RE: Satire at it's Finest (Full Version)

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Thadius -> RE: Satire at it's Finest (7/15/2008 9:12:13 PM)

A couple of quick thoughts on this.

It is truly a shame that the article linked to the cover had nothing to do with the cover.  This was nothing more than a shameless publicity stunt.

Finally, a recent poll showed that 12% actually believe that Obama is Muslim, which is significantly higher than the approval ratings of Congress.... Kind of scary when you think about it.




TheHeretic -> RE: Satire at it's Finest (7/15/2008 9:23:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

It is truly a shame that the article linked to the cover had nothing to do with the cover. 



          I'm not so sure, Thad.  Notice the way Obama is looking at the viewer in the cartoon?  The article is very much about about a man who understands what he is doing.  Besides, it's not like The New Yorker has much history with cartoons that are actually laugh-out-loud funny.




Thadius -> RE: Satire at it's Finest (7/15/2008 9:28:21 PM)

I suppose you are right, I still think it was in bad taste.  I saw a report somewhere today or yesterday (damn the memory is slipping), talking about how comedic writers are frustrated that there isn't much to lampoon about Obama, simply because there isn't much of a record.




Alumbrado -> RE: Satire at it's Finest (7/15/2008 9:57:55 PM)

By the same token, what is there to satirize in innocuous material?

It is the worst in people that deserves to be held up to ridicule, and the 'Obama is a terrorist/Kill whitey' fervor is exactly that. 




RealityLicks -> RE: Satire at it's Finest (7/16/2008 5:39:54 AM)

I thought it was a great cover.  One of the finest things about the magazine is that it has resisted the immense drive to "dumb down".  What an own goal it would be if they started to do so now, especially in such interesting political times.  You can't allow the ignorant to demarcate the bounds of acceptability.  That way, you are headed for nothing short of lowest common denominator pap. Put decent ideas out there and let those of the ignorant who can, improve their understanding.  Seriously, fuck those who can't.

I know there are those who will argue that context fades over time and that we are left with the image - but if that context is the cover of one of the most famously liberal of periodicals in world publishing, you have to wonder at the cultural loss involved.  Don't go a long way, baby.




Thadius -> RE: Satire at it's Finest (7/16/2008 6:17:19 AM)

So that is the point at which it passes from satire to irony....[;)]




MistressNew -> RE: Satire at it's Finest (7/16/2008 9:55:00 AM)

I'm not entirely sold.  Satire should be exaggerated in some way.  But this isn't exaggerated.  It's a pretty accurate depiction of how some uneducated people view Obama.  I think it fails as satire, and I think it's in poor taste.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/horsey/viewbydate.asp?id=1792

That being said, it's a free country.  That's why I love it.  You have to take the good with the bad.




Alumbrado -> RE: Satire at it's Finest (7/16/2008 9:59:51 AM)

Great link...the covers should be made into bookends.




Thadius -> RE: Satire at it's Finest (7/16/2008 10:02:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Great link...the covers should be made into bookends.


I agree completely.




Musicmystery -> RE: Satire at it's Finest (7/16/2008 11:27:00 AM)

Satire should have a point.

Jonathan Swift isn't great because he has a sharp tongue, but because he encapsulates serious arguments, with support, into his pieces. The best political cartoons do the same.

This cartoon is merely a gratuituous summary. If this is "satire," then so is third-graders making fun of each other.

It's not so much of matter of offensive or a matter of free speech. The cartoon fails, and to feature it on the cover was a poor editorial decision.

And really---I doubt anyone ran out to buy the New Yorker because of the cartoon. For starters---anyone can view it, obtain it, and reproduce it for free, given the popularity of the controversy.

A much better reason to read the New Torker is the investigative journalism, particularly Sy Hersch's pieces. The editors should have thought about that, instead of going with glib.





