RE: Want bullshit ? Do not read this (Full Version)

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Alumbrado -> RE: Want bullshit ? Do not read this (7/4/2008 1:25:49 PM)

Pride has a few negative connotations, and that coupled with the fact that no one has actually accomplished anything to achieve their status as a native of their birth country, makes it a notion that I don't particularly embrace for myself.

But I suppose one can be forgiven for a certain sense of relief that they weren't born somewhere else.[;)]



caitlyn -> RE: Want bullshit ? Do not read this (7/4/2008 1:32:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
In England, you can walk 5 miles down the road and the people will speak with a completely different accent.....can the same be said for the US?....as said, local identity is everything here.


Lets throw out the "walk 5 miles" and insert "drive to the next town over" for a more level comparison, and the answer will be yes ... in many parts of the country. Anyone that has ever been to San Antonio, and Austin Texas ... just a 50 minute drive apart ... might even think they are in different countries. Go to any southern city and make a comparison with a suburb just ten miles away, and you might just feel the same.



Alumbrado -> RE: Want bullshit ? Do not read this (7/4/2008 1:35:57 PM)

quote:

In England, you can walk 5 miles down the road and the people will speak with a completely different accent.....can the same be said for the US?....


5 miles?  Try 5 blocks... ever heard of Guineamen? Geechees? New York City? Louisiana? 

quote:

Sit yourself down, son, and I'll tell you all about it.........it ain't what you think.


If you are going to start with the bit about Lord Cornwallis being undefeated, save it ( and yes, I've been told exactly that by more than one product of the British educational system).

If you wanted to start with John Hawkins, and follow that money up through say, the Opium Wars, go for it.



hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: Want bullshit ? Do not read this (7/4/2008 2:02:55 PM)

I don't celebrate 99% of the holidays in this country.  I certainly don't celebrate the various Accepted and Nationalized Relgious holidays.  I'm a practicing pagan, not a Christian, and as such have little use for the Christanized versions of holidays.  Others are welcome to celebrate those particular versions as they see fit, and I have no issue (in general) with folks doing so - as long as they leave me in peace to do the same with *my holidays.  I do, however, feel that it's both wrong and inherantly unconstitutional (seperation of church and state) to make religious holidays of ANY type into national holidays as well.  If those holidays practiced by Christian religions are going to be turned into federally sanctioned, non working, non banking holidays - then make the religious holidays of ALL religions such, period.  If you're not willing to do that, then NONE of them should be that way or it goes against the very basis of Seperating the two intities.  When I celebrate religious holidays of My beliefs, I do so privately and without fanfare - without even other people around, with the possible exception of one or two extremely close friends who share many of the same practices.  As for the few non-religion centered national  holidays we have - I don't celebrate most of Them, either, simply because I see them as little more than an excuse to throw a steak on the grill and do some partying with friends.  I don't Need excuses to do that - if I wanna drink a few beers and throw some steaks on the grill with my buddies, I will regardless of what day of the year it is.
 
I celebrate my "new year" at the same time that I celebrate the harvest - for Samhain.  That's Halloween to the rest of yall - but without the candy, sending the kids out to play dress up, and decorations.  Just a bonfire, a bit of quiet ritual, and a toast to those who have passed during the previous year.   If the kids wanna play dress up, why wait for a particular day?  And they sure as shit don't need the overload of heavily processed over priced tooth decay and excess weight in a bag.  Besides, I celebrate it at the full moon closest to the Equinox, not on a specific calander date.  (Though I DO admit to playing a bit of "dress up" myself on Halloween - it's about the only time of year I can go outside my own house and show my True Colors without getting lynched here in the buckle of the bible belt.)
 
