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Free trade - 7/7/2008 8:47:41 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
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Notice they do not call it fair trade. What they have done to us is an atrocity, and I an not even counting the people with their dirty little fingers in the pie. They are there, they were the impetus for this, but I want to deal with something else, what they have done TO us.

Wetback was a term invented to describe immigrants, mainly from Mexico and a few South American countries. It literally meant that some of them swam here. But get this, back then it wasn't all that illegal. Colloquially wetback was then taken to mean someone who hasn't been here all that long. It did not take long, given our history, for it to become a derogatory term. To me, I see it as meaning someone without good command of the language, and fifty years ago the word YET would be on the end of that sentence.

I could not imagine going to a country that spoke something other than English, and I would never be stupid enough to do it without learning some of it. (their language) But no matter what, no matter how this last administration adversly affected the world opinion of this country, the huddled masses still see it as the land of milk and honey, or something similar.

Now if you are a grunt in China, putting screw A into hole B for a dollar a day, you have internet. Even though it is controlled there, you know what these things cost. So you know that you can build them but not afford them. But they do know where the major market is, and that is the US. I'd bet that if China was not so far away we would literally have Chinese wetbacks here. The way it is now they need the wherewithal to get on a plane or boat, so their backs won't be wet, but few do.

So now the societal impact of that factor and others affecting immigration has had it's effect. We don't have any problems of any import with immigrants from other nations that are not in easy swimming or boating distance. I don't see many (any) Swiss people showing up looking for Ellis Island for example. It costs MONEY for those people to get here, and I'll tell you this without the need for cites or quotes, it cost my ancestors MONEY to get here.

And they did not ask for traffic signs to include Polish, German or Slovak text, they learned the languange. That is another point, but just to set the record clear, by a lawful act this country adopted English as it's official language, actually by one vote. It was almost German, and all I can say is it would have been a better choice. German is a much more precise language, and that is why it is so hard to learn, at least for Americans.

[details somewhere else, I am not going to hijack my own thread this early]

So now we have this situation. We are the most consumptive society in the world. They know that, everybody knows that. Now I know there are cases where Mexicans come here and live with people or under a bridge and send money home. Now the question is, how can they do that ? Some turn to crime, others actually do it working, but probably a hell of alot of hours so they do not need much of a house. And it is way hotter in Mexico. There is more of this going on than most people think.But how the hell do they get money in a low skilled job beyond their own needs ?

Actually probably the way the rest of the DPs did it, work all shifts and have 15 of them living in a four bedroom house. Circa the year 2000 (word of mouth and one website I doubt is still there) all your Windows software was written in a glorious mansion in Ca. Splendorous it was. Perhaps 40 bedrooms.

But there were 200 people living there. Coded dawn till dusk, and probably and then some. Paid by the line, not by the hour. I don't know the situation now, perhaps they don't even bring them here anymore.

But back to the point, except coming from Mexico or Canada, it costs some REAL MONEY to get here. Has for a long time. So the people who come here from across the seas are :

A. Able to make a living in their own country

B. Have Parents or somebody with money
or
C. Brought here at the behest of a US Citizern or corporation.

So what do we have ? Educated people who put our educated people out of work, and that therefore lowers the pay scale. And this has been going on alot longer than most people think.

And we also have the factor that some of these people lived without all the ubiquitous advertising and getting hooked on the media, and as a result had more time for study, and actually do supersede the US counterparts who they displace. In other words, in some cases they are better qualified.

But it is still everybody's fault. I worked in a factory, boss comes up to me and says "What are we running a shoe factory ?". I told that Greek right there as I was pulling six inch chards of steel of of the soles of my shoes "What, you want me to cut my fuckin feet off ?". I was just a grunt in that company, but that did not get me fired, not at all.

Then they are setting up a machine for me to run and the setup was all wrong. I didn't know but my Father was higher up there and yelled at the owner "What the fuck are you trying to do motherfucker, cut my kid's hand off ?". He then set the job up correctly. I actually talked to the olman about this later and said "It was only a quarter inch drill bit in there" and he retorted "Yeah sure, but if it catches you by surprise, you get cut all up".

I learned alot of respect for machinery there. That thing does not stop, his problem was that it was probably a three horse drill press and if that bit didn't break if the sheetmetal I was to drill "caught" that it would be flinging around, cutting off various parts of my body.

