RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to Submit~~

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RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to... - 7/19/2008 12:07:43 AM

StormsSlave

Posts: 629
Joined: 2/6/2008
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This is interesting. I suppose that it depends on the spirit in which it was said, but it sounds like once-bitten-twice-shy-type fear to me.

I am pretty independent. It's been a point of contention in relationships. I tend to make decisions, then discuss the decision. I've been a single mom for a long time, so independence comes with the territory.

My submission has nothing to do with my independence. My Lord loves my independence, and would lose his mind if I were not able to make decisions without consulting with him. Being submissive comes naturally, so I can't say I understand the viewpoint.

Don't know if this helps.

_____________________________

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(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 41

RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to... - 7/19/2008 12:52:21 AM

MidMichCowboy

Posts: 665
Joined: 3/23/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

For me, the women I prefer ARE the ones who rarely submit, who are not easy, who are strong willed and independent and who don't wear their submissiveness on their coat sleeves.

AMEN

_____________________________

I want to capture your mind, your spirit, your soul, your body, your devotion and your love. Then, will I give you my heart.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 42

RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to... - 7/19/2008 1:07:49 AM

MizSexyVixen

Posts: 137
Joined: 6/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Not bullshit. But that simple statement encompasses a lot of stuff implied but not stated. For one, starting a new relationship is always difficult for me. I don't do casual. I need to know a great deal about the other person including the fact that they plan to be there and not take off once they've put another notch on the bedpost. I don't know that from someone telling me so, I learn that from time spent with them, meaning months.

I bottomed to him way before I felt safe submitting. To submit meant I had to trust him. And trust is learned through joint history, seeing him over time in all kinds of situations. In effect; judging whether or not I felt he was someone worth submitting to.

And beyond that, I wasn't in the habit of following someone else's rules. So I needed a lot of time to slowly incorporate them into my life as new habits. That doesn't mean tell me once and then beat the crap out of me when I forget. It meant slow and patient teaching, reminding me, applauding the times I got it right so that I felt these new rules were good things. Damn few men out there with the patience and time to go at a speed I can learn at, and who don't expect Rome to be built in a day.

Lacking any of what I need, I don't submit, instead I cling more tightly to my independence.

This is exactly how I am, and I could not possibly have stated this better. TY Celeste

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(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 43

RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to... - 7/19/2008 7:54:55 AM

eyesopened

Posts: 2798
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Tampa, FL
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In my opinion it can be valid or bullshit or a little of both.
i've been independent for 70% of my life. i AM submissive. i AM extremely capable in a variety of things including original thought and good ideas. my Master doesn't want an automaton, (okay, yes, at times He wants a faceless automaton) He wants an intelligent and independant woman who submits to Him and fully acknowledges His Authority. By owning me, He owns my thoughts, ideas, knowledge, and talents.

Submission to me is always natural, but it is not always easy.

edited for typo

< Message edited by eyesopened -- 7/19/2008 8:01:23 AM >

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Proudly owned by InkedMaster. He is the one i obey, serve, honor and love.

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(in reply to SteelofUtah)

Post #: 44

RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to... - 7/19/2008 8:33:32 AM

goodgirl08

Posts: 145
Joined: 6/11/2007
Status: offline

I would have agreed with that a couple of months ago. But, then I met a man who makes me want to submit. It's not always 100% easy but the point is that I want to do it for its own sake, not because I feel like I should be doing it.

(in reply to eyesopened)

Post #: 45

RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to... - 7/19/2008 9:12:34 AM

corsetgirl

Posts: 824
Joined: 5/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

It is never hard with the right guy.
Now.. finding the guy... THAT is the hard part!
Kyst

I can relate to that experience!

(in reply to Missokyst)

Post #: 46

RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to... - 7/19/2008 9:16:57 AM

cuffncollar

Posts: 73
Joined: 1/21/2008
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I totally agree.....for me only the right man can make me want to submit to him.

(in reply to goodgirl08)

Post #: 47

RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to... - 7/19/2008 10:17:08 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah
I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to Sub...
So who calls Bullshit on this and who finds it Valid.