Alumbrado -> RE: Satire at it's Finest (7/16/2008 11:44:18 AM)

Perhaps if people would stick to a real definition of satire, instead of making up their own imaginary ones there wouldn't be so much to carp about in this particular case.

quote:

1387 (implied in satiric), "work intended to ridicule vice or folly..."



Note the qualifier of 'intended to ridicule'....  that it flies right over the heads of the pedantic does not prevent it from meeting the defintion of satire.



Or if we want a made up definition....

quote:

  "Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own"--Jonathan Swift






NeedingMore220 -> RE: Satire at it's Finest (7/16/2008 12:55:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressNew

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/horsey/viewbydate.asp?id=1792

That being said, it's a free country.  That's why I love it.  You have to take the good with the bad



lol!  Great link, thanks.




Musicmystery -> RE: Satire at it's Finest (7/16/2008 1:34:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Perhaps if people would stick to a real definition of satire, instead of making up their own imaginary ones there wouldn't be so much to carp about in this particular case.

quote:

1387 (implied in satiric), "work intended to ridicule vice or folly..."



Note the qualifier of 'intended to ridicule'....  that it flies right over the heads of the pedantic does not prevent it from meeting the defintion of satire.



Or if we want a made up definition....

quote:

  "Satire is a sort of glass, wherein beholders do generally discover everybody's face but their own"--Jonathan Swift





If you feel that satire = ridicule, and that's the end of it, already there's a problem with definition. "A Modest Proposal" and "Gulliver's Travels" are far more than ridicule. So are Moliere's and Aristophanes' plays.

If by pedantic you meant "paying attention to content," then yup--in your definition world, pedantic.

The OP presented the cover as "Satire at its Finest." It isn't.

Prehaps you'll consider some of these other made-up definitions as you continue work on your independent dictionary:

Satire Definition
Dictionary.alottoolbars.com
n.
A literary work in which human vice or folly is attacked through irony, derision, or wit.
The branch of literature constituting such works. See synonyms at caricature.
Irony, sarcasm, or caustic wit used to attack or expose folly, vice, or stupidity.
[Latin satira, probably alteration (influenced by Greek satur, satyr, and saturos, burlesque of a mythical episode), of (lanx) satura, fruit (plate) mixture, from feminine of satur, sated, well-fitted.]

Thesaurus: satire
noun

A work, as a novel or play, that exposes folly by the use of humor or irony: lampoon, lampoonery. See laughter, respect/contempt/standing.

Literary Dictionary: satire
satire, a mode of writing that exposes the failings of individuals, institutions, or societies to ridicule and scorn. Satire is often an incidental element in literary works that may not be wholly satirical, especially in comedy. Its tone may vary from tolerant amusement, as in the verse satires of the Roman poet Horace, to bitter indignation, as in the verse of Juvenal and the prose of Jonathan Swift (see Juvenalian). Various forms of literature may be satirical, from the plays of Ben Jonson or of Molière and the poetry of Chaucer or Byron to the prose writings of Rabelais and Voltaire. The models of Roman satire, especially the verse satires of Horace and Juvenal, inspired some important imitations by Boileau, Pope, and Johnson in the greatest period of satire—the 17th and 18th centuries—when writers could appeal to a shared sense of normal conduct from which vice and folly were seen to stray. In this classical tradition, an important form is ‘formal’ or ‘direct’ satire, in which the writer directly addresses the reader (or recipient of a verse letter) with satiric comment. The alternative form of ‘indirect’ satire usually found in plays and novels allows us to draw our own conclusions from the actions of the characters, as for example in the novels of Evelyn Waugh or Chinua Achebe. See also lampoon. For a fuller account, consult Arthur Pollard, Satire (1970).

Britannica Concise Encyclopedia: satire

Artistic form in which human or individual vices, folly, abuses, or shortcomings are held up to censure by means of ridicule, derision, burlesque, irony, or other methods, sometimes with an intent to bring about improvement. Literature and drama are its chief vehicles, but it is also found in such mediums as film, the visual arts (e.g., caricatures), and political cartoons. Though present in Greek literature, notably in the works of Aristophanes, satire generally follows the example of either of two Romans, Horace or Juvenal. To Horace the satirist is an urbane man of the world who sees folly everywhere but is moved to gentle laughter rather than to rage. Juvenal's satirist is an upright man who is horrified and angered by corruption. Their different perspectives produced the subgenres of satire identified by John Dryden as comic satire and tragic satire.