So my olman, a high school dropout, later goes up to the bosses son, who is running about a 12 foot G&L HBM, he heard something. He told the kid "Idiot, suck that spindle in (Z axis) and move the saddle towards the head". He was never afraid, and at 69 I still don't think he ever was. He got his ass kicked, and I mean real good, but here is the thing, the fight happened and then the guy won, got him down, got the drop on him. He waited for all that to happen, and then pulled his gun and told the guy " Hit me one more fucking time and I am dropping you". Fight over, he did lose, but oh well.

Why doesn't someone try to explain how that works, about what kind of person does that. Sees a fight as a fight and does not pull a gun ? It was right there the whole time, but he didn't pull it right away like these pussy boys of today. Anyone like to field that and explain what kind of Man this is ?

Different than us, and I am the first to admit, fukum.

People who don't care about us, we don't care about. This is where it ends.

Now the nasty part. It really ain't so bad.

You enjoyed the amusement park, cotton candy, baseball agmes, football games, basketball games. You enjoted Nintendo, Xboxes and whateve else. You enjoyed how many TV shows a day ? You enjoyed playing with the dog, you enjoyed art, and music if your Parents called it that. You enjoyed an allowance, and your bicycle, and prbably a few other riding toys.

Where was the time for study ? When did you have a chance to read a book ? A dictionary or encyclopedia ? Where was the time for quadraic equations, the FOUR states of matter, the basics of how things work in the world ?

There was none and now we have to compete with people who will work for about a tenth of what we make, but now we are not even in any position to claim any kind of superiority !

What the fuck would you think is going to happen ?

So the sheeple in other countries still think this is the land of milk and honey, but it is a bunch of baloney, all based on credit, selling the country out and printing more money, thus devaluating it.

When you buy something for two grand, big money gets most of it, it might have cost them a tenth of that to build it. Think I am kidding ? I can run you through the manufacture of a few products, which would clear it up quite nicely.

So it is the rich and the poor then ? Is that how it boils down in the end ? It is starting to look like it. Rich take, poor give.

Know what eats my shorts ? They got the charity things on TV, people starving in Africa and all that shit. The only reason a US citizen would be watching that on network TV is because they can't afford cable. But they are the ones targeted. Isn't there something wrong with that picture ? (so to speak)

We need to pull ourselves up from the muck we have landed in, nobody is going to do it for us.

To do that we need to know who, if anyone, our enemies are, they must be identified. Who has destroyed the US economy ? It was not the Bush administration, though they made great strides, it has been going on for a long time.

The question now is not 'how do we stop them ?', it will soon become 'how do we stop ?'

T
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RE: Free trade - 7/7/2008 9:05:38 PM   
greenearth21


Posts: 228
Joined: 7/9/2006
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hmmmmmm very long post...interesting topic by my golly i thought i was going to get cross eyed.
As far as finding who our enemies are...my question to you is ...who would be doign the finding out?  Everyone has an opinion of who is the enemy and the reasons are endless...so who would monitor this?  In the end I think a country; any country would end up with more enemies than friends.  at that point what do you do?  Stand alone like an island where anyone can attack?
Who's destroyed teh economy?  well personally I think if you were to search who has destroyed the economy, i'm sure at the point they have helped the economy.  For instance...lets say india and exporting jobs overseas.  Sure they've put a lot of americans out of jobs (which i find appalling; in any country) but it has reduced the cost.  Now personally I am very anti corportate anything, so please dont see that as me siding with the good ol boys with their hands in everything.  In fact, I fight against that very group...through activist work, volunteering or even my personal life.
A lot of people do blame bush, and I do as well to some degree ( i read my newspapers and research )AND i agree with you that hes not the only one, through he and his buddies didnt make it any better.
Regarding the informercials/commercials regarding 3rd world countries i think its ridiculous that you think a particular group is targeted.  I believe there is a target but its not the poor and not the rich.  It's anyone who falls for it...or anyone who feels a yearning to help someone else in a much worse position.
And you know what?  As much as I protest against atrocities that a particular country has done...I know for a FACT that the US is the land of milk and honey.  Yes there are a lot of ass backwards things going on, butyou know...this is a country where someone from a different country can come and have a chance to a fair education, and they know the value of education than most americans who feel entitled to it.  These people tend to be pro america because they realize that their own country is in shambles.  This is a country where you can voice your political opinion (even though at times it seems like no one pays attention and maybe no result) and not worry about being killed.