OK, I'll take the bait. I find it valid. In fact, not simply valid but about the only way it could be. Humans behave differently when they are in different roles. The perfect sub would be a lot less "subby" if she had a gun in her hands and someone was threatening her children -- different role, different behavior. We all know this... we do it every day. So given that, you have to think in terms of "transition time".... how long does it take a given person to change roles? Well, different people are different and, in addition, depending on how ingrained the sub/slave role was, it might take shorter or longer.

To make this really specific... my wife who hasn't been my slave very long (9 months now with no previous history of any sort of submission -- even in fantasies). This role is new to her relative to the "wife" role which is 11 years old. She is currently traveling visiting her folks where she is necessarily assuming a dominant role due to some issues going on there. I fully expect that when she returns to me tomorrow, she'll need to "settle into it" again.

The real question in my mind is not whether there is transition time, but whether the sub/slave in question WANTS to make the transition.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to SteelofUtah)

Post #: 48

RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to... - 7/19/2008 10:55:38 AM

smilingjaguar

Posts: 271
Status: offline

I have said that before. It wasn't said as an excuse. It was said more as "I want to do this, but I know I'm going to slip up a lot" sort of thing. Spending 18 months as the sole party responsible for a critically sick um and then having to flip that switch was difficult for me. I DID have issues letting go, but because of that conversation he knew it wasn't for lack of want. I get tense and uptight when I have to be the one who is ultimately in charge and get so stressed I can't let go when there is a legitimately responsible person there to take over. With some patience and reinforcement, I can be in a good place rather quickly. It's a lot easier to just express what's going on and deal with it.

But yeah, I get the feeling it's an excuse for brats a lot of the time, too.

(in reply to SteelofUtah)

Post #: 49

RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to... - 7/19/2008 11:13:27 AM

missturbation

Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
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~FR~

quote:

I honestly don't know because I am me no matter what and Dominant is something that I AM not something that I DO. So again what is your take on this idea?

I think the important thing to remember here is that as a dominant being independent is natural. In or out of a relationship you are the same. For a sub / slave a certain amount of dependence is there with her partner. On her own she has to be independent.
Therefore after a long period of being independent it could be hard for some to become dependent again. Hard for someone to submit to anothers will all the things they have had to do independently. Its a period of readjustment and no matter how submissive or slavelike a person is, change is still unsettling, takes some getting used to.

_____________________________

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(in reply to SteelofUtah)

Post #: 50

RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to... - 7/19/2008 5:12:39 PM

Maya2001

Posts: 1656
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
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quote:

Now this phrase was said as part of an introduction, to me this screams "I will Fight you on this" which to me makes it something they are not really willing to give. I don't want to take something from someone I want it given to me because they feel I am worth having it. Just as I give my Domination I want thier submission given. Is it Easy HELL NO, do I expectit from the first second? Hell No but I do expect it to make the relationship move forward and because of that the idea that opening statement is basically "I can't help it I have been independent for so long that I am not willing to completely surrender just yet" to me this was a Cop Out.

First off   I am going to start off by saying I did not read through all the replies

Sorry you view it as a cop out ...but I can tell you anyone that would view it that way I would not want to submit to

I spent the last 27 years looking after myself totally independent and raising UMs from infants to adult hood that meant make constant daily decisions inorder to stay on top of things.. and that meant having to often churn over options looking at them from different angles knowing that if I screw up I could put myself at risk .. and those I have to look after ... ever hear of empty nest sydrome .... the adjustment from being a mother with live in children to having them suddenly leave and you are no longer responsible can leave a very empty sensation and leave a mother who has become accustom of the routine of caring for the children very lost not knowing what to do with themselves and it can take them a couple years to finally get used to not having the children underfoot ..it can be a tough transition ...I have have went thru it myself so I know how rough that is ...