Britannica Concise Encyclopedia: satire

Artistic form in which human or individual vices, folly, abuses, or shortcomings are held up to censure by means of ridicule, derision, burlesque, irony, or other methods, sometimes with an intent to bring about improvement. Literature and drama are its chief vehicles, but it is also found in such mediums as film, the visual arts (e.g., caricatures), and political cartoons. Though present in Greek literature, notably in the works of Aristophanes, satire generally follows the example of either of two Romans, Horace or Juvenal. To Horace the satirist is an urbane man of the world who sees folly everywhere but is moved to gentle laughter rather than to rage. Juvenal's satirist is an upright man who is horrified and angered by corruption. Their different perspectives produced the subgenres of satire identified by John Dryden as comic satire and tragic satire.

French Literature Companion: Satire
A Protean term, satire can be understood as a particular genre with formal characteristics, or as an element or spirit that is present in works of many kinds.

In its restricted definition it means a discourse, usually in verse, mocking or condemning the follies of human beings and the abuses of society. It was present in the Middle Ages, in such forms as the dit, but the term ‘satire’ was not then in use. Du Bellay in his Défense et illustration called for satire on the classical model in place of the medieval coq-à- l'âne. Ronsard in his Discours provided a model of indignant verse in the Juvenalian mode, which is echoed in much of d'Aubigné's Tragiques; similar denunciations of vice are found in the work of the Normandy satirists, Auvray, Angot de l'Éperonnière, Sonnet de Courval, and Du Lorens.

A more light-hearted vein can be traced from Ronsard's folastries and from the Italian Berni to poems of grotesque, often abusive description, where the interest is less in morality than in the pleasure of the game, e.g. the inventive, obscene verse of Sigogne and Motin. The serious and the playful coexist in the satires of Régnier, who established the classic form, written in alexandrines, which Boileau's much imitated Satires were to consecrate. Here the influence of Horace prevails over that of Juvenal. Boileau's prefaces and poems contain many defences of the genre, which was often condemned as low, particularly when, like Boileau, the satirist named names. In spite of such criticism (see Voltaire's Mémoire sur la satire, 1739), satires full of abuse continued to be written throughout the 18th c., not least by Voltaire himself. Gilbert's notorious Le Dix-Huitième Siècle was a model for polemic verse of all tendencies during the Revolutionary period, but the greatest satire of the time was the fierce and formally innovative Iambes of André Chénier.

The same title, Iambes, was used in the next century by Auguste Barbier, for his poems about the Revolution of 1830. In general, however, formal verse satire declined in importance in the 19th c. Béranger's songs pick up a different tradition, that of the political popular song, which had flourished in times of trouble such as the Fronde and the Revolution. Hugo's Les Châtiments are not, for the most part, satires as described above, but in every other sense are a summit in French satirical writing.

A different type of satire is derived from the Latin word satura, meaning a medley or hotchpotch. Such satires are characteristically in prose, or a mixture of prose and verse, and are often just as fiercely committed to political, social, moral, or religious denunciation as Juvenalian verse satire. This vein is illustrated in the 16th c. by Des Périers's Cymbalum Mundi, a set of Lucianesque dialogues, Henri Estienne's Apologie pour Hérodote, and above all the Satire Ménippée. Many other works, often in dialogue form, could be seen as continuing this tradition, though not necessarily with the same vehemence. Several of Voltaire's miscellaneous writings are in fact Menippean satires, including dialogues such as ‘Les ABC’ and works usually included in his Contes, such as ‘Pot-pourri’ or ‘Les Oreilles du comte de Chesterfield’. Diderot actually entitled a brief piece of social observation ‘Satire première’, and gave Le Neveu de Rameau the subtitle ‘Satire seconde’, thus associating it too with a classical form in which disorder reigned.

