RE: Gay man sues Bible publishers for "emotional pain." (Full Version)

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camille65 -> RE: Gay man sues Bible publishers for "emotional pain." (7/10/2008 6:34:48 PM)

I've never understood how there can be so many translations of the Bible, with them all claiming to have the real translation and know the real meaning. Although it would be impossible I think it would be cool to compare the earliest versions with those still being translated today. It just makes me wonder how different it would be and what impact if any it would have on Christianity today.

Will this lawsuit even go anywhere? Who knows. The lawsuit for me only touches on a small corner of something that I wish I could research myself.




NeedingMore220 -> RE: Gay man sues Bible publishers for "emotional pain." (7/10/2008 6:35:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: newlychaste

It's not a matter of exposure, it's a matter of culture.
My point is simply that Michigan is not known for being steeped in Islamic culture. Hate crimes in the United States levied against U.S. citizens are practically never the result of strong Islamic influences or culture.

I reiterate that Islam and the Qu'ran have nothing to do with this conversation; I do, however, find it amusing.

-----
"The Dude abides."



The Nation of Islam was founded by Louis Farrakhan in Detroit, Michigan ... while that is a fringe group of Islam, they do study the Koran.  It follows that this man would have had exposure to the Koran while either growing up in Michigan or while in jail for ten years.  So ... why pick and choose which religion's holy books he decides to sue?  Hence, how the Koran enters into the conversation.  If he was in Utah, I'd question why he didn't sue the Book of Mormon publishers also ...




Vendaval -> RE: Gay man sues Bible publishers for "emotional pain." (7/10/2008 6:37:21 PM)

He should have been reading, The Ethical Slut instead.
But seriously, this seems a case of a frivolous lawsuit and a bit of free publicity for his career.

(from the OP's link)

"Fowler concludes with a description of himself as a "small business owner, part-time college student, member of the Christian Writer's Guild, freelance writer for the Michigan Front Page, and author of two new books.""




newlychaste -> RE: Gay man sues Bible publishers for "emotional pain." (7/10/2008 6:38:59 PM)

Sigh.

I quit.

Either you people just have a funny sense of humor, or you're just not "big picture" types. Is Dearborn a town? As in "one town"? One town in one state? Louis Farrakhan? One crazy person?

And, in response to the "emptying a clip and hitting a Muslim" comment:
"You can't crash an airplane into a building in the U.S. without killing a whole lot of Christians, and then have them declare war on a neighboring country and kill over 50,000 people." Ha ha ha.

http://www.marriedtothesea.com/042208/oops-thats-not-funny.gif

-----
"The Dude abides."




NeedingMore220 -> RE: Gay man sues Bible publishers for "emotional pain." (7/10/2008 6:40:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: newlychaste
But according to the Pew forum, Islam accounts for a staggering--holy Jesus, hold onto your sandals--0.6% of the United States religious demographic. I'd say that hardly accounts for an inquiry into how Islam negatively affects United States citizens (unless it's descrimination against persons of Islamic descent).


But this lawsuit isn't about United States citizens... it's about one man who, really, is out for publicity only.  This lawsuit will probably (hopefully!) be tossed out as being without merit.




Thadius -> RE: Gay man sues Bible publishers for "emotional pain." (7/10/2008 6:43:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

I've never understood how there can be so many translations of the Bible, with them all claiming to have the real translation and know the real meaning. Although it would be impossible I think it would be cool to compare the earliest versions with those still being translated today. It just makes me wonder how different it would be and what impact if any it would have on Christianity today.

Will this lawsuit even go anywhere? Who knows. The lawsuit for me only touches on a small corner of something that I wish I could research myself.



There are ways to study the changes... I would recommend getting your hands on a few versions of concordences, Strongs is a pretty good one.  Many of these will document different changes, or how or why a word was translated or transliterated.  Sort of like in the other topic... Armageddon has taken on a meaning of its own, originally translated into Mount (hill) of Megiddo.  Or another prime example is the way the word Easter is used now, which was originally Ishtar a fertility goddes, thinking about that helps to understand why we see all of the rabbits and eggs.

Knowledge can only set you free, or in the converse confuse the hell out of some of us.
Thadius




thishereboi -> RE: Gay man sues Bible publishers for "emotional pain." (7/10/2008 6:44:03 PM)

Dearborn is a city in Michigan. One with the largest Islamic populations in the country. I said that in response to your comment that "..... Michigan is not known for being steeped in Islamic culture"

Not sure what your comic is supposed to mean, It's not funny.