Valentine's and Easter?  Nope.  Ludgnasa at February's full moon, for the lambing/foaling and it's attendant rebirth connotations as early spring begins.  Beltain and it's fertillity connotations for late spring/early summer planting during the full moon closest to Spring Equinox.  Easter is actually a usurpation of a fertility/rebirth holiday amongst various pagan peoples, the name even derived from a Norse fertility goddess (Oestre) along with her eggs and rabbits (both fertility symbols.)  I definately don't need a Particular Day of the Year (like Valentine's) to celebrate love or do something nice for my partner, especially not cliche filled cards, over processed candy, guilt induced over priced flowers, or wild sexcapades.  When I have a partner, he gets the sexcapades regardless of what time of year it is - or what time of Day, for that matter!  Why wait to make him happy with an extra blow job?
 
Memorial day - yes, in honor of the memory of those who've given their lives for their beliefs, and to insure that I continue to have the right to celebrate MY religious holidays rather than Their religious holidays. 
Flag day - yes, but only because it's also my birthday, and I Always celebrate my birthday with a trip to the lake and a huge drunk, followed rapidly by Summer Solstice towards the end of June to celebrate the longest day of the year. 
President's day? No - just one of those days when I simply can't get any banking done - it's what they Did that matters, and I can honor that without a national holiday. 
Not even gonna comment on Martin Luther King day - I don't care to deal with the diatribes I know would quickly follow. 
Independance day? Just another day of the month that I can't get any banking done.  Nor can I shoot off fireworks or anything of that nature.  It's illegal in my area (to much risk of accidental fires and/or injuries, according to the powers that be) - which means if I want to see a fireworks display, I have to pay through the nose to go to one of the sanctioned, certified, approved, regulated, condoned "public" displays and then not only pay to get in, but then pay way to much to buy flat beer or bottled water or cola that I shoulda been allowed to take for myself from home - only you're not Allowed to bring your own to such venues, as it would cut down on the massive profitability of such. 
Let's see... what else.. oh yeah. Labor Day.  WTF?  I never really understood this one, and as a kid I Hated Labor Day - it signaled the return of the school year and nothing more, as far as I was concerned.  Granted, now that I'm a parent myself, I feel a lil differently about That aspect of it - but I also strongly endorse a school year that lasts 11.5 months!  Thanksgiving - no, because I remember far to well what happened to the Tribes after welcoming white settlers to this particular piece of dirt. And since I celebrate the harvest at the same time as the new year - with Samhain - I have no need to hold a Second (and way late) harvest celebration. 
 
What does that leave?  Oh yeah, Christmas and New Year's Eve.  Another of those usurped holidays, like Easter is.  The symbolism is all pagan in nature, and various forms of Yule celebration were in place long before Christianity was present in any of the countries that the majority of the symbolism is taken from.  Yule has long been a holiday associated with the birth of the Sun (not son) - and set at Midwinter/Winter Solstice due to it being the Shortest day of the year.  If you do a bit of research concerning various Sun gods, Winter Solstice celebrations, etc, you'll find that there have been a plethora of various sun gods "born" at that point in time, according to their relative mythologies, the vast majority of them Pre-Dating the "birth" of the Judeo-Christian  messiah.  I celebrate Yule at the Solstice, not on the 25th, and since New Year's Eve has already passed by then for me - it's not much of a holiday as far as I'm concerned.



opposingtwilight -> RE: Want bullshit ? Do not read this (7/4/2008 2:21:17 PM)

T's post smacked of one sort of angst and yours smacks of another. As if you're the -only- freakin Pagan on CM or something. Sheesh.

What exactly did this rant against "Christianized" holidays have to do with the OP? I don't get it, personally.

As for the OP, I won't say to love it or leave it. I've gotten that line myself when I voiced an opposing opinion about our country's current state of affairs. However, intentionally coming to an online forum and saying things just to piss people off doesn't prove or change anything.

So, while I'm with you on some of what you said I'm also with camile and a few others as well.