In its broader sense, which can extend to almost any form of mockery or criticism of people and society, satire is omnipresent in French writing. It is found in pamphlets, in journalism, in songs, in novels and short stories, in poems and plays of many kinds, and is often virtually indistinguishable from comedy. Critics have often associated it rather loosely with a bourgeois (as opposed to a courtly or heroic) way of thinking, but in reality it has not been the property of any social group.

In the Middle Ages the fabliaux and morality plays are full of laughter directed against human weaknesses and pretensions as well as against specific social groups, notably clerics. Miroirs and similar didactic forms are largely satirical in content. Satire is central to the Roman de Renart and the second part of the Roman de la Rose, and it is an important element in the work of Rutebeuf and in Villon's Testament. In the Renaissance period Rabelais's work could arguably be seen as the greatest of all Menippean satires, though very different from the Satire Ménippée itself. Marot's poems contain much playful mockery, while Du Bellay's Regrets are largely sustained by bitter mockery of the alien world of Rome. The social satire already present in medieval farce continues to figure in new types of comedy, and this satirical vein is exploited to the full by comic playwrights in the following two centuries, from Desmarets de Saint-Sorlin (Les Visionnaires) to Destouches (Le Glorieux). Recent criticism has tended to play down the satirical element in Molière, focusing rather on the comedy of human inconsistencies and illusions, but there can be no denying the aggressive thrust of Tartuffe or Les Précieuses ridicules.

Otherwise, in the 17th and 18th c. satire thrives in the new genre of the novel, from the comic novels of Scarron or Furetière to the sharply observed scenes of Marivaux or Crébillon fils. Similar amused or censorious pictures are presented by La Fontaine in his Fables (indirectly) and by moralistes such as La Bruyère. In the Enlightenment period there is a tendency for satire to become partisan again, as it had been in the Wars of Religion. Montesquieu, in the Lettres persanes, and Voltaire, in his philosophical tales and a great range of other work in prose and verse, pour scorn on established folly, while their enemies (Palissot, Fréron) respond in kind. Throughout all this period, and above all during the Revolution, there is a massive production of pamphlets, libels, and satirical songs.

In the novels and plays of the last two centuries the satirical representation of French society has been a constant element, as in the work of Stendhal, Flaubert, Proust, or Sartre, but it is rarely dominant— Anatole France's L'Île des pingouins may be seen as an exception. The medley tradition of satura can be traced, for instance, in the novels of Queneau or the later work of Céline. But satire has found its purest expression in pamphlet literature and in the press, from the writings of Courier to the journalism of Le Canard enchaîné, Charlie-Hebdo, and the many other sharp-tongued periodicals of Right, Left, and centre.

[Peter France]

Bibliography

F. Fleuret, ‘La Satire française au XVIe siècle’ and ‘La Satire française au XVIIe siècle’, both in De Ronsard à Baudelaire (1935)

Columbia Encyclopedia: satire,
term applied to any work of literature or art whose objective is ridicule. It is more easily recognized than defined. From ancient times satirists have shared a common aim: to expose foolishness in all its guises—vanity, hypocrisy, pedantry, idolatry, bigotry, sentimentality—and to effect reform through such exposure. The many diverse forms their statements have taken reflect the origin of the word satire, which is derived from the Latin satura, meaning “dish of mixed fruits,” hence a medley.
Classical Satirists

Outstanding among the classical satirists was the Greek dramatist Aristophanes, whose play The Clouds (423 B.C.) satirizes Socrates as the embodiment of atheism and sophistry, while The Wasps (422) satirizes the Athenian court system. The satiric styles of two Roman poets, Horace and Juvenal, became models for writers of later ages. The satire of Horace is mild, gently amused, yet sophisticated, whereas that of Juvenal is vitriolic and replete with moral indignation; Shakespeare later wrote Horatian satire and Jonathan Swift wrote Juvenalian satire.

