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RE: Criminals in the White House - 7/14/2008 4:56:42 PM

slvemike4u

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DA you prove one of my points,it is not effective, hell we have been using these methods to train guys like You for years.If the training is effective by definition the torture is not ,no USEFUL information is gleaned as a resut of these keystone kop methods....

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Post #: 41

RE: Criminals in the White House - 7/14/2008 5:50:23 PM

DomAviator

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Mike I do not "prove your point" on the contrary if you look at the two videos the former SEAL went for over 20 min, until the producer had enough and ended it. He was then laughing about it... By comparison look how quickly the pussy reporter stopped it.

The terrorists we are doing this to are not in the US Military and as such have not been through a SERE Level C class. They are a bunch of hotheaded Islamic radical yahoos who are really prettty poorly trained. Hence the reason that they break so easily...

The technique IS effective if used against the type of enemy we have. So what we are doing is employing stress innoculation to make our men resistant, and then employing the same technique we are innoculated against on an inferior enemy that lacks the fortitude to endure it. There are three kinds of people in this world - men, women, and bitches and that Vanity Fair reporter was a bitch. Poor baby quit in seconds and has problems now when the blankie goes over his face in bed... Awwwwwww. Maybe he should cut his twig and giggleberries off as he doesnt need them because hes not a man. You saw the SEAL laughing about it after what 24 minutes....

You cant judge the effectiveness by the way a candy ass whos never been in combat with anything but a printer cartridge handled it. Yes the SEAL resisted. thats why he became a SEAL. They dont let spineless bitches into the SEALSs, the real men go there or into the cockpit of a combat aircraft etc and the ones who cant hack it write articles for womens magazines like Vanity Fair.

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Post #: 42

RE: Criminals in the White House - 7/14/2008 7:05:10 PM

stef

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

Well stef, the video is a pretty accurate depiction and that proves my point ...

Really? You must have forgotten your point then. You claim that waterboarding isn't torture. A former Navy SEAL who has endured it several times says it is. Sorry, he has orders of magnitude more credibility than you.

quote:

What I saw in the post waterboarding interview of Kaj was a man laughing and saying "that sucked"...Notice him laughing about it when he says "I thought I was gonna die too". Hes saying "thats horrible every time you go through it" well thats what a lot of people say about root canal or PAP smears too...

He also said it was torture, in case you missed that part. An uncomfortable root canal or pap smear stops the moment you say so, torture doesn't. That you would even compare them is ludicrous.

quote:

Incidentally without going into it to the point of releasing classified information SERE participants DO NOT have the "luxury of knowing your interrogators are not going to kill you". There is a major mind fuck that goes along with it so that you are NOT able to just say "Oh well its only training and it ends Sunday" The military isnt stupid, they have created an absolutely masterful illusion, complete to the tiniest detail, to get around that...

Ah, the old "classified info" defense. Bravo. Always a nice touch. All of those stories from people who went through the SERE training must be misinformation. Verrrrrrry sneaky of them. An absolutely masterful illusion, if I do say so myself.

~stef

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Post #: 43

RE: Criminals in the White House - 7/14/2008 7:13:18 PM

slvemike4u

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And still DA whether they are "inferior" and break,what do you have a subject willing to tell you anything to make it stop...and they tell anything ,usually what they have already decided You want to hear....torture doesn't work that simple...so given it doesn't work why trade the moral high ground for the highly questionable take gleaned from torture...there are more effective ways to gain intel and you know it DA ,this is just one more example of the ineffectiveness of the current administration and the bankruptcy of their ideas....

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

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Post #: 44

RE: Criminals in the White House - 7/14/2008 7:19:31 PM

DomAviator

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Stef, Im not going to argue it with you the man was laughing about it and was fine. He wasnt taken away by ambulance, he laughed and said "that sucked"...

As for the "classified info" defense IT IS CLASSIFIED. Anyone who tells you exactly what happened at SERE is a fucking liar. Period. I don't care what people say happens, I was there I KNOW what happens, and I also know that anyone who tells you exactly what happened has revealed classified information and will be prosecuted for it! I dont care what you heard from "all these people" because IT IS CLASSIFIED INFO .

Don't take my word for whether it classified or not. Go to http://www.faso.navy.mil/2d0039.htm Notice the .navy.mil domain name on the web address??? Notice the red sentence at the bottom of the course prerequisites??? The one that says Certification of a CONFIDENTIAL clearance is required.

Now that one is the wartime SERE course, the one for POW's... This one http://www.faso.navy.mil/PDAHS.htm is the one for people facing terrorists. Note the sentence that says :

Course classification is "SECRET", therefore, a certification of secret of higher security clearance must be reflected on the individual's written orders.

