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RE: Intelligent Design Controversy - 11/13/2005 11:26:18 AM   
anthrosub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

Intelligent design is as much a religion as christianity or any other belief system.

Religon has a place in schools as much as science has. It gives people choice.
In amy country, the majority religion comes at the forefront of all religions taught. The difficulty comes when only ONE way is pushed.

I had a discussion with my childs teacher at the parents evening.We were discussing what is taught. Like the majority of schools in the UK, Christianity is the main focus, with topics covering buddhism, Islam, taoism, hinduism...etc... In the later years, if you take RE as one of your core subjects, you study the differences between the two major religions in the area. Now I was explained that for where we live, this is Christianity and Islam. I thought this was really strange and remarked on it. In my area, there is one Mosque. There are 10 Buddhist temples and the majority belief in my local area is pagan and wicca. We have a huge druid following as well as holistic and 'natural' followings.

Intelligent design and objectivism is also taught. I am not sure if you have children anthro, but there is a huge falicy that religion taught in schools is onesided, at least here in the UK, its taught diversely. Maybe you could contact your local schools or education facilities and find out exactly what is happening locally for you if one is that concerned on how the future generations are being taught. Ultimately its up to parents to teach their children anthro, or at least let them experience different points of view. My children have celebrated diwali, and my son (because its just been is birthday) is studying about a boys bar mitzva. Being christian doesnt blind my children and stop them from involving themselves in different faiths or belief systems, including Intelligent design.

Peace and Rapture



Dark~Angel,
I always enjoy our exchanges. To start off, I don't have any children just so you know.

As far as religion having a place in schools...I agree and hope you saw that what I was pointing out as an issue is exactly what you're saying about having ONE religion pushed on people. Having intelligent design introduced in a science class is not a choice.

Regardless of the posts here bringing up the questionability of what truth is, the bottom line with intelligent design is it's not science and doesn't belong in a science class. There's no empirical evidence of intelligent design. Instead, it's being slipped under the door on the basis that science doesn't provide a 100% explanation of existence, which it can never do and the ID advocates know it (as do the scientists).

As an example of the infinity of learning, think of astronomy. We have incredibly sensitive telescopes that can look deep into space but no matter how much further we can see, all we end up with is knowing that there's much more out there to see. The same thing is happening in the opposite direction (sub atomic particles). It's gotten so we cannot see beyond a certain point because the matter attempting to be observed is smaller than the wavelength of light. Plus, it's getting difficult to tell if what is being observed would be behaving the same way if we weren't looking at it because the lightwaves influence what's happening. This raises questions about objective observation which is a big issue for the scientific approach.

Back to religion, I rejected it outright at the age of 8. But became very interested in it once I was in my late teens. I was grateful to be able to approach religion with a mature, discerning intellect instead of having it imprinted on me while going through my developing years where I would have no choice. Choice! That's the difference that ultra-religious people fear. Destroying the ability to have a choice is the only way they can 100% guarantee avoiding obsolecence.

anthrosub


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RE: Intelligent Design Controversy - 11/13/2005 12:28:31 PM   
HenryMiller


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I'd like to read a good book on ID pro. It seems to me to a plausible theory, that the macro and micro universe is simply to complicated not have designer. What does ID even have to do with Christianity?

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RE: Intelligent Design Controversy - 11/13/2005 12:29:13 PM   
HenryMiller


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HenryMiller

I'd like to read a good book on ID pro. It seems to me to a plausible theory, that the macro and micro universe is simply too complicated to not have designer. What does ID even have to do with Christianity?


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RE: Intelligent Design Controversy - 11/13/2005 12:33:23 PM   
HenryMiller


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sorry about the double (now triple) post, but I don't see how to delete it.

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RE: Intelligent Design Controversy - 11/13/2005 12:46:44 PM   
happypervert


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quote:

What does ID even have to do with Christianity?

It is a way for the Christian right to sneak creationism into school curriculums while avoiding the blatantly religious message of creationism. In other words, they say there is some intelligent design without calling it God, though it ceartainly implies the intelligent designer is God. Tricky, huh?