I have to say that in some ways i agree with you and even try to see your stance on certain issues.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Free trade - 7/7/2008 9:35:54 PM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
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You don't stop them. You simply accept what it, and find a way to profit from it. I have mentioned hiring a mexican dayworker for $100 to paint my home. Thats an effective use of capital. A benjamin is good money for a dayworker. Figure I get a 10 hour workday with lunch breaks, smoke breaks, etc, thats still $10 bucks an hour. If the guy manages to get picked up 5 or 6 days a week he is pulling 25K plus a year, tax free... Figure that his wife is out cleaning houses or something shes probably bringing in another 20K so you are looking at 45 K clear in hand... I would dare say that many of the posters on this board dont clear 45K into their household every year.

The illegal immigrant is willing to work for a decent wage. I got estimates from three contractors to paint, and fuck them! The difference between what I paid the mexican dayworker and the contractors estimates bought me a Waverunner to tie to my dock! See thge problem isnt the aliens its the American worker who thinks hes some kind of fucking prize. You want paint on your walls? Well they want $18 - $20 an hour, plus health insurance, dental, vision, paid vacation, sick days, an hour lunch break, coffee breaks, etc... Well fuck them, because I can get the Mexican, put him to work and when I come back from the Tacquria with a $3.50 torta and a bottle of mexican coke he is happy as hell, saying Gracias, and telling me that I am so kind...

This is particularly true in the trades. I mean lets be real here a second... My house uses all copper supply pipe. I installed it all myself, using a teenage mexican helper who got half rate because he was learning a trade, and a pilot buddy who was paid in beer and BBQ.  A plumber installing 1/2" and 3/4" copper supply lines in a residential dwelling does not deserve $30 - $40 an hour. Its not pipefitting in the nuclear plant for christs sake. Spin the brush on the end of the pipe, spin the other end of the brush on the inside of the fitting, when both are shiny smear on flux and put them together. Heat with torch, when hot enough touch solder to the joint and it will wick into the joint. Then before it cools wipe it with a rag so its pretty.  I could teach a chimpanzee how to sweat copper fittings, and I dont pay chimpanzees $40 an hour. Th enemy is the fucking unions who created this socialist sense of entitlement and led people to think they are worth more than they are. Just because Plumbers Local 666 thinks one of their knuckle dragging apprentice morons is worth $40 an hour doesnt make it so - not when I can teach a teenage mexican kid how to sweat copper like a pro in 1/2 hour using $3 in materials...

Someone wants $40 an hour to lay down X-ray quality welds every time they strike an arc at the refinery, chemical plant, etc by all means... Pay it, they are practicing a skilled trade that takes years of practice. In my house? No, if it gets fucked up cut it off and do it over a 1/2 in copper elbow costs less than half of a postage stamp. A 40 cubic foot B tank of acetylene costs something $16 to fill. Tossing a few fittings and 10 extra minutes of torch time over the span of plumbing the whole house isnt going to break me, and it is a hell of a lot cheaper than $40 an hour...  

So my advice would be accept what is, save money by using the hardworking aliens, and let them improve your quality of life. Sit back on the deck answering e-mails while your house is being cleaned, the little woman gave you a "honey do" list well by god swing by home depot to get the materials and pick up an alien to do them. I speak from experience, watching someone planting 15 trays of flowers around the yard is simply fucking exhausting  As for the little woman, on the way home surprise her with a gift certificate for a $20 manicure and pedicure done by the asian women brought here illegally in cargo containers and then while shes gone run over to Madame Lotus's Asian Spa to get a nice rub and tug for yourself from another asian immigrant. Its number one good time, Sailor...   

Aliens are such a hot button issue to so many, but ya know they are a cost effective resource to be used so that you can buy cool toys made by other low paid immigrants. There is no "right" to high wages here in America. If you want to earn the big bucks, dont become a house painter or a gardener or an assembly worker. People should stop bitching at the aliens, and improve their own earning power. Just because a business or individual has money doesnt mean they are the United Way. Its not my responsibility to ensure that some guy who paints houses can afford to send his kids to college, and that he can have a vacation home, and a nice new truck in his driveway. We arent a communist country, we are capitalist. Its my responsibility to keep as much money in my own pocket as I can so that I can go out and buy myself all the cool toys I want - thus driving the economy.