< Message edited by DomAviator -- 7/14/2008 7:25:01 PM >

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Post #: 45

RE: Criminals in the White House - 7/14/2008 7:51:51 PM

stef

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And he said it was torture. Tapdance all around that as long as you like but it is what it is.

I'm not debating that there are classified portions of the SERE training, so you don't need to go all bold on me again, but your claim that the masterful illusionists otherwise known as "the military" are able to trick the SERE participants into somehow forgetting they were in a SERE class and believe they are actual prisoners, is more than a little amusing. I would certainly hope that those entrusted with million or billion dollar aircraft weren't quite so gullible.

~stef

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Welcome to PoliticSpace! If you came here expecting meaningful BDSM discussions, boy are you in the wrong place.

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Post #: 46

RE: Criminals in the White House - 7/14/2008 8:46:40 PM

Thadius

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

And he said it was torture. Tapdance all around that as long as you like but it is what it is.

I'm not debating that there are classified portions of the SERE training, so you don't need to go all bold on me again, but your claim that the masterful illusionists otherwise known as "the military" are able to trick the SERE participants into somehow forgetting they were in a SERE class and believe they are actual prisoners, is more than a little amusing. I would certainly hope that those entrusted with million or billion dollar aircraft weren't quite so gullible.

~stef

You would be surprised what sleep deprivation, lack of food, cold and or heat (depending on time of year) can make your mind believe is real. Then add on top of that some persuasive negotiation tactics. What is or isn't torture is a matter for debate, some people consider only getting 6 hours of sleep to be torture. Waterboarding does not harm anybody for life, it does not leave scars, and as soon as it is over the person can perform everything they were able to do prior to it. That doesn't mean that they might not feel guilt for giving in, or emotionally dislike themselves for begging for it to stop. Waterboarding is also not applied to every prisoner.

Then again I am sure that some folks would much rather we didn't hold interogations of prisoners, so to clear their minds of the guilt associated with it, I am all for outsourcing to a neutral 3rd party... Egypt or Israel's Mossad. As far as I know waterboarding is not their first choice for discussing things with alleged terrorists.

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Post #: 47

RE: Criminals in the White House - 7/14/2008 8:54:36 PM

NeedingMore220

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stef
I'm not debating that there are classified portions of the SERE training, so you don't need to go all bold on me again, but your claim that the masterful illusionists otherwise known as "the military" are able to trick the SERE participants into somehow forgetting they were in a SERE class and believe they are actual prisoners, is more than a little amusing. I would certainly hope that those entrusted with million or billion dollar aircraft weren't quite so gullible.

I dunno, Stef - the guy in the video said at the end that there were moments during the session that even though he *knew* he was in a controlled environment instincts took over and he wanted to fight it hard. I can't figure the video out - he's not struggling very hard, at least not shown on tape. He has restraints, but he hardly bucks against them. I don't quite understand it. I expected him to be thrashing about, fighting, etc. I perved your profile and the gas mask photo was on top - I have a severe phobia of hoods or masks or anything covering my face. I've tried them, with a trusted man, but even in that controlled environment, I freaked. So anxieties and fears and the unknown tend to creep into your mind.

Then again, the dude was absolutely laughing as he was slogging water out of his nose and throat while giving the interview moments after being released.

I can't figure it out, and am on the fence as to whether this is torture or just harsh treatment. I think it comes down to whether a person trusts their government or not. Lots on here don't. Lots do.

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Post #: 48

RE: Criminals in the White House - 7/14/2008 8:58:02 PM

DomAviator

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

You would be surprised what sleep deprivation, lack of food, cold and or heat (depending on time of year) can make your mind believe is real. Then add on top of that some persuasive negotiation tactics.

Thanks you Thadius, youre absolutely right... Of course if you also throw in some fellow students who are actually instructors, some extremely talented actors, and some top notch special effects that would rival any movie - things can get very real. After all, you just saw them with your own eyes... But what do I know Im gullible and stef heard all about SERE from "all these people who went through" (and then divulged classified information) . LOL

Youre absolutely right though Thad, lets stop doing it immediately and follow clintons policy of simply kidnapping them and dropping them off someplace so that someone else can torture them while the CIA takes notes. Thats the way the dems did it since 1995 it unlike the criminal republicans...