< Message edited by happypervert -- 11/13/2005 12:48:05 PM >


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RE: Intelligent Design Controversy - 11/13/2005 1:20:16 PM   
JohnWarren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: happypervert

quote:

What does ID even have to do with Christianity?

It is a way for the Christian right to sneak creationism into school curriculums while avoiding the blatantly religious message of creationism. In other words, they say there is some intelligent design without calling it God, though it ceartainly implies the intelligent designer is God. Tricky, huh?


I'd love to teach it... with a nice long session on how our bodies are poorly designed and obviously retrofitted from previous models. Some god, can't even get a spine right!

Maybe we can bring a suit against god (his agents and representatives) for medical malpractice. A all knowing being should be held at least to the standard we hold those who make children's toys.

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RE: Intelligent Design Controversy - 11/13/2005 1:39:00 PM   
DesertRat


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And what about the knee? Like the Pinto, it's just a disaster waiting to happen!

Seriously, though, the incredible amount of variability in the universe seems to me to be the best indicator of its purely mechanical nature and reinforces the idea that things occur by chance but always conforming to their physical makeup. So...I am empirical and an atheist. But that doesn't diminish the awe I feel when contemplating the world I live in.

Bob

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RE: Intelligent Design Controversy - 11/13/2005 2:51:47 PM   
candystripper


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quote:

As long as ID also makes allowances for other beliefs besides Christianity, I have no problem with teaching an extremely broad group of theories from Flying Spaghetti Monsterism to Alien Terraforming in public schools.

SadistDave


i don't know whether You wrote this tongue-in-cheek, but You would be amazed at what teachers are expected to cram into a school day; and then try to resist the urge to "teach to the tests" so that standardised scores increase and they are retained. It's a difficult, pretty much thankless and low-paid job that requires top-notch education to pursue.

The idea that every theory of creation formented by any religious sect should be taught alongside evolution is flawwed not just for the time it would consume....but also because evolution is a provable scientific fact and the religious explanations are -- religious. i feel religion does not belong in PUBLIC schools, period.

candystripper

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RE: Intelligent Design Controversy - 11/13/2005 3:03:44 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper
but also because evolution is a provable scientific fact.
candystripper


The THEORY of evolution has not risen to the ranks of scientific fact. In fact there are numger of scientists that see it as fundamentally flawed and ignoring some very common contrary examples...alligators, crocodiles, anhingas, loons and cormorants to name a few.

Not that is here nor there as was the same with my post regarding black sheep in Scotland. And furthermore, not that you would catch me in the leastwise accomodating christian thought.

Dogma is dogma and it is unfortunate that so many are dogmatized by the dogs.

Just meandering.


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RE: Intelligent Design Controversy - 11/13/2005 3:11:07 PM   
darkinshadows


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There are many undiscovered facts on evolution and also many unproved theories from a scientific point of view.
There are also many religious claims that have been affirmed by scientific experimentations and discoveries.

Not that this helps much... lol

Peace and Rapture


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RE: Intelligent Design Controversy - 11/13/2005 3:32:30 PM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

Back to religion, I rejected it outright at the age of 8. But became very interested in it once I was in my late teens. I was grateful to be able to approach religion with a mature, discerning intellect instead of having it imprinted on me while going through my developing years where I would have no choice. Choice! That's the difference that ultra-religious people fear. Destroying the ability to have a choice is the only way they can 100% guarantee avoiding obsolecence.

anthrosub


Jesus said that if only we could reach deep inside ourselves, then we will see that God is within us. God did not give us religion. To know, to understand, we must first become poor and lose that which has fed us, clothed us...

Buddha stated, that to know thyself and know ten thousand things, which is his way of saying you will know the source. In Buddhism the source is named nothing, which in it contains everything and the infinite.

Gods name is me.

Peace and Rapture


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RE: Intelligent Design Controversy - 11/13/2005 4:04:19 PM   
DesertRat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper
but also because evolution is a provable scientific fact.
candystripper


The THEORY of evolution has not risen to the ranks of scientific fact. In fact there are numger of scientists that see it as fundamentally flawed and ignoring some very common contrary examples...alligators, crocodiles, anhingas, loons and cormorants to name a few.

