RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!!

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Stephann -> RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! (7/12/2008 4:04:40 PM)
Now be fair caitlyn; it wasn't that the Soviets or the Americans defeated the Germans; it was the fact that Germany jumped into a two front war, without expecting the US to leap in as late in the game as they did, with as much firepower as they did. Without US intervention, which language would Europe speak today; German, or Russian? I don't think this translates to the moral 'right' the US has claimed the past sixty years in terms of our national policy. Pragmatically, for good or ill, might makes right. I think the US is quickly losing both between an enormous war debt and a staunch slide in economic prowess. Stephan

caitlyn -> RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! (7/12/2008 5:45:43 PM)
Well, we will never really know, but since it's such an interesting discussion ... I don't think the Germans could have beaten either the Soviets, or the Americans. They has their chance at the Soviets, in what was basically a one-front scenario. Now there were troops not in the East, but the point must be made that Germany probably couldn't have logistically supported more troops in the East anyway, so they probably gave the best they could ... and after much initial success, got it handed to them quite effectively. The American ... I'm sure the meatcleavers of the world will call me a homer, but I'm calling them like I see them. Only America and Britain in WWII, managed to understand what modern warfare was all about. Germany put all their chips on tanks and wonder weapons, while especially the American, understood that artillery and massed airpower was the way to go. Germany has some stong localized victories in the West, but for the most part, the Western battlefields consisted of American artillery and fighters demolishing Germans in the ground, while four engine bombers laid waste to German industrial might. Now Germany had some wonder weapons, but would have been a parking lot by the time they had one that could seriously threaten the United States. No real Germans navy, no four-engine bombers in large numbers, no massive wave of inexpensive fighter aircraft ... Germany was never in the game against the United States. Now, if all those thought go for naught, and again we will never really know ... one might consider that there actually was one country that fought and won on two front in World War Two, and it wasn't very close on either one.

meatcleaver -> RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! (7/13/2008 12:22:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn The American ... I'm sure the meatcleavers of the world will call me a homer, but I'm calling them like I see them. Only America and Britain in WWII, managed to understand what modern warfare was all about. Germany put all their chips on tanks and wonder weapons, while especially the American, understood that artillery and massed airpower was the way to go. Germany has some stong localized victories in the West, but for the most part, the Western battlefields consisted of American artillery and fighters demolishing Germans in the ground, while four engine bombers laid waste to German industrial might. Now Germany had some wonder weapons, but would have been a parking lot by the time they had one that could seriously threaten the United States. No real Germans navy, no four-engine bombers in large numbers, no massive wave of inexpensive fighter aircraft ... Germany was never in the game against the United States. Germany lost for the same reason Japan lost, they were both under resourced and gambled everything on one throw of the dice against very long odds. Once Germany failed to win the Battle of Britain, the best outcome for them was stalemate and a conditional peace but then some idiot in the Reichstag decided to have a go at Russia. It was a futile and desperate gesture for a military that was only resourced and equiped to fight a short war. It was also a futile gesture to declare war on the US after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour. The US wasn't that happy to go to war, declaring its neutrality after Britain and France declared war on Germany in 1939. There was the chance that America might not join the European war. With such intelligent decision making in Berlin, there was only ever going to be one outcome. The fact that Germany wreaked so much havoc was because Hitler was prepared to completely and utterly destroy Germany in the process of his defeat. Japan was also severely under resourced and knew they had one throw of the dice to convince the US that they should keep out of the far east and lift its embargo on Japan. Most of the thinking leadership in Japan knew they were waking a sleeping giant and defeat would be the only outcome. It was the military using the Emperor as a god figure that kept desent amongst the military in check. In regard to Germany and Japan, it was a case of them losing a war with wreckless and ill thought out aggressive decisions. Hell, if Japan wasn't so cruel to the peoples it conquered, it most likely would have been welcomed as a liberator against the the hated western imperialist and the western powers would have been quickly kicked out of south east asia. Japan made the western imperialists look positively humane, a stupid and fatal mistake.

