Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem?

Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (Full Version)

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jlf1961 -> Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/18/2008 11:46:39 AM)
I just watched a true crime show called most evil. And it really got me to thinking (yes DA, we KNOW that is a dangerous thing.) Michael Stone forensic psychiatrist from Columbia University, has developed a scale rates murderers on a scale of evil that he has developed in order to help science understand homicidal behavior. Now, while it seems that every time something like Columbine or Virginia Tech comes up, people scream "GUN CONTROL." Now, I am going to ask a simple little question, where were the people that could have prevented these acts? I am not speaking of the police, I am speaking of the school and health professionals who should have seen the warning signs. Columbine, Virginia Tech and similar incidents are referred to as 'spree killings.' The person or persons committing these crimes has a history of anti-social behavior or nonsocial behavior. There are incidents involving rage outbursts in their personal history, and more often than not react in extreme manners to simple things. Take away the guns and you do not take away the potential for large numbers of people killed, you merely alter the methods used. Gun control has not stopped serial and spree killers in other countries, so why would anyone expect it to stop them here? The simple truth is that modern society is turning out these kind of people in droves. People segregate themselves by race, income, academic ability, 'beauty,' popularity and any number of factors that can and often does leave people out from an early age. With the human species being a social animal, why does it surprise us when someone cracks and begins taking lives after a lifetime of being an outcast? All too often the common response is, "It wasnt our fault he/she didnt want to join in." The truth is that it was our fault. We excluded these people. We deemed them non-entities, and we could care less what happened to them, until they snapped. This doesnt happen all the time, some people are naturally strong enough to brush aside the judgments of their peers. But when it does happen, people blame guns or the person who commits the act. Just think, that plain mousy person in your workplace, you know the one who just doesnt fit in, that never gets invited to go out with the guys or girls, may just be the next spree killer. kinda makes you want to make sure nobody is left out, dont it?

Vendaval -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/18/2008 11:57:26 AM)
Good topic, jlf. I have a theory that human nature has not changed but the structure of society and the methods for killing have. What exactly will push a person over the edge from homicidal thoughts to actual behavior is a difficult question. And the underfunded, understaffed and frequently neglected mental health services in the US are not able to predict all potentials.

jlf1961 -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/18/2008 12:03:56 PM)
I tend to agree. No guns does not equate to no murders or spree murders, it just changes the method. What I would like to know is, if the signs show at a very early age, WHY THE HELL DONT ANYONE DO ANYTHING? Surely these behaviors are noticed in school... oh wait, we are talking about the same school system that graduates students who cant read.

faerytattoodgirl -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/18/2008 12:05:46 PM)
quote: why does it surprise us when someone cracks and begins taking lives after a lifetime of being an outcast? yah...im gonna be the next serial killer just because im alone all my life... woooooooooooo...scary.....fear me...............

jlf1961 -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/18/2008 12:18:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: faerytattoodgirl quote: why does it surprise us when someone cracks and begins taking lives after a lifetime of being an outcast? yah...im gonna be the next serial killer just because im alone all my life... woooooooooooo...scary.....fear me............... Faery, I doubt if a hand full of over cooked spegheti constitutes a lethal weapon.... However, if you do go over the deep end, remember, you hear voices in stereo, AND your name is Joan De 'Arc

faerytattoodgirl -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/18/2008 12:21:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 quote: ORIGINAL: faerytattoodgirl quote: why does it surprise us when someone cracks and begins taking lives after a lifetime of being an outcast? yah...im gonna be the next serial killer just because im alone all my life... woooooooooooo...scary.....fear me............... Faery, I doubt if a hand full of over cooked spegheti constitutes a lethal weapon.... However, if you do go over the deep end, remember, you hear voices in stereo, AND your name is Joan De 'Arc and my real name is after a redheaded lesbian vampire from buffy...who was also a dark evil witch on the same tv show. scary isnt it.

MstrObjectmaker -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/18/2008 12:39:44 PM)
As someone who has always been a social misfit/outcast myself my entire life so far or as thay say in the UK "Billy No Mates", I would have to say that I have never wanted to go on a killing spree, I loath violence of any kind unless its of a BDSM nature and the parties involved are consenting adults. I have excepted that I am a loner, its just part of what makes me, who I am. Sometimes it gets to me and I have bouts of being lonesome, but then I just go to where other people are having fun and I just soak it up.