Imagine what kind of transition it would be for me having been responsible for everyone else for 27 years,   buying/paying and maintaining the roof over our heads, food on the table the nuturing, raising and disciplining children on your own , making the decisions everyday for 27 years on everything from the time I get up to the time I go to bed ... the start up and running of a home based business and working another job .. balancing the books and making sure everything is paid on time ,   now tell me in 6 months I have to give all that up for a TPE ....guess what???? it is going to scare the hell out of me... no way in hell am I going to be able to undo 27 plus years of daily routine and sole decision making without major insecurities/fears occuring and be able to adjust to letting someone else totally have control over me that would be like ending up in a major auto accident and being left paralysed from the neck down... a lot of emotional collapses and depression would occur taking away every thing that has become the norm in my life for such a long period and replacing it with serving only is not going to be enough for me it would be way too much to expect hell even in a vanilla relationship I could not dissolve that fast in 6 months to be ready to marry and I am just referring to property like home and business and other assets accumulated over 27 years it might take 2 years of dating to get engaged to where I feel I know you well enough to trust and another year maybe or more to dissolve my assets and discuss what what would be kept and what sold to be able to move in together..... So you may think I am giving bs excuses to cop out but what I would be saying is I can't do it that fast ...which means you are not listening to my needs... and I sure as heck wantt to know that person pretty darn well before tossing 27 year of my work and struggles away for them....and it sure as heck is not going to happen in 6 months

With dominants that I have been involved with the only "honest" answer I can give them is yes I can submit but I am unsure I can submit to a TPE relationship...most that are my age and older can understand and accept that once they know my background ... they understand   that kind of transition would be extremely difficult and understand it could take many years to achieve that level of submission so as not to bring harm and most would not even think to ask that of me ...they do not need that kind of power trip of total control to feel thay have my subsmission. ..instead they tell what areas of submission is important to them and ask if they feel I could submit to that ...knowing exactly what they want out of my submission to them rather than just demanding total submission from me makes it a lot easier for me to know what I am agreeing to submit to or whether I feel I am able to meet their needs... if someone said total TPE it could mean alot of different things... to them it may mean it is okay for me to continue working and maintaining my own accounting and looking after my own bills, and submitting fully sexually or looking after their home as they dictate and being vanilla outside of the home and with family ..but my view of TPE is far, far more restrictive so if they asked I could not agree because I would think they mean my definition/view of what TPE is ...yet might have agreed if I had understood clearly what they meant by it

So yes I can see a lot of women balking at terms like total submission or TPE   to many that will sound like you asking to submit to being a doormat and I agree with Missokyst when she said

quote:

And also, is the degree of control you prefer more in a my way or the highway style?

What you said in you OP comes off very much sounding like that... as someone who has independent for a long time and who has had to make a lot of very big decisions in my time...why would I want to submit in that way in a relationship where my thoughts, concerns and opinions are not considered important. I am old enough and wise enough to not most D/s M/s relationships are not lasting more that a few months ....maybe that is because so many are rushing to make their relatioships into total dominance /submission beofre getting to truly know each other and learning if they really are compatible first before jumping into the fire

_____________________________

Lead me not into temptation - I can find the way myself

(in reply to SteelofUtah)

Post #: 51

RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to... - 7/19/2008 5:18:29 PM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

It's not difficult with a dominant who is able to provide an environment in which you want to submit. Otherwise, yeah, it's difficult for me and pretty much nonexistent.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to SteelofUtah)

Post #: 52

RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to... - 7/19/2008 6:56:14 PM

Lockit

Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

Every time I have heard it, it was used as a way to stay in reserve or to stall. Basically they wanted an out and also said they wanted to go slow and see what happened. Funny how they didn't want to go slow for the good parts though! lol I often think it is a form of topping the situation or being able to get what they want, but not have to give what the dominant wants.

Personally I can see it this way. If you lay a foundation and someone has a struggle with something, that is different than declaring right off that they have been independent and haven't submitted or don't remember how or whatever. I look at the person saying it. If they have the intentions or motivations that seem real, cool... if it looks like an out or a stalling measure... I might just give them a whole lot more time before they get the benefits, because sooner or later, I would bet money that they would cry foul... I can't handle this and typically that comes when it is time to pay the piper in some way.

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 53

RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to... - 7/21/2008 8:57:37 AM

SteelofUtah

Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline

I have read through all of the replies and I have noticed a trend however that is not what I am going to discuss however the trend did illuminate quite a few things.

I wanted this to be about personal opinions however once again in many of the replies it has become about MY opinion and so I figured I would expand on this.

I won't go into responding directly to each individual but rather to what was said.

