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FISA Amendments Act of 2008 - 7/10/2008 10:37:29 PM   
Casie


Posts: 450
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline 		What does everyone think of this passing?

Yeah warrentless wire tapping!! I think it's a breach of the legal rights of the government. There is no expectation of privacy in the USA anymore.

Fire away
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: FISA Amendments Act of 2008 - 7/10/2008 10:47:45 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		The Consitution doesn't say a word about private businesses invading privacy, and the government has attempted to use this as an end run before, with private police and jailers, etc....last I checked, the courts said that if the private actors are used to the government's advantage, then the same restrictions apply as would apply to the government.

The wrinkle here is that the government isn't directly paying the providers of this information for it, they are just being 'good citizens' in turning it over.

(in reply to Casie)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: FISA Amendments Act of 2008 - 7/10/2008 11:11:32 PM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline 		I love it! Whatever it takes to ensure security in a dangerous world full of homicidal enemies among us. I dont care about "privacy" I dont do anything illegal. If homeland security wants to know what I want on my pizza they are free to listen in when I order it...

Edited to add: Besides they wont be listening to you and I anyway... It will be Habib Al Hassar Hussein Amar Mohajadeen El Quiafainy who they will be listening to... Not good ol Kev!

< Message edited by DomAviator -- 7/10/2008 11:13:38 PM >

(in reply to Alumbrado)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: FISA Amendments Act of 2008 - 7/10/2008 11:49:40 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		First thought,
Have you read it?  It applies to overseas communications that pass through US infrastructure.  It still requires that a judge review the tap.  It is a good law.

Second thought,
It's amazing how the Democrat party's savior vowed to philibuster any FISA law, and especially anyone that included immunity for telecoms.  This was one of his big stump points during the primaries.  Yet he voted in support of the bill,  as a sidenote Clinton voted against it.





_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to Casie)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: FISA Amendments Act of 2008 - 7/11/2008 4:51:29 AM   
housesub4you


Posts: 1879
Joined: 4/2/2008
Status: offline 		Thaduis;

Up you hit the nail on the head with this one.  All the Dems have done is cave in because they are to afraid of Bush saying they don't care about America.

I have not seen any of the "great change" they promised when they tookover. 

Hell they don't even have the balls to have the people arrested they say are in comtempt of Congress

Same shit different party

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: FISA Amendments Act of 2008 - 7/11/2008 4:56:14 AM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		Different decade...

(in reply to housesub4you)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: FISA Amendments Act of 2008 - 7/11/2008 5:12:24 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Casie

What does everyone think of this passing?

Yeah warrentless wire tapping!! I think it's a breach of the legal rights of the government. There is no expectation of privacy in the USA anymore.

Fire away



Everyone for it is SOFT ON CRIME. Of course AT&T is making pretty decent money for this. I'm sure they're not doing it for free, and even at some very small rate, when you're spying on 300,000,000 people's phones, email, website usage, etc, it's going to add up pretty quickly.

I'd say it's on the order of 100,000,000 a month or so. That's a lot of inducement to break the law, isn't it?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Casie)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: FISA Amendments Act of 2008 - 7/11/2008 5:15:10 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

First thought,
Have you read it?  It applies to overseas communications that pass through US infrastructure.  It still requires that a judge review the tap.  It is a good law.



Bullshit.

FIRST: THERE **WAS** NOTHING WRONG WITH THE EXISTING LEGISLATION. They've *always* been able to just start listening, and then go to a secret judge who rubber-stamped their warrant. This is about legitimizing the unlawful payments the government is making to AT&T to *conduct* the surveillance.

Second, If you READ IT, it's so vaguely worded it can, and does apply to ALL TRAFFIC.

Third: The real issue is that everyone FOR this bill is SOFT ON CRIME.

If AT&T breaks the law for 6 years, and spies on YOU, why should they get a "Get out of jail, free" card? And why shouldn't YOU get a check for $100,000 from AT&T in Statutory damages?

Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time!

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 7/11/2008 5:17:40 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: FISA Amendments Act of 2008 - 7/11/2008 10:34:58 AM   
Casie


Posts: 450
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

veryone for it is SOFT ON CRIME. Of course AT&T is making pretty decent money for this. I'm sure they're not doing it for free, and even at some very small rate, when you're spying on 300,000,000 people's phones, email, website usage, etc, it's going to add up pretty quickly.
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

First thought,
Have you read it?  It applies to overseas communications that pass through US infrastructure.  It still requires that a judge review the tap.  It is a good law.



Bullshit.