I'm not celebrating in the traditional way today but I can't help feeling a sense of awe when I think about the origin of "Independence Day" and I guess thats celebration enough for now.



hizgeorgiapeach -> RE: Want bullshit ? Do not read this (7/4/2008 3:29:43 PM)

No, I'm hardly the only pagan on CM.  If I were, I would be in a severe state of shock.  The purpose for commenting on a couple of the religious holidays specifically was 2 fold - for clarification of the often misunderstood underlying origins, and to point out that they are Religious by nature and as such have No place as National holidays in a nation that Specifically and Expressly seperates religion and politics.  Seperation of the two is a primary principal in our country's very founding.  Remember those?  The Principals upon which we Fought for Independance from another country?  A country which, while it may not be so now, was a country that had gone through Generations of turmoil based on State Sanctioned (or even Mandated) Religion.
 
Quite simply, all of our holidays in this country - both of a religious And non-religious nature - are overly commercialized and pretty much meaningless.  ALL of them.  When they originated, perhaps they held some meaning, but that time has long since passed and been replaced with nothing except gross profiteering.  Or did you ignore what I stated about how Commercialized the act of Celebrating this NON-religious holiday has become, that I can't go watch a fireworks display and take my own Water That's Already Paid For because it'll cut into someone's Profit on the event?  That isn't Celebrating - that's paying $2.50 for the same bottle of water I could have bought at the corner store for 79 cents, or better yet have not paid for at all and simply put a bit of tap water into a jug to take with me that's Already going to get paid for as part of my monthly water bill.  And in the name of What, per chance?  Safety?  If a sealed bottle of water from the corner store isn't safe for me to carry in with me, it's not safe for me the Rest of the year Either, and they need to worry about that before worrying that I'm going to shoot off a banned firecracker in the middle of a neighborhood street.  Same can be said about a bottle of water filled out of my own tap at home - I'm the one drinking it, and if my tap water isn't safe for me to drink, the city had Best be spending my tax dollars on getting that Problem fixed, not on hiring someone to put on a fireworks display that I'll Still have to pay an exorbitant fee to get into, a fee to park at, and then more fees to have something to drink while I wait for it to begin, only to have to fight my way through crowds to be able to see and then face obnoxious lines waiting to get out and go home 20 minutes later when the show is over.
 
You say you feel a sense of Awe in regards to the origins of Independance Day - does that Awe not include the Concepts which are contained within the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and Declaration of Independance?  That same Constitution and Declaration which LED to the fight for independance?  Personally, I hold the Concepts in quite a bit of Awe - and esteem as well - All of them.  Today of All days, in this country, is perhaps the Best time to remind folks of what ALL of those concepts are, not simply the ones that they personally hold dear to them, or happen to agree with or consider politically correct in Our time.  This list is by no means Complete since it only contains the rights specified in the 10 amendments originally placed there via the Bill of Rights by the same men who designed and signed the Declaration and Constitution - but I think they'll do for a start.
 
Freedom of Speech - the right to voice your opinion, even in opposition to the opinions of others or the government.  Even the right to state the Opinion that someone Else's opinion sucks dog turds through a straw. (1st amendment)
Freedom of Religion - the right to worship, or Not Worship, as we please, combined with a distinct Seperation of Church and State so that there can never Be the sort of state sanctioned religious practices or persecution that was still so fresh in the memories of those who Fought For Independance. (1st amendment)
Freedom to Assemble - the right to get together in groups without fearing that the government is going to call you criminal simply for getting together. (1st amendment)
Freedom to Sue the Government - the right to tell the government "You're Wrong, and I expect you to make good because of it." Also known as the right to Redress Grievances with the Government. (1st amendment)
Freedom to Bear Arms - the right to keep weapons, so that if a time comes that the government no longer pertains it can be forcibly overthrown if need be, rather than having the capacity to hold us all in a virtual slavery to it.  (2nd amendment)
Freedom from the Quartering of Troops - the right to say No when the government says they want you to open your home up to allow military personel or police etc, to stay there. (3rd amendment)
Freedom From Search and Seisure - the right not to simply have your things stolen from you by the government without due cause. (4th amendment)
Freedom from Double Jeapordy, Self Incrimination - the right not to testify against yourself, the right not to face trial twice for the same thing. (5th amendment)
Freedom not to have your property taken without compensation - the right to expect the government to pay you a fair price for your property if they sieze it for imminent domain or other reasons. (5th amendment)
Freedom not to be deprived of Life, jailed, or have your things taken without just cause - the right to expect Due Process to be observed. (5th amendment)
Freedom to be considered Innocent until Proven Guilty - the right not to go into court with everyone assuming you did what you're accused of. (6th amendment)
Freedom to Face your Accuser - the right not to face annonymous accusations, no wondering who it is that made a claim against you. (6th amendment) 
Freedom to be judged by a Jury of Peers - the right to have 12 folks with No Possible Ulterior Motives, No Hidden Agendas, Nothing to gain Politically or Financially, no Personal interest in your guilt or innocence, decide whether there's enough Evidence to prove you guilty after accusation. (6th amendment)
Freedom to be judged by a jury in civil suits - the right to have evidence presented, just as in a criminal case, to an impartial jury rather than just a judge if the amount is in excess of $20. (7th amendment)
Freedom from Cruel and Unusual punishments - the right to expect something that's in reasonable keeping with the crime committed, not an arbitrary death sentence for stealing a candy bar, or punching someone in the nose when they exercised their 1st amendment right of free speech and you disagreed with them. (8th amendment)
Freedom to the rights not specifically listed in the Constitution - the concept that anything that hasn't specifically been granted to the state or federal governments is considered to be held by those governed. (9th amendment and 10th amendment)
 