The Golden Age of Satire

From the beast fables, fabliaux, and Chaucerian caricatures to the extended treatments of John Skelton, Shakespeare, Ben Jonson, Erasmus, and Cervantes, the satirical tradition flourished throughout the Middle Ages and the Renaissance, culminating in the golden age of satire in the late 17th and early 18th cent. The familiar names of Swift, Samuel Butler, John Dryden, Alexander Pope, Richard Steele, Henry Fielding, and William Hogarth, in England, and of Nicolas Boileau-Despréaux, La Fontaine, Molière, and Voltaire, in France, suggest not only the nature of the controversies that provided a target for the satirist's darts in both nations, but also the rediscovery and consequent adaptation of the classical models to individual talents. Pope, for example, wrote The Rape of the Lock (1714), a mock epic about the crisis that occurs when a lock of Lady Belinda's hair is snipped off by a suitor as she sips her coffee. The poem is based upon an actual happening, and Pope's Horatian tone gently castigates the frivolous life of London society. Swift, on the other hand, echoes Juvenal's “savage indignation.” In Gulliver's Travels (1726), Swift exposes humanity in all its baseness and cruelty. Throughout his encounters with the inhabitants of imaginary lands, starting with the Lilliputians and ending with the Houyhnhnms—the latter are horses endowed with noble attributes, while their servants are bestial, filthy humanoids called Yahoos—Gulliver's (and Swift's) misanthropy grows, culminating in his refusal, once he is reunited with his family, to eat with creatures so closely resembling Yahoos.

The Nineteenth Century

In the 19th cent., satire gave way to a more gentle form of criticism. Manners and morals were still ridiculed but usually in the framework of a longer work, such as a novel. However, satire can be found in the poems of Lord Byron, in the librettos of William S. Gilbert, in the plays of Oscar Wilde and G. B. Shaw, and in the fiction of W. M. Thackeray, Charles Dickens, Samuel Butler, and many others. American satirists of the period include Washington Irving, James Russell Lowell, Oliver Wendell Holmes, and Mark Twain.

The Twentieth Century

Although 20th-century satire continues to register Horatian or Juvenalian reactions to the enormities of an age dominated by fear of the atom bomb and plagued by pollution, racism, drugs, planned obsolescence, and the abuse of power, critics have discerned some shifts in its source. In some instances the satirist is the audience rather than the artist. Hence the enthusiasm in the 1960s for “camp”—defined by Susan Sontag as meaning works of art that can be enjoyed but not taken seriously, even though they may have been created seriously—indeed, works that are enjoyed for the very qualities that make them second-rate. Sontag's examples of “camp” include Tiffany lamps, the ballet Swan Lake, and the movie Casablanca. Occasionally the audience is the victim of the satire. The so-called put-on, whether a play (Samuel Beckett's Breath, in which breathing is heard on a blacked-out stage), a joke (Lenny Bruce's nightclub routines), or an artifact (John Chamberlain's smashed-up cars), seeks to confuse its audience by presenting the fraudulent as a true work of art, thus rendering the whole concept of “art” questionable. More conventional contemporary satirists of note are Sinclair Lewis, James Thurber, Aldous Huxley, Evelyn Waugh, W. H. Auden, Philip Roth, and Joseph Heller.

Bibliography

See G. Highet, The Anatomy of Satire (1962); L. Feinberg, The Satirist (1963); A. Kernan, The Plot of Satire (1965); critical anthology ed. by J. Russell and A. Brown (1967); J. R. Clark, ed., Satire—That Blasted Art (1973); M. Seidel, The Satiric Inheritance (1979); H. D. Weinbrot, Eighteenth Century Satire: Essays on Text and Context from Dryden to Peter Pindar (1988).

Grammar Dictionary: satire
A work of literature that mocks social conventions, another work of art, or anything its author thinks ridiculous. Gulliver's Travels, by Jonathan Swift, is a satire of eighteenth-century British society.

