BDSM, Consent, and The Transition

BDSM, Consent, and The Transition (Full Version)

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Daddystouch -> BDSM, Consent, and The Transition (7/6/2008 12:25:22 PM)
So far as I can tell, if there is any kind of 'standard' BDSM dynamic, it would be something like this: The bottom consents, in a general sense, to be in a D/s relationship with his or her top. The terms of that relationship (or the nature of it or however you want to word it) are that the bottom does as the top says, but that there are certain limits, what we call hard limits, that the top is not to cross or the relationship could potentially end. The botto, may not actually consent to individual commands or requirements, but does consent to be in the relationship knowing that they can be forced to do things. Like most things involving people, there are endless permutations and variations but that seems to be the basic, core principle of a BDSM relationship to me, though I'm sure someone will disagree with me. In a mature BDSM relationship like that, it seems simple enough. Like any relationship, I am sure it is hard work, but relatively straight forward. I can imagine it. What I find more difficult to understand is the time between starting a relationship with someone and reaching this mature stage. Presumably two people do not simply meet and instantly enter into such an 'extreme' dynamic, there must be some kind of transition from zero control when you first meet to the kind of near absolute control you get in a developed relationship. So how does this work? I hope I'm making sense...

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: BDSM, Consent, and The Transition (7/6/2008 12:59:52 PM)
Of course there is a transition. How long that transition lasts is part of what is negotiated, (either openly or implied) through the discussion or discussions before getting into the relationship. We have a training period in our household -- six months to discover whether someone is a good fit. It is "no fault". Either party can call it quits during that six months with no fault. We also don't do anything that would cause permanent change to life, liberty, or physiology during this time, because if it ends, everyone needs to be able to leave in the condition that they arrived, with perhaps a little more knowledge and understanding, but without other permanent change. We also don't give a permanent collar until this trial period is up. I also occasionally play casually with someone. These sessions have only the briefest negotiation, while we decide what I'll be doing, and what the bottom's limits are in direct relation to what we'll be doing. I don't expect forever, and I do expect that we're both going to be forthright about anything I need to know for these casual encounters. Transition for these encounters may only last minutes. Different people handle this transition in different ways. For some, it is a lengthy process, for some it lasts moments. It's completely up to the individuals discussing the process to decide what their transition is going to look like. Calla Firestorm

wildtigress27 -> RE: BDSM, Consent, and The Transition (7/6/2008 1:19:17 PM)
How the transition happens is with time, familiarily and trust, just as in any relationship. How long it takes depends on the individuals involved, what they bring to the relationship and their commitment to each other and to the relationship as a whole. It's something that can't be rushed .... it needs to evolve as it will.

Daddystouch -> RE: BDSM, Consent, and The Transition (7/6/2008 1:21:37 PM)
I'm not so much confused about the time it takes, but as to how the relationship works during that time. Obviously it's purpose is to build trust and closeness and so on, but what might the dynamic be during that time?

Prinsexx -> RE: BDSM, Consent, and The Transition (7/6/2008 1:25:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Daddystouch What I find more difficult to understand is the time between starting a relationship with someone and reaching this mature stage. Transition can sometimes happen in a flash of light....the moment between a tender touch and the beginning of pain.......

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: BDSM, Consent, and The Transition (7/6/2008 1:30:11 PM)
It can be whatever the people involved want it to be, Daddystouch. There's no one picture for what it looks like. For our servants, their life during training and their life after training don't look that much different, except that I don't do permanent cuttings, permanent piercings, branding/cautery, or tattooing on them, and they don't wear a permanent collar. They still work according to our expectations, they still serve according to our expectations, otherwise, how would we know that they're a good fit. They might also participate in temporary versions of some of the edge play I enjoy -- like fireplay, cutting, or temporary piercing/needle play. Each dynamic looks like itself -- there isn't anything else to compare it to, just like vanilla engagements/dating and business agreements each look like the individual process they are. Calla Firestorm

NeedingMore220 -> RE: BDSM, Consent, and The Transition (7/6/2008 4:35:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Daddystouch I'm not so much confused about the time it takes, but as to how the relationship works during that time. Obviously it's purpose is to build trust and closeness and so on, but what might the dynamic be during that time? In my experience, it's a gradual easing in of his expectations, us getting to know one another, his "testing" me in various ways to understand my body, reactions and emotions. I am submissive to him and defer fully to him. He is in control and introduces his desires and the way he wishes the relationship to progress. This is how 2 of my past D/s relationships have evolved. My trust builds with each day, as the Dominant follows through on his actions and as he proves I can rely on him. The same way he learns to trust in me.

