FLButtSlut
Posts: 344
Joined: 3/17/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sub4hire
Bottom line, we are not getting out of this world alive. Just the way we are getting out remains to be seen. Assuming there is a God, do we take his job into our hands? Would he or she approve?
I have viewed suicide most of my life as a ticket straight to hell. I very well could be wrong. I am aware I know nothing in the grand scheme of things.
While I do tend to agree with you here, do you differentiate between taking God's job into our hands or just hastening God's plan along a bit more?
quote:
ORIGINAL: sub4hire
However, in the same instance do you want to be kept alive when there is absolutely no chance in the world to survive?
Perhap's being able to gather your loved ones to say goodbye and actually saying goodbye?
The "absolutely no chance in the world to survive" is the key point in the whole concept of assisted suicide in my opinion. Things like pancreatic cancer, which causes an absolutely horrible, painful death, is also among those cancers with a zero survival rate. The final stages of AIDS as well. In these cases, you are looking at coherent people, with no chance of survival wishing to end things before they become such mere "shadows" of themselves as to be nearly unrecognizable. Allowing them to "hasten" the process is the kindest thing we can do.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sub4hire
We get desperate. I would not have ever put Dr. Kevorkian in jail if it were me. His crime was having empathy on other's. The world would be a much better place if we had empathy. To see someone suffering you love. To be able to end their suffering.
When my sister was dying she was literally begging to be put out of pain. They gave her more morphine.
Again, the key is that your sister begged for her suffering to end. My sincere condolences on your loss, and it is my belief that the morphine helped to effectively minimize her pain.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sub4hire
So, we can all answer the way we think we would given the circumstances today. Yet, if it is you in that place and you see your loved one in so much pain with no way to ever recover. What would you do?
Would you be selfish and keep them when they should'nt be here? Or would you do perhap's the first self less act in your life and let them go? I've seen people do both. Personally I'd like to think I was doing a last wish for the person. I hope when my time comes I have someone who loves me enough to allow me to go in as much peace as possible.
My point exactly is that following the wishes of the person who is dying, provided they are competent to make such a decision.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Quivver
As a fellow rider, and one that is active in the area of his fall, there is a mind set that many share of not wishing to exist in place of living actively, or possibly I should say selfishly as we had. Although the possibility of accomplishing *something* even after a tragedy such as his, many of us would see this as a slow and painful death. It's only from that point of view that I made the statement.
And I do certainly understand the point from which you are coming from. The problem is that until we are actually in that position, we can never answer with definitiveness as to what the reality would be when it occurred. Christopher Reeve had a very young son, and while his life was certainly far less than before the accident, he had NINE additional years of watching his young son grow up, nine more years of being able to love and be part of his family. For many parents, this alone makes it worth it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: mnottertail
... it is unclear what was accomplished of lasting value in the earth.
Apparently, you don't read much. It is quite clear what Christopher Reeve accomplished of lasting value. He more than doubled the financial resources for spinal injury research, he gave hope and inspiration to spinal injury victims worldwide, helping them to realize that the productive nature of their lives did not end with their injury. Reeve has used the contacts he had made in Washington during his years of advocacy work to lead the fight to increase funding for spinal cord injury research which, despite recent breakthroughs by scientists, had previously received inadequate financial support. His efforts in both the private and public sectors have met with considerable success both in raising money and awareness of the needs and desires of disabled people. Doctors credit Reeve with bringing neurological disease to the attention of the politicians the public, as well as increasing the NIH budget that funds their research.
Those are very notable and lasting achievements. Progress is being made in spinal cord research because this man took used his "celebrity" to help promote a worthy cause.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
I think a person should be able to choose when they die if the option is available.
A bit of an all encompassing statement, giving the context of this thread. Furthermore the "option" IS available to anyone at anytime. I'm sure you have heard of "suicide"? People kill themselves everyday. They "choose" to die and take the necessary measures to do so. While suicide is considered "illegal" in most jurisdictions, you can't prosecute the dead, so it doesn't matter. Overall, the statement is one that without further detail or explaination just sounds completely ignorant and ill formed.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kindred2Evil
He has a living will that states very very clearly what is and what isn't acceptable should he need medical treatment. I, personally, believe in assisted dieing. I can't imagine the pain he is constantly in, every day of his life. This is a point that he and I don't agree on. My father's quality of life is, well, it's not what most would call quality. He feels that every day above ground is a good one, and he will die on the Spirits schedule, not mans.
I believe that if there comes a point where pain is your world, you can't function, can't eat, can't sleep that the humane thing to do is help this person. Having power of attorny over my father, being responsible for his medical treatment has torn me in two.
So you are torn in two because you aren't sure whether to carry out your father's issues, which, according to the above, he has made quite clear (your agreement/disagreement being totally irrelevant to his choice), and your own selfishness of doing what YOU think is best.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kindred2Evil
I know there will come a day when he can no longer get out of bed, when all he will be able to do is lay there and suffer. If I had my druthers, well, I'd do all I could to ease his suffering. Instead I will be the one who stands by his side and has to watch him suffer.
When that time comes, your father may very well change his mind about how he wishes to continue. In any case, your "druthers" are irrelevant. Sadly, yes, you will suffer from watching your father in pain (as I did watching my father die many years ago). The bottom line is that it isn't YOUR choice when your father's suffering is more than he can bear, it is his. You wish for something else is more about ending YOUR suffering than his, and that is one of the main reasons that legalizing assisting suicide/euthanisia becomes so difficult. You clearly state that you would remove the decision from him to keep YOU from having to watch him suffer. I don't wish to watch anyone suffer, but it is not my place or YOURS to determine when that suffering is unbearable for someone else.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sub4hire
In order to really establish brain wave activity the person must be awake. Beyond that you can say there is brain damage but no idea how severe it is.