NeedingMore220 -> RE: Gay man sues Bible publishers for "emotional pain." (7/10/2008 6:44:39 PM)

My dear, you're the one turning this into a debate about terrorism.  I thought it was about religion and religious books and ethics.  Silly me. 




newlychaste -> RE: Gay man sues Bible publishers for "emotional pain." (7/10/2008 6:47:52 PM)

It's not about terrorism.
It's not about Islam or Muslims or the Qu'ran.
It's about this gay man from Michigan and his troubles with Bibles.

"Why didn't he just sue the Qu'ran printing presses?"

Just... nevermind.

-----
"The Dude abides."




DomAviator -> RE: Gay man sues Bible publishers for "emotional pain." (7/10/2008 6:53:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedingMore220

My dear, you're the one turning this into a debate about terrorism.  I thought it was about religion and religious books and ethics.  Silly me. 


Needing, hes their advocate and "voice of reason".. LOL The funniest part of all is that this guys lawsuit has absolutely no merit whatsoever because nobody FORCED him to read the bible. I have a book of mormon I have never opened but took just to make the Mormon missionaries go away... Nobody made the guy read the bible...




Thadius -> RE: Gay man sues Bible publishers for "emotional pain." (7/10/2008 6:55:38 PM)

quote:

original text can be found : http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_isla.htm
Speaking generally, religious beliefs within the world's major faith groups are based on four main foundations: revelation in the form of a holy text; religious tradition; logic and reason; and personal experience.




[image]http://www.religioustolerance.org/_themes/topo/topbul1d.gif[/image]
More liberal movements within these religions often tend to stress logic, reason, and personal experience. This includes scientific findings. It is only since about 1950 that homosexuality has been seriously studied by human sexuality researchers. Liberal individuals and groups within Christianity, Islam and other religions have been quick to incorporate scientific findings within their ethical and religious beliefs. They generally regard homosexuality as a sexual orientation which is ethically neutral, fixed, unchosen, and is normal and natural for a minority of adults.

[image]http://www.religioustolerance.org/_themes/topo/topbul1d.gif[/image]
More conservative movements tend to stress revelation and tradition. Their beliefs are anchored to the past. Their beliefs are much less liable to change rapidly. They generally regard homosexuality as a deviate and disordered behavior, which is immoral, changeable, chosen, abnormal and unnatural.
A person's beliefs about homosexuality tend to be determined less by their religion, then where their beliefs lie on the liberal-conservative divide. For this reason, conservative Christians and Muslims tend to have similar beliefs about the nature and origin(s) of homosexuality, as well as God's attitude towards homosexuals.

I bolded what I found to be an important comment.

Just thought I would share some other points of view.




newlychaste -> RE: Gay man sues Bible publishers for "emotional pain." (7/10/2008 7:08:57 PM)

Thank you, Thadius. In this sense, I've always considered Buddhism to be one of the most liberal religions. Notice how nobody (but the Chinese) ever seems to have a problem with them. (Why didn't he sue the publishers of the Threefold Lotus Sutra?)

While that is interesting food for thought, my opinion is that this individual's quandry is a reflection of those same religious "growing pains," and has some merit. Sure, nobody forced him to pick up a Bible or believe in Jesus, but that's exactly why it bothers him. People have to have faith in something. Maybe the Bible is just prevalent prison reading material.

For some of us, the Bible is just glorified fiction unfortunately raised to the level of national policy which has had a historically negative impact. (1938 radio broadcast of The War of the Worlds, anyone?) Incidentally, I recall someone trying to sue God... whatever happened to that?

-----
"The Dude abides."




NeedingMore220 -> RE: Gay man sues Bible publishers for "emotional pain." (7/10/2008 7:12:37 PM)

So you do believe his case has some merit and should be heard?  Do you also believe he is entitled to damages?  If so, how much would you give him for his voluntarily picking up a book and believing in it and yet being offended and emotionally damaged by it? 




logos27abd -> RE: Gay man sues Bible publishers for "emotional pain." (7/10/2008 7:17:34 PM)

The two words in question in the vice list in 1 Cor 6:9 are "malakos" and "arsenokoites" (here in rough English transliteration).

"Malakos" in particular has an interesting translation history. It's an adjective meaning "soft"; however, used pejoratively in antiquity, "malakos" was often used in a manner similar to "sissy" and - in a sexual context - could refer to a male who is not the dominant partner in a relationship [there is a later play in which an old "hag" grabs a young man and leads him away, saying, "Come along my little malakos" -- with obviously heterosexual intentions in mind.] In secular antiquity, "malakos" was sometimes applied to men who liked to read too much (as opposed to physical or military training) or who enjoyed the company of women too much (even if their interest in the women was for heterosexual purposes). Its history of interpretation in 1 Cor 6:9 includes (not an exhaustive list): the morally lax, those who masturbate, effeminate (men), weaklings, catamites, and boy prostitutes.