Poetry Glossary: Satire
A literary work, which exposes and ridicules human vices or folly. Historically perceived as tending toward didacticism, it is usually intended as a moral criticism directed against the injustice of social wrongs. It may be written with witty jocularity or with anger and bitterness.

I could keep going, but since you think I'm just making it all up this quickly, what's the point.

Jesus Christ. Learn the language before you debate it.




Thadius -> RE: Satire at it's Finest (7/16/2008 1:39:37 PM)

Afternoon Tim,

Good to see you over here making friends [;)]

Hell I didn't know that much about the meaning of satire, thanks for the post.

I wish you well,
Thadius




Alumbrado -> RE: Satire at it's Finest (7/16/2008 3:44:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


If you feel that satire = ridicule, and that's the end of it, already there's a problem with definition.
<SNIP several pedantic copy and paste entries proving my point for me>

Jesus Christ. Learn the language before you debate it.


If you think that these folks are lying, then take it up with them.
If you are just trying to prove that you have no idea of what the word means, you win.

SATIRE
1387 (implied in satiric), "work intended to ridicule vice or folly,"
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=satire&searchmode=none




Thadius -> RE: Satire at it's Finest (7/16/2008 3:46:25 PM)

Who's vice or folly was being ridiculed?  Certainly not Obama's.




Alumbrado -> RE: Satire at it's Finest (7/16/2008 3:48:27 PM)

Are you saying that it isn't folly to believe the things ridiculed in that cover? 




Thadius -> RE: Satire at it's Finest (7/16/2008 3:58:58 PM)

I am saying that it breaches the outer spectrum... Usually satire is made to riducle the vice or folly of the target, ie something the target has brought upon themselves... Kind of like the Bushisms of strategery and such.

Just to take this off an individual for a moment... what would the response be to a cover on any reputable magazine portraying every stereotype of a specific race.  Calls of racism and bigotry would drown out any claims of satire, as the cover would be pointing out ignorant, and uneducated rumors.  Who is the target of the satire? The race or those that believe such?  I hope that makes a bit more sense, as to what I was trying to explain.

I simply found the cover to be tasteless, and as I have stated before in this thread I question it's satirical value as opposed to it being something to get a buzz going to bump sales.

Nothing more, nothing less.




Alumbrado -> RE: Satire at it's Finest (7/16/2008 4:07:25 PM)

Errm.... if you think Obama was the target of that cover, then you are indeed getting a different message from it.

It riducules those who expect Obama to be somehow or another apologetic for all the trumped up claims against him.




Musicmystery -> RE: Satire at it's Finest (7/16/2008 4:24:32 PM)

Thadius, you are swimming upstream here.

Just take a look at some of the "definitions" we've seen discussed so far--

People raised the issue of free speech---yet no one, here or elsewhere, has claimed the New Yorker didn't have the right to print the cover. Hence, by definition, there's no issue of free speech.

People have challenged the issue of whether the cover was offensive. Regardless of our individual reactions, clearly many people were offended (hey, that's why it's a news item!), and so by definition, clearly offensive.

Then we have our pseudo-sage Alumbrado, who feels that the American Heritage Dictionary, the Houghton Mifflin Co. Dictionary, the Oxford University Press, the Encyclopedia Brittanica, and the Columbia University Press, from whom I quoted those pieces on satire, are all in error. As I indicated, I could have gone on, but as I predicted, that wasn't going to satisfy Alumbrado anyway.

And who apparantly believes that any attempt to point out one's errors, even when those errors are gross misunderstandings, should be simply ridiculed as "pedantic."

Probably believes--erroneously--that's "satire."

Which end of the egg do you suppose will be opened tomorrow at breakfast?

[see--THAT'S satire.]

Enjoy the free lessons.

[see--THAT'S ridicule]

Gettin' it yet?

[see--THAT'S pedantic]

and Thadius--good to see you here, man!




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