FIRST: THERE **WAS** NOTHING WRONG WITH THE EXISTING LEGISLATION. They've *always* been able to just start listening, and then go to a secret judge who rubber-stamped their warrant. This is about legitimizing the unlawful payments the government is making to AT&T to *conduct* the surveillance.

Second, If you READ IT, it's so vaguely worded it can, and does apply to ALL TRAFFIC.

Third: The real issue is that everyone FOR this bill is SOFT ON CRIME.

If AT&T breaks the law for 6 years, and spies on YOU, why should they get a "Get out of jail, free" card? And why shouldn't YOU get a check for $100,000 from AT&T in Statutory damages?

Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time!

Couldn't have said it better myself.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: FISA Amendments Act of 2008 - 7/11/2008 10:39:12 AM   
Casie


Posts: 450
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

I love it! Whatever it takes to ensure security in a dangerous world full of homicidal enemies among us. I dont care about "privacy" I dont do anything illegal. If homeland security wants to know what I want on my pizza they are free to listen in when I order it...

Edited to add: Besides they wont be listening to you and I anyway... It will be Habib Al Hassar Hussein Amar Mohajadeen El Quiafainy who they will be listening to... Not good ol Kev!


LMFAO and the Jews thought the measures Hitler took were for their protection as well. I don't care where the calls are coming from. When you are calling someone you expect that your conversation with them is private. It's not about wheather or not you break the law. It's about the expectation of privacy, and that I don't want the government to have that much involvement in my or anyone elses personal life. I don't trust my government that much. Also if HR 1955 passes then they could use this to round up so called home grown terrorist. There are too many ways this could be used. if you think it's all about islamic exteremist, then I would say you are blind.

(in reply to DomAviator)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: FISA Amendments Act of 2008 - 7/11/2008 12:57:48 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

First thought,
Have you read it?  It applies to overseas communications that pass through US infrastructure.  It still requires that a judge review the tap.  It is a good law.



Bullshit.

FIRST: THERE **WAS** NOTHING WRONG WITH THE EXISTING LEGISLATION. They've *always* been able to just start listening, and then go to a secret judge who rubber-stamped their warrant. This is about legitimizing the unlawful payments the government is making to AT&T to *conduct* the surveillance.

Second, If you READ IT, it's so vaguely worded it can, and does apply to ALL TRAFFIC.

Third: The real issue is that everyone FOR this bill is SOFT ON CRIME.

If AT&T breaks the law for 6 years, and spies on YOU, why should they get a "Get out of jail, free" card? And why shouldn't YOU get a check for $100,000 from AT&T in Statutory damages?

Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time!


Uhm... the problem with the original law, is it expired.  There should have never been a sunset clause in it.

If AT&T is doing so under federal orders, who is to blame? The telecom or the executive branch?  What you are suggesting is akin to saying the pilots and crew of the Enola Gay should be liable (civilly) for dropping Big Boy, or suing the manufacturer of the plane itself.

That still doesn't explain the interesting quandry of if the bill is so terrible, why has the candidate of change gone from promising to block it, to voting for it.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: FISA Amendments Act of 2008 - 7/11/2008 1:00:27 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: housesub4you

Thaduis;

Up you hit the nail on the head with this one.  All the Dems have done is cave in because they are to afraid of Bush saying they don't care about America.

I have not seen any of the "great change" they promised when they tookover. 

Hell they don't even have the balls to have the people arrested they say are in comtempt of Congress

Same shit different party


Part of the reason is they are caught between a rock and a hard place.  They have dragged their feet on setting up the ethics committee.  The hypocracy would be even to great for members of congress.  It's good to know that their vacation time hasn't suffered though.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to housesub4you)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: FISA Amendments Act of 2008 - 7/11/2008 5:24:50 PM   
DomAviator


Posts: 1253
Joined: 4/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Casie

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

I love it! Whatever it takes to ensure security in a dangerous world full of homicidal enemies among us. I dont care about "privacy" I dont do anything illegal. If homeland security wants to know what I want on my pizza they are free to listen in when I order it...

Edited to add: Besides they wont be listening to you and I anyway... It will be Habib Al Hassar Hussein Amar Mohajadeen El Quiafainy who they will be listening to... Not good ol Kev!


LMFAO and the Jews thought the measures Hitler took were for their protection as well. I don't care where the calls are coming from. When you are calling someone you expect that your conversation with them is private. It's not about wheather or not you break the law. It's about the expectation of privacy, and that I don't want the government to have that much involvement in my or anyone elses personal life. I don't trust my government that much. Also if HR 1955 passes then they could use this to round up so called home grown terrorist. There are too many ways this could be used. if you think it's all about islamic exteremist, then I would say you are blind.