slvemike4u -> RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! (7/13/2008 12:57:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomAviator quote: ORIGINAL: DesertRat I'm a citizen and a taxpayer. As a GI, you work for me. You're defective. That concerns me. I don't feel like I'm really getting my money's worth. I know the military had to lower its standards to (try to) fill its ranks, but surely they can do better than what I see here. Alternatively...maybe the good ones are the "silent majority". The ones doing their jobs with dignity and not drooling and coming in their diapers at the thought of violence. Whichever case is true, there appears to be a need for some quality control. Bob Sorry to burst your bubble but your taxes didnt do much to fund me... Youre entire annual household income, much less the taxes you pay, wouldnt purchase one load of ordnance for one of my strikes. A basic JDAM tail kit has a unit cost in excess of $21,000 per bomb - depending what its attached to the total weapon cost is sometimes as much as $70,000 per unit ... The aircraft itself is $41,000,000 Make no mistake, Joe Anybody doesnt pay the taxes to fund the military, the corporations you work for do... You will never earn enough in your life to pay enough taxes to keep even one F/A-18 flying for a year. The last squadron I was in had 36 officers and 257 enlisted men.... Your taxes wouldnt fund our coffee and toilet paper bill. I work for you - thats a fucking laugh! I paid OUT OF MY OWN POCKET over $2000 in uniform and other expenses at Pensacola. Thats right, when you report to Officer Candidate School - come with cash or a checkbook - theres a lot of shit to buy! Oh yeah, another thing - every month I had to settle up my wardroom bill because as an officer I paid for my meals. Im not even going to get into the gory details of this - but during the Clinton years the pay was so fucking bad that many military families qualified for food stamps! So big spender - dig a little deeper and how about forgoing your tax refund check so as to give your "employees" a little extra cash? LMFAO You were such a good fucking boss that a couple of times a month we would pass a cover in the wardroom so that the squadron welfare officer would be able to go buy shoes that didnt have holes in them and maybe some fucking food for an enlisted families kids. We weren't rolling in the dough either, but we did a little better than the enlisted - albeit not NEARLY what we could have gotten in the civilian world with our college degrees. However, there is a reason why an aviators drink of choice is a fucking TWELVE DOLLAR burbon from Conneticut. Thank God that George Bush undid that and now pays military personell a living wage because the benovolant democrats sure fucked the military up the ass without so much as a reach around. Nonetheless. you werent my boss... You were the little kid who came in the candy store with his nickle to buy one gummy fish. I was the store clerk who was kind enough to keep the bullies from beating the piss out of you and taking your gummy fish away. LOL There is "importance" and "impotence" they sound similar but have different meanings - I suggest you look at your tax return and then the DOD budget to decide what category you fall under when it comes to us "working for you". Lets see if I'm following the reasoning(?) here.Joe Anybody goes to work in this great land and as a consequence pays his taxes as dictated by law...You strap on Your multi-million dollar aircraft with Your oh so expensive bombload and tell Yourself Joe Anybody isn't footing the bill...are You shitting me!Do You realise there are an awful lot of Joe Anybody's dragging their ass's to work every day,paying bills and worrying about their kids tuition fund,and paying their lawful share of taxes ...thereby the funds are raised to buy all those neato engines of death and destruction You so revel in telling us about...it would appear a grasp of reality was not one of the prerequisites for all that training....

meatcleaver -> RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! (7/13/2008 2:44:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephann Without US intervention, which language would Europe speak today; German, or Russian? I don't think this translates to the moral 'right' the US has claimed the past sixty years in terms of our national policy. Pragmatically, for good or ill, might makes right. I think the US is quickly losing both between an enormous war debt and a staunch slide in economic prowess. Stephan Europeans would be speaking the same languages as now, Germany would have lost the war, it would have been a longer war and one of attrition but Germany would have lost because they lost the Battle of Britain, their navy was too small, the U-boat war failed, they had limited access to resources and slowly resistance would have grown in the occupied countries. Russia's grip would have eventually been loosened from Eastern Europe because they were hated by everyone they occupied. The US entry into the war and their manufacturing power shortened the war, the outcome was still equivocal, crap if you were east European, acceptable if you were western European. Actually my parents generation thought and still do, that the sun shines out of American arses. My generation who witnessed Vietnam and US foreign policy since, see the US as just another imperial power that took over from the imperial west Europeans. No difference. The US will go the same way as other imperial powers that ended up with a bloated military, too many foreign jollies draining the economy and potential new powers concentrating on building their economies rather than focusing on international hegemony. They will be leapfrogged and their international influence diminished.