"Arsenokoites" is a compound word consisting of "arsen" (male) and "koites" (bed; "lying [down]"). Paul's use of the term in 1 Cor 6:9 may be the earliest extant use of the term; one theory is that the combo is a reference to the LXX's Greek translation of Lev 18:22 (lit: "And with a male you shall not lie the lying of a woman") in which the two terms both appear and that perhaps Paul coined it himself since neither Philo or Josephus use this word (or show any knowledge that such a word exists) when they condemn same-sex male acts in their writings. Suggestions for its translation in 1 Cor 6:9 usually involve the word "sodomite" ("abusers of themselves with men/mankind" is another that was especially popular around the time the KJV was first translated). One problem is that in the Sibylline Oracles, arsenokoitia appears in a vice list that contains economic vices (e.g., theft) and murder, not sexual vices (there is a list for sexual vices later in the very same book and arsenokoitia is conspicuously missing).

One modern tendency among some translations (especially the looser kinds of translations) is to translate the two terms collectively as "homosexuals," or at least in one case as "homosexual perverts" ... since one term could have been used to refer to the passive partner in male homogenital relations and the other to the active partner. Of course, this translation is misleading for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that neither term in Greek can logically refer to women (whereas "homosexual" is inclusive of either gender). [The only possible "clear" reference to female same-sex acts in the entire Bible is in Rom 1:26 -- however, that particular intepretation of the women's activities is solely based on the subsequent verse in which male homogenital acts are discussed (and condemned).] Also, "homosexual" refers to an orientation whereas what is actually condemned are sexual acts between men (regardless of what we today would call a sexual orientation).

With regard to the gay man is trying to sue the two Bible publishers ... even though the history of translation of 1 Cor 6:9 is questionable (to put it mildly), the most often cited text against homosexuality is Lev 18:22 (and 20:13), followed by Rom 1:26-27 (which, like 1 Corinthians, was also written by Paul). Genesis 19 (note the similar // story in Judges 19) and, to some degree, Jude vv. 6-8 are some other popular passages, albeit more objectively problematic ones. Writings from other Jewish authors contemporary to Paul also clearly condemn male homogenital acts (not just pederasty), often again following Lev 18:22 in the Torah; the condemnation of male same-sex acts is something in which the ancient Jewish authors took great pride (including the prescribed death penalty for those who participate in such acts), citing it as an indication of moral superiority over the Gentiles. In other words, the problem isn't just with how some modern committees chose to translate 1 Cor 6:9 (which is not an easy task) and the problems that homosexuals face (esp. from fanatics like Fred Phelps) would not end even if there were to be a different translation for that one passage ...




jlf1961 -> RE: Gay man sues Bible publishers for "emotional pain." (7/10/2008 7:19:56 PM)

Okay, this has really gone far beyond stupid lawsuits, it has reached the point of being utterly ignorant.

However, not one to pass up a free lunch, should this go anywhere, I do believe I am going to sue various history book publishers for making indians look like the bad guys, the wall street journal because the information inside did not help me get rich, the publishers of the joy of sex because there was nothing in there about the pains  of parenthood.




Demspotis -> RE: Gay man sues Bible publishers for "emotional pain." (7/10/2008 7:21:03 PM)

I wonder if he read the Tanakh/"Old Testament", especially the Law given to Moses? Whereas the "New Testament" merely classifies homosexuals as sinners equivalent to murderers and adulterers, the "Old Testament" names homosexual acts as crimes punishable by death. That would be even more traumatic to read, wouldn't it?





Thadius -> RE: Gay man sues Bible publishers for "emotional pain." (7/10/2008 7:26:10 PM)

Thanks for the research.




Isabelah -> RE: Gay man sues Bible publishers for "emotional pain." (7/10/2008 7:27:18 PM)

~~Fast reply~~

ROTFL
He has too much time on his hands. I hope the judge tells him to stop reading the Bible and recommends therapy.

His case has no merit and he deserves more emotional pain by the judicial system for wasting its time and our tax paying dollars.

Isabelah





MissSCD -> RE: Gay man sues Bible publishers for "emotional pain." (7/10/2008 7:27:19 PM)

Even if there are thousands of versions of the Bible out there, it is basically the same and was inspired to different authors by a higher power.
Regards, MissSCD


quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSCD

Oh, btw, it is going to be hard to sue the publishers because they did not write the Bible.   [8|]
 
SCD


They edited it.







logos27abd -> RE: Gay man sues Bible publishers for "emotional pain." (7/10/2008 7:31:06 PM)

My pleasure, Thadius ... though I admit, most of the info was from memory. I wrote my entire MA thesis on that specific verse (1 Cor 6:9) and focusing on the meaning of those two words in particular (including a small section addressing the history of translation, since it is quite fascinating -- in my own very nerdish opinion, of course [;)]).  




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