First no it is not possible to be in control at all times as a Dominant, If fact in most cases the only person I am able to exude dominance over at any given time while single is myself. Beyond that I am unable to demand or conrtol the actions of anyone else because they have not agreed to do so and to manipulate a situation just to get it to me is not Dominance it is Manipulation some see it as a Fine line but I do not. I agree that when single it is equally as difficult to remain submissive and life requires you to be Independant however I do not see submission as Dependance, I see it as a Symbiotic relationship, where both parties are equally served by the actions they engage in. Because of this the idea that someone has been Independant for so long should have NOTHING to do with thier submission.

Why? Well simply this I want my slave to be independant. I want her to be able to function regardless of if I am there or not. I WANT her to take initiative when I am not there and do it knowing that she will be found pleaseing for doing it.

See The whole Idea that a sub is unable to submit without a Dominant present to me is rediculas, because it is supposed to be in thier nature not in thier actions. Thier Nature, if submissive, when they find something that works then they are able to remain independant while submitting. To do one does not mean you cannot do the other.

Perhaps this cuts strangely for me because I see things so differently. I don't understand Micromanagement, nor do I understand Protocols written in books, or Contracts outlining the exact WAY the house is to be cleaned to me this does not PROVE submission it PROVES only Obedience and to me Obedience can be Taught, I do not believe submission can (I know there are hundreds wo disagree, well this isn't thier post now is it) I believe that just as This is something that I AM, and not something that I DO, submissive is something someone IS not something that they DO and either they will be themselves or they will find excuses not to.

The girl in question I never spoke to, for many reasons, but the opening line of "I have been Independant for so long, it is hard for me to submit" just rang the loudest to me for the simple reason that somehow you cannot be both.

I called Bullshit on this because it seems to continue with a new trend I have seen lately, That somehow doing things and always saying yes sir makes you a better submissive. PoppyCock. I can get my own damn cup of coffee, anyone can get me a cup of coffee, the fact that you bring me a cup of coffee with a smile when I ask for it does not a submissive make. No, I feel that is the the desire to be the one who brings the cup of coffee, I feel that more that the act of doing things for someone is the desire to WANT to do it and more over than that to recieve pleasure in knowing that of all the people who COULD be getting me that damn cup of coffee I have chosen them because it pleases me when they bring me that cup of coffee.

What I like most is the spin many have placed on what that one little phrase ment, It tells me a lot about how submission is seen on these boards.

I really look forward to more discussion on this as I liked where this was going.

Steel

_____________________________

Just Steel
Resident Therapeutic Metallurgist
The Steel Warm-Up © ™
For the Uber Posters
Thanks for the Grammatical support : ) ~ Term

(in reply to Lockit)

Post #: 54

RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to... - 7/21/2008 9:22:42 AM

chicagoswitch

Posts: 68
Joined: 6/11/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

No, I feel that is the the desire to be the one who brings the cup of coffee, I feel that more that the act of doing things for someone is the desire to WANT to do it and more over than that to recieve pleasure in knowing that of all the people who COULD be getting me that damn cup of coffee I have chosen them because it pleases me when they bring me that cup of coffee.

I could not have said it better. I want to be the one to do things for him and to please him. Doing so makes me happier than anything else could.

(in reply to SteelofUtah)

Post #: 55

RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to... - 7/21/2008 10:09:46 AM

Missokyst

Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline

Hmmm....
Then I can say honestly I am not submissive. I have no desire to be of service to anyone that is not important to me. With the notable exception of giving money to Red Cross, Habitat for Humanity, or St Jude's, and donating time to help in local disasters, I have no real desire to serve.

I DO enjoy being helpful, catering, heck.. down right spoiling people who are in my sphere. I like making sure things get done so that their life runs easier and by extension, mine as well. I enjoy it because it makes OUR life more comfortable. I do it because I love them and they are in the immediate sphere of things that matter to me.

I don't get all goofy with good feelings simply because they have allowed me to make things run smoothly. I don't get my pats of inner acceptance because someone has chosen me to get them a cup of coffee. Acts, do not make me get all glowy and giddy because someone is letting me cater to them.

If that makes a submissive then that is not me.