ModeratorEleven -> RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! (7/13/2008 2:50:55 PM)
Folks, chill out. I'm not going to say it again. XI

caitlyn -> RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! (7/14/2008 8:53:52 PM)
To me, claiming Germany would have lost, because they lost the Battle of Britain, is as big a leap as the Americans that take credit for winning the war. Neither Germany, nor Britain had the power to deliver a knockout blow against the other. On it's own, Bomber Command did not have the resources to halt German production. Germany lacked the ability to project power, and didn't fair well in the field against the British Army. Early war battles, really can't tell us what would have happened four or five years down the road, between two nations with compairable military potential. When looking at German might as opposed by the Soviets or American, there is measurable inferiority, and none of the advanced systems Germany was working on, could effectively strike at either one. When looking at Germany verses the United Kingdom, there is no measurable inferiority by either side ... each had it's advantages, and future German systems must be strongly considered due to the proximity of the two nations.

meatcleaver -> RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! (7/15/2008 4:48:17 AM)
The United Kingdom wasn't only Germany's enemy or I would agree with you. Germany rather foolishly started a war on two fronts and it struggled to resource a war on one front. Germany failed to defeat Britain, Britain had a superior navy and airforce and Germany's U-boat war failed, its invasion of Russian petered out because they couldn't supply its front line. While Hitler's Germany could have remained a continental power for sometime, like Napoleon, he would have been chasing around putting one fire out and then another. Germnany had been preparing for war for 12 years and couldn't defeat Britain who had only been preparing for three. German weapon systems were way off anything credible. Its V bombs were terror weapons but they made no material impact and were easily shot down once they were understood. Hitler was also well away from nuclear weapons. One of the problems Germany had was that it had so many different weapons when it really needed to concentrate on production and not new systems. Many of its tanks required different spare parts from each other which was a big negative in many conflicts throughout the war. As for disrupting German production, that wasn't a deciding factor in the war, Germany struggled to get resources for its production. Despite Germany's famed efficiency, it wasn't very efficient, Britain was building two aircraft to every German one and was manufacturing munitions at a far more efficient rate. Britain had the sea power to prevent German supply by sea and supply by land wasn't that efficient because all supplies had to go through hostile territory and even its allie Italy was a land full of communists that were willing to fight its own regime and Germany. Even most of the German military command understood that not defeating Britain meant the war couldn't be won and some sort of accommodation had to be made and that was before they invaded Russia.

Moloch -> RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! (7/15/2008 7:22:53 PM)
Half of Europe would be speaking Russian right now cleaver. Who was going to kick them out? Hungarians perhaps? They tried, ever seen an entire human digestive system wrapped around the tank treads?

Alumbrado -> RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! (7/15/2008 8:04:19 PM)
quote: Its V bombs were terror weapons but they made no material impact and were easily shot down once they were understood. In a word, No... Though there were many V1-s taken out by pilots and by ground crews, nothing was 'easily' about it, (Both wing flipping and closing to cannon range created risks for the pilots, and the stainless steel skin of the German rockets was proof against longer range weapons) and the material impact was significant, not the least of which was in diverting Allied resources to repeatedly bomb launch sites and fake launch sites. And when they did get through, the nearly 2,000 pounds of HE caused damage on multiple levels, as in Antwerp. The Allied war bureaucracy was marginally less obdurate than their German counterparts in recognizing the value and threat of the rockets, and an earlier and better supported start to the V program (particularly the supersonic V-2s) could have been a decisive factor.

Moloch -> RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! (7/16/2008 7:26:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado quote: Its V bombs were terror weapons but they made no material impact and were easily shot down once they were understood. In a word, No... Though there were many V1-s taken out by pilots and by ground crews, nothing was 'easily' about it, (Both wing flipping and closing to cannon range created risks for the pilots, and the stainless steel skin of the German rockets was proof against longer range weapons) and the material impact was significant, not the least of which was in diverting Allied resources to repeatedly bomb launch sites and fake launch sites. And when they did get through, the nearly 2,000 pounds of HE caused damage on multiple levels, as in Antwerp. The Allied war bureaucracy was marginally less obdurate than their German counterparts in recognizing the value and threat of the rockets, and an earlier and better supported start to the V program (particularly the supersonic V-2s) could have been a decisive factor. Radar +Guided AAA > V2 V2 Flies in a straight line once they figured that out the bombs were a nusiance, it had only psychological impact and no actual impact on war effort.