SeanPony -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/18/2008 12:49:33 PM)
Milton Waddams: [muttering] I could set the building on fire.

jlf1961 -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/18/2008 12:56:04 PM)
As I said, there are other factors that seem to go along with this type of killer, social outcast, prone to rage, self loathing, low self esteem, cruelty to animals at a very young age. It seems that one can be a social outcast and have a relatively healthy emotional life otherwise and suffer no ill effects. By the same token, when one condition is compounded with others, the end result seems almost inevitable.

philosophy -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/18/2008 1:28:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 No guns does not equate to no murders or spree murders, it just changes the method. ...i don't disagree with you that the system failed. Early warning signs clearly were missed. However i don't entirely agree with your quoted thesis. It's all true as far as it goes, but misses one point......a killing spree with a knife tends to take longer, it's also much easier to disarm a knife wielding person if there are a few of you (and although i've never been in the military i have disarmed someone trying to stab me)......that knife wielder has to get within touching distance, a gun wielder can perform their spree from on top of a church where they can't be jumped on by four passer bys.

Arpig -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/18/2008 1:34:11 PM)
Good point Philo

Leatherist -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/18/2008 1:43:01 PM)
No one shut out Ted Bundy. He was charming and had a wide social circle of unsuspecting friends and aquaintances. You cannot apply a narrow demographic or idea to a specific behavior.

MstrDennynSlave -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/18/2008 1:55:37 PM)
Most of the times the problem lies not with the parents or the school systems. I know of one woman fighting the medical establishment for help for her UM. To date, no one will help her. Shes just being normal, nothing wrong with her, things like that she hears. This UM tightened all the dogs collars, cause she said it was neat to see their tongues pop out of their mouths, had a butcher knife going after another UM in the family, cause she wanted to see blood. Unless health professionals are willing to help, the schools cant do much to help. I went through the same thing with my adult daughter, her whole childhood. Thank God, she turned out to be a great adult. But only cause I found someone willing to listen to me, and agree to help her.

jlf1961 -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/18/2008 1:56:33 PM)
There is a difference between a serial killer and a spree killer, and there are exceptions to every rule. However, if I may point out, the simple fact that the information for the construction of pipe bombs to other lethal items are freely available on the internet. As has been demonstrated, a pipe bomb is just as deadly as a rifle, and restrictive gun laws have not stopped spree killers in other countries. By definition, a spree killing is when a person or persons go on a rampage that leaves more than one person dead. The time period can be as little as 40 minutes or could stretch for days or weeks. The person committing the killings continues non stop until either he tires of the acts or is caught. A serial killer is one who's crimes are spaced out over a longer period of time, and who is very meticulous about his method and targets.

Leatherist -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/18/2008 2:01:36 PM)
They talk about how to make ricin out of castor beans too. It's extremely deadly. A pound could poison a city-so what is your exact point? The only people who get caught doing this shit are the ones who blab it before the fact. Which is why they never catch the human bomb types of terrorists. Basically,if someone really wants to do evil-there is only a limited amount that you CAN do to stop them. Do we jail everyone who makes any idle threat?

slaveboyforyou -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/18/2008 2:12:36 PM)
I just finished a book about Dennis Rader (BTK killer). It seemed like there were no warning signs with that guy. He led a perfectly normal life. Like most serial killers; he had an active private fantasy world, but no one knew about it. The book mentioned that he abused animals as a youngster like most serial killers, but no one knew about it. I don't think you can always blame people for not noticing. Everyone slips off by themselves once in awhile, and you never know what they are doing. Most people are not up to anything evil, and you don't ask. Of course there are those people that are acting out. I can't remember his name, but that guy who killed that family in Idaho was a convicted sex offender. He had been blogging for quite awhile about what he was thinking. Obviously, someone should have been paying more attention to that guy. Of course, I am of the opinion that violent sexual predators should never be let out of prison. I agree that intervention is needed immediately when warning signs appear. But those warning signs are not always evident. Sick people like that are going to slip through the cracks, and it doesn't matter how good of a mental health system we set up.

Rule -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/18/2008 2:14:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Leatherist No one shut out Ted Bundy. Bundy was a typical psychopath.

faerytattoodgirl -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/18/2008 2:16:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule quote: ORIGINAL: Leatherist No one shut out Ted Bundy. Bundy was a typical psychopath. so was al bundy...but he didnt kill anyone...

Leatherist -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/18/2008 2:19:34 PM)
Gary Ridgeway was similar too. I think he killed what, 60 women in my area over the years? "Green River Killer".......His career spanned over a decade-and looked pretty much normal to most people around him. Google it, it's very interesting to see what comes up.

sirsholly -> RE: Why look at the symptom and not the root of the problem? (7/18/2008 2:21:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule quote: ORIGINAL: Leatherist No one shut out Ted Bundy. Bundy was a typical psychopath. Rule...in my line of work i dealt with psychpaths on a daily basis. Ted Bundy was NOT typical.

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