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Post #: 49

RE: Criminals in the White House - 7/14/2008 9:02:43 PM

slvemike4u

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomAviator

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadiu

Thanks you Thadius, youre absolutely right... Of course if you also throw in some fellow students who are actually instructors, some extremely talented actors, and some top notch special effects that would rival any movie - things can get very real. After all, you just saw them with your own eyes... But what do I know Im gullible and stef heard all about SERE from "all these people who went through" (and then divulged classified information) . LOL

Youre absolutely right though Thad, lets stop doing it immediately and follow clintons policy of simply kidnapping them and dropping them off someplace so that someone else can torture them while the CIA takes notes. Thats the way the dems did it since 1995 it unlike the criminal republicans...
______________________________________________________-________
[/quote)So again You make your point by using the very effective they did it so it's okay that we continue to do it...works fine in schoolyards across the country...You need to hang out with some adults DA leave whats her name for a little bit and find an adult perspective...

< Message edited by slvemike4u -- 7/14/2008 9:04:17 PM >

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

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Post #: 50

RE: Criminals in the White House - 7/14/2008 9:05:23 PM

Thadius

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I can only imagine what the Israeli special forces go through, they are some crazy som bitches....

Oh and actors is an understatement.

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Post #: 51

RE: Criminals in the White House - 7/14/2008 9:10:42 PM

cloudboy

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You might find it easier to make your point by calling it simulated drowning as opposed to waterboarding.

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Post #: 52

RE: Criminals in the White House - 7/14/2008 9:12:31 PM

DomAviator

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

So again You make your point by using the very effective they did it so it's okay that we continue to do it...works fine in schoolyards across the country...You need to hang out with some adults DA leave whats her name for a little bit and find an adult perspective...

Well that was just brilliant... Hmmmm lets see, I need to find "an adult perspective"? How odd - I thought that everyone in the military and intelligence community - you know the people actually DOING this was an adult?

Are you telling me that we are employing minors as interrogators, intelligence officers, military police, special warfare operators and SERE instructors??? Thats disturbing if true - because thats who is actually implementing the policy set forth by president Clinton and continued under Bush... Wouldnt all of those people be adults?

By the way, nice dig on "whats her name".... Talk about the playground shot... LOL

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Post #: 53

RE: Criminals in the White House - 7/14/2008 9:22:58 PM

Thadius

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I did see a report today about recruiting air traffic controlers in high schools, for on the job training.....

Hmmm, this just might be an economic break through and fight crime at the same time. We could recruit "interviewers" from the most gang infested low income projects around the country. We give them say 100k a year (tax free), and bonuses for any info they get, we also allow them to use whatever humane methods they can devise. I like it.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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Post #: 54

RE: Criminals in the White House - 7/14/2008 10:16:16 PM

slvemike4u

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DA as usual we disagree.You see your country engaged in torture and look forward to some great Youtube clips.I see my country codifying and debating arguing how much torture is to much torture,and I lament the lost fidelity to the Constitution.I start a thread concerned with the cureent administration and you have on more than one ocassion here given us as a justification that the other guy started it...I ask you ,do you realy believe that is a proper argument and if you do ,start a thread about it .Point your finger at Clinton and we can argue it all night.This thread is abot the current administration and there walk on the wild side,there use of ChiCom torture manuals,there attempt to codify to have The Law of The Land of your Country condone and declare that we torture...please don't spend any more time pointing your finger at Clnton,he was President Bush and Cheney are the guys at the helm now
BTW i will apologise towhats her name right after I apologise to Britney okay

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to Thadius)

Post #: 55

RE: Criminals in the White House - 7/14/2008 10:36:17 PM

slaveboyforyou

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quote:

So what their running down there ,is realy a Cuban Hospitality Spa....got it....

Another snarky, pointless remark from Mike. I never said it was a spa. But it's not the Spanish Inquisition either. It's a hell of a lot more accomodating than what many countries would do to these people. The Russians have had their own experiences with Islamic radicals joining the fight in Chechyna. Do you want bet they aren't as nice as us?

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Post #: 56

RE: Criminals in the White House - 7/14/2008 11:01:53 PM

Thadius

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This should add an interesting precedent http://blogs.bet.com/news/newsyoushouldknow/world-news-international-court-seeks-to-arrest-sudan%E2%80%99s-president-charity-workers-killed-in-somalia/ at least in regards to indicting a sitting president. Oh and let's be clear, what is going on there is far worse than what people even claim the US is guilty of.

The Sudanese government is denying the jurisdiction of the ICC, for a multitude of reasons.

Just one other quick thought on the matter of charges ever being brought against Bush or any other president, why was a case never brought against Saddam Hussein in the world courts? The closest thing to it was in regards to the Iran-Iraq war, and even then the charges were made by Iran against the US. (about controlling shipping in the gulf).