Alumbrado -> RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! (7/16/2008 10:04:04 PM)
They were not in use for a long enough time to assess their impact. That doesn't mean they weren't capable of having one. Air launched V missiles had already added quite a wrinkle to defending against them. Thinking that all they were was terrifying noisemakers is an error, they were sophisticated beyond the capabilities of available defenses, and they were potentially quite lethal. Good thing that the Germans dragged their feet as long as they did.

Moloch -> RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! (7/17/2008 4:18:26 PM)
quote: was terrifying noisemakers is an error, they were sophisticated beyond the capabilities of available defenses, and they were potentially quite lethal. Good thing that the Germans dragged t quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado They were not in use for a long enough time to assess their impact. That doesn't mean they weren't capable of having one. Air launched V missiles had already added quite a wrinkle to defending against them. Thinking that all they were was terrifying noisemakers is an error, they were sophisticated beyond the capabilities of available defenses, and they were potentially quite lethal. Good thing that the Germans dragged their feet as long as they did. Terrifying yes, noisy yes, effective no. The allies knew the launch sites the missliles could only fly in a straight line, they werent much threat after allies figured out how to use them. It was a psycological weapon. It had not impact on the front lines or the war effort if it did it would be used on Eastern front almost exclusivley.

Alumbrado -> RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! (7/17/2008 4:38:30 PM)
The allies repeatedly bombed fake and empty sites, and had difficulty stopping air launched V1s, let alone the supersonic V2s. Early defensive successes were due in no small part to the German's working out the bugs, and as fast as the Allies developed something, the Germans countered it, before they simply ran out of time. None of that makes a hit from 2,000 pounds of HE 'ineffective'. The 'noisy but harmless' was smart British propaganda to keep the people from becoming demoralized....but if that is the best information you've got, there is some great reading on the matter.... I'd suggest you start with Antwerp. And Sarpedon Press has a book co-authored by Benjamin King called Impact that is not short on details.

Moloch -> RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! (7/18/2008 2:21:16 PM)
2000 pounds of HE is a pathetic amount compared to what a flight of B-17's could deliver. Antwer got about 3 V-2's per day. They dropped about 1600 V2's in 6 months. Thats 1600X2000lbs of HE would be 320000 of HE. Shipping was more difficult put the port stayed open. B-17's average payload was about 5500lbs 17000 B-17's were made. So thats 5500X17000 that would be 93500000 pounds of HE! Dont forget the B-26, Lancaster Bomber etc.. v-2's were a drop in the bucket, they were innacurate and were only good for terrorizing and killing civilians with little to no impact on the actuall war effort.

Politesub53 -> RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! (7/18/2008 4:19:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado The allies repeatedly bombed fake and empty sites, and had difficulty stopping air launched V1s, let alone the supersonic V2s. Early defensive successes were due in no small part to the German's working out the bugs, and as fast as the Allies developed something, the Germans countered it, before they simply ran out of time. None of that makes a hit from 2,000 pounds of HE 'ineffective'. The 'noisy but harmless' was smart British propaganda to keep the people from becoming demoralized....but if that is the best information you've got, there is some great reading on the matter.... I'd suggest you start with Antwerp. And Sarpedon Press has a book co-authored by Benjamin King called Impact that is not short on details. You are right to mention Antwerp, most people are unaware that more V2s were aimied at the port, than at London. However, the point about the V" is that while it was a terror weapon, aimed at civilians, and indeed it curtailed the use of Antwerp as a port, individually the V2 was not only ineffective, but also detracted from other German efforts. Each V2 cost about the same as a German fighterplane, and its arguable 3,000 fighters would have been more effective than 3,000 rockets. Not only was the rocket inaccurate, in the sense it was impossible to hit a specific target, it was also often filled with concrete as the Germans were running out of high explosives. If they had developed proximity fuses, allowing it to be detonated over cities, instead of on impact, and also developed a way of hitting an exact target, it would indeed have been a devastating weapon. As a weapon of sheer terror over a city, it was very effective.

Alumbrado -> RE: Radical Idea - fight Jihadist ideas with ideas!! (7/18/2008 4:51:03 PM)
quote: Each V2 cost about the same as a German fighterplane, Again, that is a function of developing a new weapon.... cost per unit goes down as production ramps up... which never happened due to the surrender.

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