fluffyswitch -> RE: Want bullshit ? Do not read this (7/4/2008 3:31:46 PM)

nope not the only pagan and nope not the only pagan who holds similar views. unfortunately i find this to be one of those arguments that tend to become circular very quickly so i choose to sit out on them.



Termyn8or -> RE: Want bullshit ? Do not read this (7/4/2008 4:01:00 PM)

It goes farther than that. Saturday, not Sunday is the Judeo-Christian sabbath. Pope Constantine changed it to appease the heathens. The heathens who by the way, were mostly better at living in peace than the Christian war mongers.

By virtue of by position in my field I do not get any paid holidays. Today I would rather be making money.

I didn't really intend to piss anyone off, but if your bloodpressure gets too high, some of it might get to your brain. Every fucking holiday is a moneymaker ; for China.

My TV is twenty years old and it was not built here. Wanna know something ? Sometime in the 1980s because of weight and shipping Sony started building their 27" and larger sets here. After setting up the CRT manufacturing plant and just building chassis' they thought they were going to save money, but they didn't because more of the CRTs were so off spec they required lengthy setup procedures. Now Sonys are known for bad CRTs, they just don't hold up.

And my car is a 1989 Buick Park Avenue. There may be a few American parts in it, but I am not sure. I do not want a new car.

Telarc produced the first commercially available music CDs in this country, and they could not make a good one, they were all defective. That is until a bunch of European engineers came and taught them how to do it.

Now think back, when did you buy your first CD ? It has been that long since we have been a world leader in technology.

I love my country, and I support our troops, but I do not like the direction we are taking and that ain't about to change. We are quickly becoming a third world nation, and that is going to destroy China of course.

But when nobody has jobs at least we will need less gasoline.

Gloomy Gus, or realist ? I openly welcomed the flames with this sort of post, and was really hoping someone would come up with something good, like "Hey we did this and we did that".

So much for that idea. We are so cynical that there is a significant contingent of people who believe that the moon landings were staged. And every time they fucking lie to the people those doubters gain more credibility.

What has been built can be destroyed, and we are living proof.

We need some serious help and I don't see it coming. We need a real leader and I don't see one coming. And I ain't taking the job, no way, it is too much of a mess. And that mess is in the hearts and minds of the people.

So go blow off some fireworks.

And that is another subject in and of itself. Are you celebrating the war or the victory ? If it's the victory then there should be no reason for fireworks, which seem to be intended to replay a war going on in the distance. Can someone explain this to me ?

In my years, I have come to think that maybe it is not the victory that is celebrated, but the war itself, and I got ALOT of evidence. Forty seven years worth.

T



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