ProtagonistLily -> RE: BDSM, Consent, and The Transition (7/6/2008 6:05:32 PM)
quote: So far as I can tell, if there is any kind of 'standard' BDSM dynamic, it would be something like this: The bottom consents, in a general sense, to be in a D/s relationship with his or her top. Well, yes, but then the Top has to consent to be with the bottom in question as well. If all you are doing is reading profiles, then I suppose your viewpoint could be skewed. It sort of sounds, from your description, that the Tops sort of show up and point to a bottom and she's supposed to go 'um, no way or OK". It's really more like vanilla dating with more fun toys in my experience. But, my point here would be, both people would need to consent to a 'relationship'. Sometimes, people just play with each other and it never evolved to a relationship. That's perfectly acceptable too... quote: The terms of that relationship (or the nature of it or however you want to word it) are that the bottom does as the top says, but that there are certain limits, what we call hard limits, that the top is not to cross or the relationship could potentially end. I would agree with that assessment in the most general of terms. What I'm not getting a sense of, from your description, is that there's actually any mutual interest, respect and/or fondness or love here. What I'm hearing is that "Top says jump, and bottom jumps because that's what he/she's consented to". In my experience, that's a very elementary idea of what a BDSM relationship is all about. quote: The bottom, may not actually consent to individual commands or requirements, but does consent to be in the relationship knowing that they can be forced to do things. I suppose this is the case, but relationships of any manner, are rarely as cut and dry as this - BDSM relationships are many times multi faceted and hard to define in such 'tab A, slot B' terms. quote: Again like most things involving people, there are endless permutations and variations but that seems to be the basic, core principle of a BDSM relationship to me, though I'm sure someone will disagree with me. Not disagree, just happy you see that there may be room to move here rather than adhere to a strict code of conduct. quote: In a mature BDSM relationship like that, it seems simple enough. Like any relationship, I am sure it is hard work, but relatively straight forward. Yeah pretty much. I behave the way he expects and do the things he expects, I get stroked. When I don't, it creates problems. NOTE: This is not to say he's perfect. He's not - and we both know it. He expects me to be honest when he asks my opinions and he's able to self assess and admit when his way isn't working or there is a better way. Our understanding and interpretation of TPE is that there is an active power exchange going on; but I didn't sign up and get stupid. He expects me to use my brain and be an active participant in the relationship. quote: What I find more difficult to understand is the time between starting a relationship with someone and reaching this mature stage. I think it presumes that everyone engaged in a relationship that has some aspect of the BDSM spectrum has what you think they should have and therefore, their timeline would be relevant to you (again, a little tab A, slot B for my experiences). I would caution you on trying to quantify this - relationships are living, breathing things unto themselves and to say "Well, at X amount of time we should be at Y" could be a sort of sabotage. quote: Presumably two people do not simply meet and instantly enter into such an 'extreme' dynamic, there must be some kind of transition from zero control when you first meet to the kind of near absolute control you get in a developed relationship. So how does this work? I hope I'm making sense... Yes, you are making sense. What I can talk about most clearly is my experience. It's really miraculous that Sir and I even ended up together. I saw his profile here, and he went immediately into my 'reject' pile. In the same breath, I assumed he would not be interested because of his pointed disinterest in submissives of the more 'Rubenesque' body type. C'est la vie, he was a blip on my radar screen. Or so I thought. We met at a Munch, and after months of running into each other and exchanging emails and what not, we started dating. Yes, I know, dating sounds so...vanilla, but people actually do eat and drink and go to the movies in addition to swinging a whip or saying 'yes please, may I have another..." ~grin~ Six months later, he presented me with a collar and a contract, the terms of which were for 3 years. At the time, I thought that was really fast, the whole collar/contract thing. I take this seriously, and I take collars and contracts seriously and he seemed like a serious guy, but it still seemed sort of 'quick' for me. After I spent about 60 seconds thinking this through, I signed the contract, and he put the collar on me. I wouldn't say this is a 'normal' amount of time. I don't know if it's 'normal' - I know it worked for us and has for 2.5 years. This contract expires in December. At that time, according to our current contract, we will part amicably or he we will sign an ownership contract that will bind us indefinately. I'm not suggesting that this will work for all couples who are in BDSM relationships, but this has been the path Sir and I have taken and it's been so far, so good. I hope something I've said has helped. PL