I dont expect any conversation I have with anyone is private. The only way two people can keep a secret is if one of them is dead. Im being quite serious here - there is no such thing as an expectation of privacy and anyone who thinks there is are deluding themselves. It goes back to that old adage "Never tell tales about a woman she'll hear you no matter how far away she is."

For example, when I was dating a 20 year old I let her drink at my home. A do gooder called the cops, and they didnt give a shit because they have already been to parties / crab boils  and seen her drinking. However, any expectation of privacy I had even in my own fucking home was shot to hell because of some busybody bitch who couldnt keep herself from peering into my window... Want privacy? Blind your neighbors. LOL

You certainly have no expectation of privacy if you are using an electonic medium to transmit a signal. For Christs sake Casie if the computer you are using to respond to this forum runs Windows Vista the NSA developed the security for it!  

There is no privacy in the world. When I was flying aircraft with certain weapons systems I shall not mention for the US Navy there were nosy cocksuckers with lawn chairs camped out on nearby hillsides trying to catch a glimpse of us coming and going as we flew on moonless nights. When I go on an ambulance or fire call with the local volunteer fire dept there is some asshole with a scanner listening in to hear that "Medic 101" was just dispatched  to your address. They will then listen to the supposedly secure medical highband to hear "General ER, medic 101 is enroute to your facility with a twenty eight year old female patient complaining of rectal pain and bleeding. BP is 120 / 80 pulse is 90 and regular ......" Well guess what, after the look up the address on the internet they will know that you got fucked in the ass a little too hard that night... I am quite serious about the civilians with scanners. I once had an employee of mine say "so I heard you had a little trouble at your house last night" I was like Pardon me? Well the cops were at your house last night? Yeah asswipe they were, they stopped by to pick up some text books cause one of them is trying to become a pilot so he can get on the aviation unit! Fucking busybodies are so bad that I actually had a pissed off neighbor who "didnt get the invitation to my party". They were slighted because they heard that I bought over $1200 worth of seafood and beer at the local supermarket and they didnt get an invitation. Well, they heard correctly, only problem is I picked it up for the volunteer fire dept clambake using a dept debit card and they didnt get an invite because it was for members!

Dont worry about the govt. Your local busybodies already know the last time you took a crap, whether it sank or floated, whether you wiped front to back or back to front, and how many sheets of TP you used. If they deem it worthy they will see to it that the govt is informed. Back where I used to live I flew Learjets and I only worked 68 hours a month. That was it, the insurance company said no more than 68 hours per month of flight time.  However, I made $93 an hour so my salary was 75K a year. My wife was a teacher so at the time and in her district she made $39,000 giving us a total household incom of 114,000 a year. We spent all summer down at the cabin with her not working at all , and me working maybe 7 or 8 days a month. Yet the locals saw we had plenty of money - she drove a BMW, I drove an Eddie Bauer Expedition at the time - etc ... You wouldnt believe the shit I heard from the local cops on the theories about "what was going on up there"... I was a drug dealer, I was a pimp, I was a mafia guy, blah blah blah.... It was fucking hilarious because I was a pilot and she was a school teacher and we were QUITE middle class.  The local hillbilies just couldnt compute that someone could work 7 days in a month and live like we did.. So they dutifully made there reports. LMFAO.

The govt is the least of the spies watching your every move....

(in reply to Casie)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: FISA Amendments Act of 2008 - 7/11/2008 6:15:58 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Hello Casie,
 
I am disappointed that this law was passed without the amendment removing immunity from the telecom companies being included.

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to Casie)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: FISA Amendments Act of 2008 - 7/11/2008 7:34:59 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius


Uhm... the problem with the original law, is it expired.  There should have never been a sunset clause in it.



That wasn't FISA. That was the interem post-9/11 bill.


quote:


If AT&T is doing so under federal orders, who is to blame? The telecom or the executive branch?


Looks like both of them broke the law, AND they earned themselves a Conspiracy charge too.


< Message edited by farglebargle -- 7/11/2008 7:36:12 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: FISA Amendments Act of 2008 - 7/11/2008 8:23:44 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		--ok- lets suppose I want online emails I made --since day 1.  surely it is in a wharehouse somewhere.  Now I want to see it.

also- we all know credit bureaus make % of mistakes.... factor on cookies kept until 2037, [most of us will be dead by then]

so whom gets to have this data?   

on 9-11 -2001 we were attacked for our freedom.

the celebrated freedom. the boogieman sought to take that away from us.

bit by bit-   he has- and rather then the boogieman being holed up in some cave in ahganistan,  he is holed up in some office on wall street.      hmmm- gosh-  now that I  think of it- wall street would be the place I would  du-da, du-da

(in reply to Vendaval)
Profile   Post #: 16
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