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Don't Ask Don't Tell unfounded - 7/7/2008 9:18:43 PM

Alumbrado

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Another refutation that signing DADT into law was either good or neccessary.

quote:

Congress should repeal the "don't ask, don't tell" law because the presence of gays in the military is unlikely to undermine the ability to fight and win, according to a new study released by a California-based research center

The study was conducted by four retired military officers, including the three-star Air Force lieutenant general who in early 1993 was tasked with implementing President Clinton's policy that the military stop questioning recruits on their sexual orientation."Evidence shows that allowing gays and lesbians to serve openly is unlikely to pose any significant risk to morale, good order, discipline or cohesion," the officers state...

....Navy Vice Adm. Jack Shanahan said he had no opinion on the issue when he joined the panel, having never confronted it in his 35-year military career. A self-described Republican who opposes the Bush administration's handling of the Iraq war, Shanahan said he was struck by the loss of personal integrity required by individuals to carry out "don't ask, don't tell."
"Everyone was living a big lie — the homosexuals were trying to hide their sexual orientation and the commanders were looking the other way because they didn't want to disrupt operations by trying to enforce the law," he said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080708/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/military_gays

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RE: Don't Ask Don't Tell unfounded - 7/8/2008 12:02:44 AM

DomAviator

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If Shanahan claims he "never confronted" the homosexual issue in his 35 year Navy career he is so full of shit that his eyes are brown. He says "everyone was living a big lie" and "commanders were looking the other way" HMMMMMM, that sounds a lot like he confronted it didnt he?

I dont know where the Admiral was but during my Navy career I saw homosexuality being a VERY big issue from the day I arrived in Pensacola! I hadnt even made it to Building 633 to check in when I encountered a gunney in some guys face screaming "YOU A FAGGOT BOY??? YOU SOME KIND OF POLE SMOKING FAGGOT??? YOU WANNA SUCK MY COCK PUSSY???"

It became more "anti gay" (note I didnt say "homophobic", they arent afraid of gays they just want to kill them) from there... I saw it all, from a soft spoken shy religious guy mistakenly believed to be gay persecuted, pranked, blanket partied, etc to official stake outs of gay bars with telephoto lenses looking for the "queers among us". After DADT the official active hunting stopped - but the enlisted still had a zero tolerance policy and conducted their own private witch hunts and so did many of the senior officers.

I dont know where the hell this Admiral was, or what agenda he is pushing, but the Navy is not a good place to be gay. The flight deck of an aircraft carrier is one of the most dangerous work environments on earth, and the guys whether actually gay or simply believed to be gay tend to have an inordinately high number of close calls. Rarely anything so obvious that anyone can ever prove it, but I have on many occassions suspected that various close calls were a warning to certain people. It was certainly a morale issue, especially for the wrongly accused, and a discipline issue.

I know of an O-6 who made discreet inquiries all the way back to OCS, through the training squadrons, through the fleet replacement squadrons etc looking for anyone who had any carnal knowledge about a particular female NFO that he felt had eaten more pussy than him. DADT not withstanding, some of the old salts were constantly on the hunt - especially for lesbians as they resented the idea of women in Naval Aviation more than you coud imagine so if you could prove she was "a dyke" you could get "the split tailed slit licker" out of the squadron. (Incidentally, these very conversations were in and of themselves a violation of Article 133 "Conduct Unbecoming" but that goes out the widow when you have an old salt with a bird on his collar hunting for wild lesbians!)

Even that gun turrert explosion on the USS Iowa was officially pinned on suspected homosexuals, until they ultimately reversed themselves and admitted it was static electricity, over ramming, and poor training.

So, the article is right in that DADT didnt do anything except end the official hunt - it didnt stop it, it just made it unofficial. However the "I never confronted the problem" is bullshit unless the Admiral never poked his head out of his office. Odd he didnt say "encountered". Sounds more like double speak - he didnt confront it, he just sat back and watched it happen and let it go on without confrontation...

My advice to the gays, and I dont mean this in a discriminatory way, would be to stay the hell out of anything related to the Navy. Maybe the Air Force is more tolerant if you want to serve as they are the more genteel and refined of the services and tend to attact a less "rough" enlisted crowd. I cant speak of the Army or USCG but the Navy or Marines are not good places to be gay or suspected gay no matter what the official policy is as old traditions and prejudices die hard.

< Message edited by DomAviator -- 7/8/2008 12:14:47 AM >

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RE: Don't Ask Don't Tell unfounded - 7/8/2008 8:39:41 AM

soul2share

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Well, having been in the Army, and it was 27 years ago, I didn't see too much "witch-hunting", and my unit in Germany had 3 known lesbians in it...we didn't care....in fact, we protected their secret as if it was our own. All we cared about is that EVERYONE in the unit pulled their own weight, regardles of their sexual orientation.....I'd fight in a foxhole next to any one of the 3 without even giving it a second thought. I was also Army stationed on an Air Base, and worked closely with the AF personnel....married one of 'em, actually.....and they didn't appear to be hung up on sexual orientation either.

You would hear the bashing jokes, of course....mostly from the guys. It usually consisted of them calling each other names, not so much as an insult, as just fooling around. As a whole, females seemed to have absolutely no concerns over the sexual orientation of another female. I know I never did, and I roomed with one of the women. I wish I could understand the mindset of naval and marine personnel towards the gay population.....Marines are taught in basic to call all females Ma'am, regardless of rank, yet hunting down gays and lesbians seems to be ingrained into them too from basic. I'd love for someone to prove me wrong, this is just based on the contact w/Marines that I have had myself. I haven't had any contact w/Naval personnel, other than my dad was in, but he's of a different generation anyway, so his thoughts are going to be different......but I don't think he really thinks about it much. He's one of the "live and let live" type of folks, as is my mother.

Again, these are only opinions based on my contact with the Services. I really don't think things will change for at least another 10-15 years....gotta get all the good ol' boys out of the command positions.

< Message edited by soul2share -- 7/8/2008 8:40:42 AM >

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RE: Don't Ask Don't Tell unfounded - 7/8/2008 8:43:40 AM

LaTigresse

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Based on my own personal experience around many military personel, I think that women definately have it alot easier in this regard, than the men. Much much easier.

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RE: Don't Ask Don't Tell unfounded - 7/8/2008 10:58:44 AM

DomKen

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Maybe its strictly a Navy thing but in the years I served, 85 to 91, pursuit of homosexuals was something of an obsession. The brass even implemented an 800 number so people could make anonymous accusations. In A school one of the girls on the top floor of my barracks turned down a particulary nasty senior chief and suddenly her room was the subject of a surprise "health and safety" inspection where a double dildo was discovered. This instantly made her and her roommate lesbians. They were yanked out of school and were discharged. The senior chief responsible made sure everybody knew he arranged it and I'm sure he forced several other female sailors into his bed with that threat.

The policy of don't ask, don't tell, don't pursue is a good first step. Ultimately a presidential command ordering the removal of the anti homosexuality article in the UCMJ is what is needed. Just as the period after Truman ordered the integration of the services it would likely be unpopular but soon enough it would be accepted.

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