Oh and as I have noted earlier in this thread, there hasn't been anything done by the US that violates international law, at least nothing that has come to light as of yet.

Just something to think about,
Thadius

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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Post #: 57

RE: Criminals in the White House - 7/14/2008 11:25:03 PM

slvemike4u

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

So what their running down there ,is realy a Cuban Hospitality Spa....got it....

Another snarky, pointless remark from Mike. I never said it was a spa. But it's not the Spanish Inquisition either. It's a hell of a lot more accomodating than what many countries would do to these people. The Russians have had their own experiences with Islamic radicals joining the fight in Chechyna. Do you want bet they aren't as nice as us?

Slaveboy sorry if the reply was snarky.You are right it was and there were better ways to get my point across...allow me to try one ....WE ARE BETTER THAN THIS..we should not have to debate the relative benifits of this torture or that torture,the fact of it's ineffectiveness is what makes doing the right thing ,in this case,the easy thing to do...we gain nothing of value from engaging in it ,yet we contravene our values to do it...to me it is simple we are The United States of America we are the good guys,now i know that is simplistic but that does not nullify the truth of it...

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)

Post #: 58

RE: Criminals in the White House - 7/15/2008 12:32:31 AM

slaveboyforyou

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quote:

Slaveboy sorry if the reply was snarky.You are right it was and there were better ways to get my point across...allow me to try one ....WE ARE BETTER THAN THIS..we should not have to debate the relative benifits of this torture or that torture,the fact of it's ineffectiveness is what makes doing the right thing ,in this case,the easy thing to do...we gain nothing of value from engaging in it ,yet we contravene our values to do it...to me it is simple we are The United States of America we are the good guys,now i know that is simplistic but that does not nullify the truth of it...

Mike, interrogations are not pleasant with or without waterboarding. I agree that there have been a plethora of mistakes made by the United States in it's pursuit of terrorists. I'm quite sure that we have picked up a few people that were completely innocent. A lot of these people got caught up in the chaos after the American invasions of both Afghanistan and Iraq, and many were turned in by unscrupulous people. So yeah some guy might have been pissed off at another guy for having more goats than him and pointed him out to authorities as a terrorist.

But counterterrorism is messy and it's unpleasant. Waterboarding and some of the other methods used pale in comparison to what other countries do and that includes other Western nations. Read up on what the British used to do to suspected IRA members in it's custody for an interesting perspective. Another poster mentioned the Italians and that really made me laugh. The Italian authorities are notorious for using heavy handed tactics against members of the Mafia.

The people that are being interrogated are not common thieves. We are talking about fanatics, and they mean business. They are not playing games, and they don't follow a set of rules. You can't win a war with them by pussy footing around and playing by the rules.

< Message edited by slaveboyforyou -- 7/15/2008 12:33:44 AM >

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Post #: 59

RE: Criminals in the White House - 7/15/2008 12:37:31 AM

Thadius

Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

Slaveboy sorry if the reply was snarky.You are right it was and there were better ways to get my point across...allow me to try one ....WE ARE BETTER THAN THIS..we should not have to debate the relative benifits of this torture or that torture,the fact of it's ineffectiveness is what makes doing the right thing ,in this case,the easy thing to do...we gain nothing of value from engaging in it ,yet we contravene our values to do it...to me it is simple we are The United States of America we are the good guys,now i know that is simplistic but that does not nullify the truth of it...

Mike, interrogations are not pleasant with or without waterboarding. I agree that there have been a plethora of mistakes made by the United States in it's pursuit of terrorists. I'm quite sure that we have picked up a few people that were completely innocent. A lot of these people got caught up in the chaos after the American invasions of both Afghanistan and Iraq, and many were turned in by unscrupulous people. So yeah some guy might have been pissed off at another guy for having more goats than him and pointed him out to authorities as a terrorist.

But counterterrorism is messy and it's unpleasant. Waterboarding and some of the other methods used pale in comparison to what other countries do and that includes other Western nations. Read up on what the British used to do to suspected IRA members in it's custody for an interesting perspective. Another poster mentioned the Italians and that really made me laugh. The Italian authorities are notorious for using heavy handed tactics against members of the Mafia.

The people that are being interrogated are not common thieves. We are talking about fanatics, and they mean business. They are not playing games, and they don't follow a set of rules. You can't win a war with them by pussy footing around and playing by the rules.

Excellent post, I couldn't have said it better myself.

I wish you well,
Thadius

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to slaveboyforyou)

Post #: 60

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