But I have given my submission over to some of the best, most wonderful men for me, who have filled my life with joy and pain, and more importantly, helped me see myself in a better light.
I have felt submissive to men who give me the knowlege that I can relax! I can pull back from this inner demon that tells me nothing I do is good enough. I can see myself in someone elses eyes that values me, accepts me, and makes things peaceful in my head.

And that does not come easy.
Finding a man who inspires that is difficult. Once found, letting my guard down is a process of learning him. And when safe, things just click. I want to get that damned cup of coffee. Not because it should please me that he is pleased. But because he is in my sphere of caring. He is important in my life and I have learned I can count on him to accept me, as me.

I am not submissive. But I have happily, contentedly, joyously, turned over the reigns to men who for years on end, have inspired me to feel safe.
Kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah
I feel that is the the desire to be the one who brings the cup of coffee, I feel that more that the act of doing things for someone is the desire to WANT to do it and more over than that to recieve pleasure in knowing that of all the people who COULD be getting me that damn cup of coffee I have chosen them because it pleases me when they bring me that cup of coffee.

(in reply to SteelofUtah)

Post #: 56

RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to... - 7/21/2008 10:37:52 AM

kyraofMists

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah
The girl in question I never spoke to, for many reasons, but the opening line of "I have been Independant for so long, it is hard for me to submit" just rang the loudest to me for the simple reason that somehow you cannot be both.

I called Bullshit on this because it seems to continue with a new trend I have seen lately, That somehow doing things and always saying yes sir makes you a better submissive.

Who are you to call it bullshit? As you said in a previous paragraph that I cut only for space concerns, there are hundreds who disagree with your idea of submission and maybe she is one of the ones who disagree with you. That doesn't make her wrong and you right, her idea bullshit and yours not; it just means you are not compatible.

I am an independent person; I am responsible for my own actions, thoughts, feelings, etc. I submit to one person. I submit (which is an action) by doing what I am told. When I first started submitting to him, I had to retrain myself to stop making certain decisions on my own and seek him out for the decision. It took work on both our parts to figure out the hundreds of little decisions that I make on a daily basis and find the ones he wanted to exercise authority over and the ones he didn't care about so delegated it back to me. Even after all this time, we occasionally find some other aspect of life that we hadn't considered before.

In the beginning, it was a challenge... now it is as easy as breathing most days.

However, I would not be considered submissive by your definition... but my life is only defined by one person, so I could care less if you think my struggles were just bullshit.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to SteelofUtah)

Post #: 57

RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to... - 7/21/2008 10:47:01 AM

SteelofUtah

Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline

See That is why I asked for Opinions.

And that is why I call Bullshit and I get to call bullshit because it is my Opinion.

As I have pointed out time and time and time again and again and again, this is for Opinions just as you stated yours I am afforded the right to state mine.

Thank you for stating your opinion.

However you and Missokyst have me highly mistaken something that narrow does not encompas my Definition of a submissive but along with many other things makes up a small part of it.

I never said that this is how I define a submissive, simply this is my Opinion on that phrase.

I am sorry if that hit a nerve, but I simply offered my opinion.

Steel

_____________________________

Just Steel
Resident Therapeutic Metallurgist
The Steel Warm-Up © ™
For the Uber Posters
Thanks for the Grammatical support : ) ~ Term

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 58

RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to... - 7/21/2008 10:56:16 AM

Missokyst

Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline

I think that is basically what so many of us said. There are SO many things that inspire us to submit. It is not simply a "Me Caveman (BONK), now you submit" that leads us to the desire and relief of submission. It is a process, a knowlege that with this person you can feel safe in submitting. There are many things that influence us which allow us to loosen our own reigns and turn that control over to another.
Many things, that take time, and adjustment.. and sometimes it is hard to find that one who inspires that submission.
Kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

However you and Missokyst have me highly mistaken something that narrow does not encompas my Definition of a submissive but along with many other things makes up a small part of it.

_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley

(in reply to SteelofUtah)

Post #: 59

RE: ~~I've been independent so long It's Hard for me to... - 7/21/2008 11:24:37 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
I think the important thing to remember here is that as a dominant being independent is natural.

For the record, I self-identify as dominant but I am very very dependent on my partner. She is the central focus of my life and her absence, even for trips as short as 3 days, affects me greatly.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 60

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