy). Friendship is not something that can be taken and then given back with a change in behavior. If i were the one struggling with an alcohol issue, refusing therapy/rehab, and you dropped out of my life i would say that is your right. But...try to resume the friendship once i recovered and you would be greeted with two words...and they would not be Merry Christmas. I don't think that that was at all what dark was saying. It's not about ending friendship...it's about being strong enough to say "I can not support you in "this". I have done it myself, both with a friend who is an alcoholic and with a friend that was having an affair. "I love you dearly but I can not support you in this". I am still very good friends with both of them. My alcoholic girlfriend used to come by in the middle of the night, shit faced drunk and being a total ass, pounding on the door waking up my husband and children...usually crying her eyes out. I finally had to tell her that she could NOT come to my house drinking...period. My cheating girlfriend wanted to use me as a cover story for her trysts. Sorry but I'm not going to lie for anyone.

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