Not that is here nor there as was the same with my post regarding black sheep in Scotland. And furthermore, not that you would catch me in the leastwise accomodating christian thought.

Dogma is dogma and it is unfortunate that so many are dogmatized by the dogs.

Just meandering.



That seems to be the most commonly expressed misunderstanding of evolution. It's the one I hear raised the most. Actually, evolution is a scientific fact. The details of the mechanism are still subject to theorizing and will, indeed, never be fully understood. This is true of every form of scientific investigation. Every question answered leads to many more new ones to examine. There is no scientific finish line.

Bob

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RE: Intelligent Design Controversy - 11/13/2005 4:23:22 PM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

That seems to be the most commonly expressed misunderstanding of evolution. It's the one I hear raised the most. Actually, evolution is a scientific fact. The details of the mechanism are still subject to theorizing and will, indeed, never be fully understood. This is true of every form of scientific investigation. Every question answered leads to many more new ones to examine. There is no scientific finish line.

Bob


Greetings Bob

Technically, Evolution is a theory not a fact. Biologists admit they cannot know or explain the exact mechanism of evolution and there are many 'missing links' as well as to whether a organism evolves, or whether it is a seperation from the original source. Its purely theory with no basis in exact factual truth.

Peace and Rapture


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RE: Intelligent Design Controversy - 11/13/2005 6:34:09 PM   
DesertRat


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Well, the "theory or fact" argument can go on forever, much like the "floor wax or desert topping" debate in the Saturday Night Live sketch.

I am sure you can find some biologists who claim evolution is unproven. I am sure you can even find some who will tell you the earth is only ca. 6,000 years old. You can find many more who will point to the solid evidence supporting evolution and the wealth of knowledge concerning the mechanisms involved. Genetic mutation and the natural selection of traits that offer survival advantages is not really that hard to understand. The "missing links" issue was discussed a lot in the first half of the 20th Century, but is really a red herring offered up by creationists nowadays. Thanks to the dynamic reshaping processes of the planet, the fossil record is incomplete, so there will always be gaps in lineage. Still, I am not aware of any "what the fuck?" type enigmas or paradoxes.

Anyone who cares should go to the library and check out some recently published books on the topic to learn just how much IS known about evolution. We see examples of it in our day to day lives. Antibiotic-resistant bacteria. Pesticide resistant bugs. Mutating viruses. Gotta stop....I'm creeping myself out.

Bob

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RE: Intelligent Design Controversy - 11/13/2005 8:04:46 PM   
anthrosub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkangel

quote:

Back to religion, I rejected it outright at the age of 8. But became very interested in it once I was in my late teens. I was grateful to be able to approach religion with a mature, discerning intellect instead of having it imprinted on me while going through my developing years where I would have no choice. Choice! That's the difference that ultra-religious people fear. Destroying the ability to have a choice is the only way they can 100% guarantee avoiding obsolecence.

anthrosub


Jesus said that if only we could reach deep inside ourselves, then we will see that God is within us. God did not give us religion. To know, to understand, we must first become poor and lose that which has fed us, clothed us...

Buddha stated, that to know thyself and know ten thousand things, which is his way of saying you will know the source. In Buddhism the source is named nothing, which in it contains everything and the infinite.

Gods name is me.

Peace and Rapture



Yes, God is within us because God is us. There's just that little wrinkle of accepting that we externalized God and put it, him, her, them, or whatever your preference may be "out there" to be worshipped because it's difficult to worship one's self. God exists because we exist and the idea of God is in our head. I know you'll disagree with this and that's okay with me. We all have our preferences.

The reference to becoming poor and lose that which has fed us, clothed us, is a nice way of saying we must lose our distractions (Aristotle's "passions") in order to have a clear head and experience life directly without distortion. This is contained in most Eastern philosophies as well (just as you referenced the words of the Buddha).