Better to work for what you are worth than to hold out for what you think your worth. A mexican out there six days a week at $10 per hour is making more than an American sitting around waiting for the phone to ring... This is even more true in assembly. Despite what the UAW thinks, a lug nut installer on the line doesnt deserve $25 an hour... Better to have work at a rate people will pay than to walk the picket line while they send the plant abroad...

< Message edited by DomAviator -- 7/7/2008 9:44:46 PM >

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Free trade - 7/8/2008 9:11:53 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
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Again DA, you leave me wondering if you are agreeing with me or not. It happens.

Actually up here there are not so many illegals to exploit. However there are others. My mechanic for example, I got thousands of dollars worth of work done to my car, for about $200 labor. This entailed all new strut towers, stabilizer links, the works. But every day he was working on it he got beer, smoke, even food if hungry.

The guy who takes my cans, about ten years my junior, when he first started doing it we called him the can kid. Years ago it became my policy that if he wanted the cans he would have to bag them up himself. But he is here every Thursday doing just that, and has become the canMan. Bought a house, truck, all that.

Right now I am looking for a way to expoit the unemployed or under employed. I am sick of working and there are plenty of people out there who are willing, but need some guidance, because as stated in the OP, they don't have marketable skills. Once I get the right idea I intend to do just that. I could build a house, but I don't want to do all the grunt work. But for a house you need a plan and someone to direct the execution of that plan.

At this stage of the game, that would be me. People would sort of graduate into good jobs as they learned, and should be happy for that, and I have no problem paying well, as long as I am making money. Once they are able to work unattended I can then share the wealth so to speak. They can have raises and they don't have to be the only one on the payroll. I can have any number of them out working somewhere on any given day.

Now I know there are different breeds. If the hot water tank at the DA Arms sprung a leak at 11 PM, he would shut it off and fix it the next day, but some would call a plumber for "emergency service" for a couple of reasons, like they have to wash their hair, or they don't know how to shut the feed off to the tank.

It takes about a half hour to change a hot water tank. And I am talking about a gas one, and doing a nice job. Electric is even easier. Those new continuous ones (sold in Europe for years by the way) might take a bit longer. But not by much.

But for four or five hours work, a couple of guys are taking $300 home. Gotta load the truck, get there, carry the new tank in, change it, drain the old one, dispose of it, and not on the tree lawn because at midnight, you are not getting a permit.

Of course I know the "right" way. Shut off the tank, get a contract signed, go to city hall in the morning for a permit, get the tank, and then wait until they get home from work the next day to do the job. In the meantime they took a cold shower in the morning. I don't think that is very good customer service.

So cutting red tape is nothing new to me.

But then we got the dogshit guy. Does that hurt the economy ? I doubt it. In a halfway affluent community I doubt you could find a thirteen year old kid to do it, their allowace is probably ten times that. So I don't think he is really displacing US workers. But then I wonder if his olady is out working or having their third "anchor child" at a US hospital somewhere.

See it's not the fact that they work here, it is the fact that they are here.That's what alot of people have a problem with.

But the other problem is that when you take industry to a country in which the people are poorer, they will undercut fair wages. Not just the forty buck an hour plumber. Factory wages are at an all time low.

All part of the master plan. Not a conspiracy mind you, just a plan. They cooperate to forward the plan, they do not conspire. But they do profit, and solidify their position as the profiteers they are. It is OK to make money, but a line must be drawn somewhere.

Anybody got a Sharpie ?

T

(in reply to DomAviator)
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RE: Free trade - 7/8/2008 9:19:39 AM   
housesub4you


Posts: 1879
Joined: 4/2/2008
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I had to have my house re-roofed because of a tree falling on a portion of it  

Insurance issued a check for around 5 grand for the work.  I could not find 1 legal contractor who would fix the hole for that price, everyone said the whole roof needed to be replaced at a cost of 25 grand,

I hired a few illegals and had the whole roof replaced for under the 5 grand the insurance gave me. 