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: BDSM, Consent, and The Transition (7/6/2008 6:21:27 PM)
Time and shared experience. Usually by the time formal consent occurs, the sincerity and dynamic already exist. It doesn't matter WHEN the formal arrangement is made, it matters that everyone feels it's the right thing. Even if you decide on day one to become owned, the process of internalizing, training, growing closer, is simply one that can't be put on a timer. Even people who use contract limits for certain dynamics know going into it that this is merely something to give structure, not a rulebook.

greenearth21 -> RE: BDSM, Consent, and The Transition (7/6/2008 7:21:43 PM)
quote: What I find more difficult to understand is the time between starting a relationship with someone and reaching this mature stage. Presumably two people do not simply meet and instantly enter into such an 'extreme' dynamic, there must be some kind of transition from zero control when you first meet to the kind of near absolute control you get in a developed relationship. So how does this work? I hope I'm making sense... I feel that the "mature" stage happens on its own and in its own pace...more so when both parties feel that the relationship and things surrounding it are in place. I'd also guess that there are some people who have simply met and ntered into such an extreme dynamic( based on some who have approached me in the past, which leads me to believe that if they think its possible, i'm sure there are plenty others who feel/believe the same). There is a transition from 0 to ## (being familiar with the person), which works on its own time, according to the people involved as well. I leave everythign to time...as some of my friends call it my "sitting on the fence syndrome". I really just let things take their own pace...some will last others wont...some will mature and some will be choked out of life before it gets a chance to mature. Its all just party oflife and i just...go with the flow.

DesFIP -> RE: BDSM, Consent, and The Transition (7/6/2008 7:29:42 PM)
Like any other relationship, it develops and deepens in time. I might think I had met the world's most perfect guy on match.com and he might feel the same about me, but that doesn't mean we would become engaged on the first meet. We would do it day by day, slowly feeling more comfortable. Maybe a month or two after meeting I might leave a toothbrush at his place as the relationship seemed to be getting a little more steady. Two weeks later he might leave a spare shirt at mine. A D/s relationship works the same way. He started with little things and we saw how that went.

MaamJay -> RE: BDSM, Consent, and The Transition (7/6/2008 10:45:11 PM)
Some good answers already, but I'm wondering if the OP was trying to get at how the submission changes over time? In my relationships and most others I have observed, submission isn't total from the start. There is a WILLINGNESS to submit, but usually only a few specific aspects are taken up at the beginning. That could be expressed in the instigation of certain rituals (eg methods of greeting), protocols (eg asking permission to leave the room, go to the toilet etc) and service (certain tasks assigned, such as journalling, household chores etc). It doesn't pay to expect a sub to learn everything at once, it's much more successful to introduce a few essentials to start and then add more as they prove capable of mastering them. As Calla explained, in a household situation, there has to be a few house rules adopted right from the start to be able to judge whether or not they are a good fit. It's also wise to remember that it is a learning journey for both sub AND Dom. Going out on a limb here, but judging from relationships I have known AND what I have read in countless posts on these boards, most subs don't immediately submit some important aspects of their life. For eg, subs who are parents don't usually submit control over their UMs to their new Dominant, most don't yield up financial control immediately, many would not yield control over their workplace activities and schedules, or their capacity to see family and friends. Those are the sorts of things that are probably best retained until the relationship has matured and there is a total confidence that these things CAN and SHOULD be submitted ... and that the Dominant is willing to assume control of these too. Some subs would never yield control over some of these and that is fine as long as it meets the needs and expectations of both parties. For eg, Master and i have lived together 24/7 and i was collared 2 years ago. Originally, My Domme side was to remain separate from His control but within 6 months I found that unworkable and undesirable and willingly submitted that to His oversight. Also in about that time frame i willingly submitted control over my schedule so that i no longer accepted outside invitations (eg to a girls night out) immediately but always said "i'll have to check and get back to you". However it was only 18 months ago that i took the step of giving Him total financial control when i handed over the entire proceeds i got from a house sale and had Him buy this house in His name only (for other good reasons which is why He accepted that!). While He has the power, He still discusses finances with me as He strongly believes that 2 heads are better than 1 and these decisions significantly affect both of U/us. As to UMs ... well my ums are furkids and they voluntarily submitted to Him the moment He stepped through the door LMAO ... even my CAT! They all totally adore Him and He only has to speak and they jump! I hope that helps the OP! Maam Jay aka violet[A]

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