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stella41b -> RE: Can stupid people consent? (7/12/2008 1:05:54 PM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AAkasha
quote:
ORIGINAL: stella41b
Aha. Now I see.
I just see a moot point here in a way. Going by the OP we can assume that intelligent people are being asked about whether stupid people should have 'informed consent'. But how do we know if anyone is stupid? You see, they might be intelligent, but we just don't understand their way of thinking or logic.
You see someone's 'desperate' can be someone else's 'impatient', and someone else's 'gung ho attitude.' We may think that someone is stupid for constantly arriving at the same result after the same course of actions, which ends of course in failure, but you know this could also be 'persistence', 'tenacity', 'perseverance'. Not everybody can achieve success, or even a successful relationship at the snap of their fingers.
My 'stupid' here is 'irresponsible' together with 'foolish'. But I see this all the time. However I also see it as a part of human nature and a part of life, something which affects all of us, not just selected people.
I asked the question in a deliberately blunt and potentially offensive manner to get people to stop and think about how riduclous it is to try to measure "informed consent" and come up with any kind of a standard regarding what "consent" is anyway - beyond not forcing anyone to do S&M by abduction, physical force or manipulation.
Akasha
Okay. I understand this. Only to a considerable number of people 'stupid' means 'someone else' and there's a sort of mental block preventing them from connecting 'stupid' to 'myself'. This isn't arrogance or dishonesty, they genuinely see themselves as being intelligent, logical, sensible even. To them it's always someone else who's the idiot.
These people are everywhere, even here. I'm sure you've noticed them yourself. Lots of people will be sat there nodding, 'yeah we know'. Even a considerable number of the idiots too will be sat there, at various times in front of their computers all over the world reading this and thinking 'yeah we know'.
It's like you stub your toe on a piece of furniture, let's say a table leg. What do you do? You swear at the table leg, don't you? But if the table leg could speak, there'd be various statements no doubt during a heated conversation coming from the table leg which may include:
'Wasn't my bloody fault, I've been here motionless for the past five and a half years.'
'It was you who kicked me, and now you're blaming me, right?'
This is about as universal as the different way men and women use towels in the bathroom. Notice how most women use towels like clothing or headscarves. They wrap themselves up in the towels, one over the head like a turban, and they go off and dry themselves somewhere else. Men on the other hand tend to use towels like general purpose cleaning rags. Rub here, then a good rub down below, then round the back, not forgetting to use the towel for a bit of keyhole surgery round the back whilst they're at it, and the towel usually ends up soaking wet on the floor.
Same thing too with stupidity, your own. You either realise it yourself when it's way too late, or other people notice it first.
Stupidity is an inherent part of human nature. When you fail or refuse to see stupidity as part of your own nature, this to me is a credible sign of emotional disturbance or mental illness.
What is informed consent anyway? Isn't this where you agree to something happening to you, hoping that it will turn out for the best, but knowing that it may go wrong and have negative consequences which as part of your agreement you are taking some degree of responsibility for?
When it comes to medical or surgical procedures it's the exact same thing. I'm going through hormone therapy at the moment, knowing that at any time I can develop a blood clot, suffer liver failure, or just simply die. I'm aware of the risks and have agreed to take these risks.
Similarly too we see this in the criminal justice system. The MacNaughton Rules came about to establish competency, or rather responsibility for one's actions, where it was seen that someone who cannot be held responsible for their own actions is insane. The US Supreme Court ruling in Atkins v. Virginia 536 US 304 (2002) stated that the execution of a murderer who is deemed to be incompetent violates the Eighth Amendment.
I'd therefore say that here in BDSM or S/M if you prefer your level of competency can be measured by taking into account three factors (1) the type of relationship you are seeking or the activities within this relationship you wish to get involved in, (2) the person or people you choose to develop such relationships with or participate in such activities with, and your knowledge, understanding and confidence in such people and (3) the degree of personal responsibility you are prepared to accept with regard to both the relationship and activities and also with regard to your involvement with the other person or people.
This is also assuming that you are not seeking to be involved in anything detrimental to your psychological, emotional or physical wellbeing.
But can stupid people consent? Why yes, because they tend to consent way before the time their stupidity comes to light.
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