I was never supportive of hiring illegals, but when reality hit me in the face, I changed my point of view 

(in reply to DomAviator)
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RE: Free trade - 7/8/2008 11:29:56 AM   
Maya2001


Posts: 1656
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
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Is it mexicans or the chinese peasant that asked for free trade???? NOOO they are caught up in it just like we are..but for them it is slowly bringing advantages   Free trade came about as a result of big business looking for ways to expand their profits.  The big corps wanted a way to take advantage of cheap labour forces in other countries and then be able to ship the products made outside of north america into  the country without having to pay high tariffs... the north Ameican free trade agreement came about to take advantage of Canada's lower dollar and natural resources,  and cheaper costs of health care..... when the dollar started to fluctuate the big corps start looking and labour forces overseas  that would help to increase their profit margin ....what they did not consider was these agreement also allowed other companies to bring their products to the US  without the high tariffs ..... Inorder now to keep jobs here workers are have to accept lower wages and standards, the immigrants are already used to a crappy lifestyle so they will take jobs the north americans will turn their noses up at saying it is beneath them or not worth it and when the immigrants  succeed and do well at...the americans run around shouting ..not fair.... your pointing you finger at the wrong enemy.. the immigrants are just the fall guys in the mess that big business created .   

_____________________________

Lead me not into temptation - I can find the way myself

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RE: Free trade - 7/8/2008 7:55:43 PM   
Termyn8or


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And American consumerism created big business, most of what is here today at least.

T

(in reply to Maya2001)
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RE: Free trade - 7/8/2008 8:26:29 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
"Free Trade" is an invention of big business not of The People.
It benefits big business and not The People as we are beginning to realize more and more.
All big business wants to do is sell you things and take your money.
They no longer have any stake in the U.S. except to sell their products here.
As people make less and less money due to factories closing and moving overseas they'll be able to afford less and less of those products.
"Free Trade" is making about 20,000 people in this country insanely rich.
For the rest of us 300 million it is not a good deal at all.
I'm still waiting for all those "high paying manufacturing jobs" that Clinton promised us if "NAFTA" were passed.
Again, our government has lied to us about this.
We have senators and congressmen who take money from lobbyists to vote on "Free Trade" bills that The American People do not want.
And General Motors is going to layoff 30,000 more white collar workers.
We need to get out of all these "Free Trade" deals.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Free trade - 7/9/2008 4:26:38 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

I have mentioned hiring a mexican dayworker for $100 to paint my home. Thats an effective use of capital.


And a violation of State and Federal Law.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to DomAviator)
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RE: Free trade - 7/9/2008 7:11:09 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
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hmmm.  if someone has trouble finding work i do wonder. my whole family is workiung.  now that desnt mean it is fair or best, but they all have more work then time.


as to society-    allright and i say this with hesistation.  i feel most comfy in Americanized culture.   Being we are aging - we in a way have no other choice- well raise the brith rate is one....

i do get angered on how everything is a scam tho.  in fact my "human rights are not as good as machine rights" rant set off my BIL.  lol  --

(in reply to popeye1250)
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RE: Free trade - 7/10/2008 12:10:40 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline
I don't care if they are legal or not. The only people I thought could take a of of mine were Eureopeans. One day a Mexican dd it, oh well. Am I fucked, not really, they called me back while he was there. Truth. And the guy is legal because they would insist on it, to the point of sponsoring him in, and that would not be the first time. Oh yes, for fifteen years they tried to replace me, and still have not done it.

Not really. There is a time when you  need someone who REALLY know what the fuck they are doing, and I am it. Have been for decades.

Free trade, maybe not so bad. Dude at work is on a power trip, thinks he has senority because he has been ther twelve years and I have been the a bit over three. NOBODY HAS SENORITY OVER ME IN THIS FIELD THAT I HAVE EVER MET IN PERSON OR ONLINE. Period. And I am very good at taking people off their horse.

That is my personal shit, what is going on in the world is alot different, because people who run the thing are alot stoooopider than I am.

So I should be assured or something ? Not seeing it.

T


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RE: Free trade - 7/10/2008 12:22:48 AM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

I have mentioned hiring a mexican dayworker for $100 to paint my home. Thats an effective use of capital.


And a violation of State and Federal Law.




Independant Contractor Status...   Its all about the loopholes, all about the loopholes... I no more need to check his immigration status than I need to request a greencard from the girl at the Burgerking drive through... As for the "State Law" take it up with the cop who told me where to find them LOL

(in reply to farglebargle)
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