Actually, this is not true. It is very possible to know when a person is brain dead.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sub4hire
I remember those 8 minutes if that is indeed how long it was. I personally believe it was much less. I remember wanting and begging to say goodbye to my parents. To make a phone call to my siblings. Trying so hard to move. Just to move a finger even and not being able to. I was begging god to allow me to take a hike on my favorite trail once more. Just so I could go meditate. So many thoughts went through my head. I could hear the people yelling at me while I was doing all of this internal struggling, that no one on the outside of my body could see. It went on for hour's in my mind. When I was revived and only for a moment I was out of breath and my entire body was sore. I never got hit by anything but an ember that went down my glove.
While the incidents that occurred to you were certainly traumatic, obviously YOU were not ready to give up on life yet, wishing and begging as you did for the opportunity to do and say all those things you stated. In a case like that, "letting you go" it would seem, was not your desire.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sub4hire
Yet, I don't put my personal preferences on other's when they tell me their wishes. They have their own wishes and there is no way in the world I can ever understand them.
One of the most selfless, compassionate things I have seen posted on this thread. Your ability to realize that the person's wishes supercede your feelings and your courage to want to carry out those wishes is commendable.
quote:
ORIGINAL: domtimothy46176
I think that euthanasia should be covered under the same legal precedents as the controversial "right to choose". I'm not a legal scholar, by any means, but onthe face of it it would appear to be inconsistent to provide the choice to terminate the life of one's offspring but not one's own self.
Timothy
As I have repeatedly stated, the "right to choose" should be an option of the INDIVIDUAL, not the family. Being "pro choice" and pro euthanasia are not even closely related. Patients who are terminally ill with no hope of recovery, can and do choose to "die with dignity" everyday. Just because it isn't all over the news doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Choosing to end your life because you are clinically depressed should not be a valid reason. If we were to allow such a thing the teenage suicide rate could feasibly skyrocket out of control. In order for such a thing as euthanasia to become a legal option, there must be a stringent list of criteria that must be met before such a thing could even be considered.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet
Mental compentance is what comes to mind in this situation. If you have Alzheimers/Dementia where you can't remember your own name or family nor unable to clean, bath, and feed yourself, then what is the purpose of staying alive.
You also do not have the competence to make a decision whether you live or die. Alzheimers/Dementia patients, up until the end DO have moments of lucidity. Furthermore, using those as an example is kind of like saying, let's kill all the old people. If you live long enough, senile dementia is unavoidable. Even living here in Florida, where it would seem senile dementia is a malady of nearly every senior citizen driving a car doesn't mean that they should be euthanized.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet
You no longer have no stories to share nor wisdom to give.
Quit the contrary. That is when those stories and wisdom can be their most clear, because the Alzheimer's patient is reliving and remembering those stories as though they just happened.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet
Atleast we still have DNR rights. Though it can be turned around by power of attorney/family, you're basicly dead anyways and don't have a say in it. What will Ali do about his parkinsons?
According to most of the "theories" and opinions here, his quality of life has already diminished beyond reason and he should have been euthanized years ago. Problem is that while he may not be capable of communicating well, he is still perfectly competent. Further, his religion does not offer him the opportunity of suicide, so who should have the right to damn him in such a way?
quote:
ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet
Whatever you decide what to do with your life, remember that your life is short. You have eternity to be dead. So why be that eager to end it all when you're still have enough mental/physical stability to communicate and feel with your loved ones. Sure you don't want to be like that, and they don't want you to be like that, but it happened. What's the harm in stepping up to the challenge?
Finally, some sensibility from someone. Fact is that sometimes shit happens, and sometimes life sucks. Like the old saying goes, when God gives you lemons, make lemonade. It may not have been YOUR plan (you being generic you), but it is what it is. You can make the best of it or you can die. One choice denotes courage, the other cowardice. This of course excludes those in a vegitative state with no hope of recovery.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet
The biggest issue is perserving as much dignity as possible for every human being. In both my nurseing home and Trauma ICU experiences there have been days I said to myself "This guy is just better off dead."
Problem is that sometimes, "this guy" might not agree with you that he would be "better off dead". YOU might believe you would be better off dead in his situation, "he" may not. It is HIS choice.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet
Everybody needs to ask thereselves a few questions.
1. Can I live with a colostomy bag You might not like it, but it isn't a situation worthy of dying over
2. Can I live with a foley cathater for the rest of my life Same as #1, if you can't live with such an inconvenience, perhaps you should question whether or not the rest of your life had any value to begin with.
3. Can I live with a feeding tube because I can no longer swallow nor digest food This one becomes tougher, but it certainly doesn't prevent a productive life, just a more difficult one.
4. Can I live in diapers for the rest of my years Aren't there some people on this site who do THAT by choice?
5. Can I live always being ventalator dependent CAN you? Of course. WILL you is a different issue.
6. Can I live being mentaly stable yet not being able to feel, move, nor speak. Then you aren't able to communicate what you want, and while this is the toughest question you think people should ask themselves, I think it is still possible to communicate.
Can I live with some or all these things while perserving dignity? There is a big difference between PRIDE and DIGNITY. For the most part, these things do not eliminate your dignity, they compromise our pride.
-Edited by ModOne to remove TOS violation
< Message edited by ModeratorOne -- 11/12/2005 1:17:23 AM >
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RE: Euthanasia - Pro or Con? - 
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