Personally, I think religion is just fine for adults to become involved with if they choose. I have a real problem with it being taught to children who have yet to develop their own mind yet. In a way, it's like the adult religious community is continually hijacking the next generation, imprinting their minds with beliefs before they have a chance to mature and choose for themselves. Those children grow up and do it all over again, and again, and so on.

anthrosub


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RE: Intelligent Design Controversy - 11/13/2005 8:08:15 PM   
Sensualips


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quote:

It is a way for the Christian right to sneak creationism into school curriculums while avoiding the blatantly religious message of creationism. In other words, they say there is some intelligent design without calling it God, though it ceartainly implies the intelligent designer is God. Tricky, huh?


And sometimes effective.

For example, Kansas is now the fifth state to adopt science standards that simultanoeusly teach evolution is "controversial" and allow for intelligent design to be taught as an alternative explanation. Basically supporters are using scientific inquiry to inject religion into public schools. This is the second time Kansas has moved away from evolution - eliminating all references to evolution in the state standards in 1999. Those standards were later repealed.

Of course, Kansas also endured a state wide campaign against gay marriage. An amendment to the Kansas Constitution banning same-sex marriage and civil unions was voted for by 70% of the electorate a few months ago.

Hmph.

I really should move.

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RE: Intelligent Design Controversy - 11/13/2005 8:24:00 PM   
anthrosub


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Evolution is a theory based on information you can observe happening right before your eyes if you find out where to look. No it's not like watching a bird take flight or a school of salmon navigating upstream. But it is happening.

There was a time not too long ago that people laughed at the idea of continents "floating" on a sea of lava but today it's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. The reason they doubted it is because it happens so slowly it's practically invisible. But today we have satellites in orbit that can measure the movement of the continents down to inches.

Evoluton is a very slow process for the most part and just because we don't have every last piece of information pertaining to evolution doesn't make it a lie, it makes it an incomplete explanation. But at least what we do know can be witnessed over and over again as many times as you please. It's really not about fact or theory...it's about how much do we know at this point in time. One thing is certain, we will learn more as time passes.

anthrosub


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RE: Intelligent Design Controversy - 11/13/2005 9:19:06 PM   
luvdragonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

quote:

As long as ID also makes allowances for other beliefs besides Christianity, I have no problem with teaching an extremely broad group of theories from Flying Spaghetti Monsterism to Alien Terraforming in public schools.

SadistDave


i don't know whether You wrote this tongue-in-cheek, but You would be amazed at what teachers are expected to cram into a school day; and then try to resist the urge to "teach to the tests" so that standardised scores increase and they are retained. It's a difficult, pretty much thankless and low-paid job that requires top-notch education to pursue.

The idea that every theory of creation formented by any religious sect should be taught alongside evolution is flawwed not just for the time it would consume....but also because evolution is a provable scientific fact and the religious explanations are -- religious. i feel religion does not belong in PUBLIC schools, period.

candystripper



This is one reason why many people - myself included - homeschool.

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RE: Intelligent Design Controversy - 11/14/2005 9:51:39 PM   
mystictryst


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Master and I actually had a very heated debate on this subject Saturday night... Not sure I can add anything further, but can share my opinions..

Intelligent Design isn't a theory. I don't believe it can be called an "alternative" to Evolution.

Intelligent Design isn't science. It cannot be held to the same standards scientific theory is held to. One cannot test intelligent design. I can burn carbon to date things, I can burn peanuts and marshmallows and define a caloric content. I can see and test (some) evolutionary links between primates and human beings.

Saying that "The world is very complex, therefore, something "higher" must be responsible" isn't at theory, it cannot be tested, and it could never be proven.

I can also see how Evolution can be viewed as a religion as well.

So, if there is no ID, should we remove Evolution as well? Would ID give fair play to other religions of the world? I remember back to Grade 5 religion class - it was Christian only. It was public school... Granted that was 20 years ago, but Islam, Catholicism, Paganism, and Judiasm aren't new innovations and we never heard a word of them in Religion class...

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RE: Intelligent Design Controversy - 11/14/2005 10:02:51 PM   
angelus04


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I personally don't believe in Intelligent Design but then I'm not a xtian either I worship the gods and goddesses not the xtian god

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