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RE: When do you say when? - 7/21/2008 3:05:10 PM   
whiteslavebitch


Posts: 479
Joined: 9/10/2007
Status: offline 		I was recently punished for the first time in the three years I have known MasterK.

He used a flogger that I hate and cannot stand to have used on me in ordinary play.

The punishment ceased when he felt it was enough, when I was crying (I never cry in front of others, I was trained in childhood not to cry, because my father hated it, and I still cannot cry in front of anyone.).

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formally collared 1/30/09

"I give to you my everything, you've given me these loving wings." - DMB

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RE: When do you say when? - 7/21/2008 3:11:00 PM   
sirsholly


Posts: 42360
Joined: 9/7/2007
From: Quietville
Status: offline 		I have a safe word for sessions but am not permitted one if being punished. 

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: When do you say when? - 7/21/2008 3:37:29 PM   
InsaenPleasures


Posts: 49
Joined: 4/27/2008
Status: offline 		So much of what we do in this lifestyle deals with intuition and a certain amount of empathy or at least the abilitry to understand human psychology.  In many ways both Dom and sub have to practice the psych sciences often without a license to fully understand what is going on.  Boundaries are meant to be tested and sometimes limits exceeded. That is how both sides learn.

Part of intuition is experience and I do not mean general "I have been in this lifestyle 4000 years" type of experience, I mean experience with the person in question.  That goes both ways, subs and slaves need to pay attention and know their Doms tendancies just as much the Dom needs to know his/her subs body and mind.  If you are expecting one kind of scene and the Dom is maybe doing something else, then that needs to be addressed in whatever means your relationship addresses such things.  From the what the original OP wrote it seems to me they are on two different pages.

Ultimately though I do not think anyone is in this lifestyle to be unhappy. Even Sadists and Masochists want to have happy and good times, so for me if the situation is causing unhappiness, I mean real unhappiness, its time to step back and evaluate what is going on.  Remember though there are no rules and no amount of peer pressure can make a Dom re-evaluate his or her ideas and procedures. Only his or her sub can truly make them understand that something is amiss.



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RE: When do you say when? - 7/21/2008 4:29:27 PM   
unfaithed


Posts: 43
Joined: 5/21/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
The other thing that bothers me - a lot - is that the sub reports that her Master enjoys punishing her.  If the punishment is enjoyable, the possibility of abuse is there.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Allondra

Since a punishment is not meant to be enjoyed, I have no problem using one that goes above and beyond my boy's normal pain threshold.  After all, if I didn't get beyond that, it would just be play, and not punishment.  That said, a punishment is usually brief and severe.  Once the point is made, it stops.  I don't see how drugging someone and then punishing them can work as a deterrent or lesson; they need to be fully present for the punishment to be effective.



These two ideas are what I think made me call the post into question in the first place.  I understand a sub being punished, but that punishment should be befitting the "crime" so to speak. The Dom in this instance seemed to take pleasure in her punishment. So much so that he had to intoxicate her first and *then* make her feel the pain, clearly going above and beyond what would be deemed appropriate measures, IMO.  It makes me very aware of the fine line we can walk between consent and abuse.

Thank you to all who have responded so far, your opinions are much appreciated.

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RE: When do you say when? - 7/21/2008 4:48:31 PM   
kallisto


Posts: 1185
Status: offline 		Agreed.  There is a fine line between consent and abuse.  

Punishment, is just that punishment.   It's not something that is meant to feel "good" to him or to me.  However, it's also not up to me to say how or when.  It's up to me to trust my Dom to administer the punishment that He sees fit.   

When playing, I want Him to push my limits.  I want Him to know me and to know how far He can push me and my tolerance.   I have to trust Him to know this or there won't be D/s relationship to begin with.    I've never had to say "when".   I guess I've been lucky in that respect.  

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RE: When do you say when? - 7/21/2008 5:57:31 PM   
SweetNika


Posts: 955
Joined: 4/19/2008
From: Forest Hills, Maryland
Status: offline 		As trust is built and that bond is made stronger, my owner’s limits become my own. That is why it is vital that we share common ground and have an open line of communication. There isn’t much I wouldn’t do to please my owner - after all he has promised to protect me and cherish me. I would make my owner aware through my body language that something was not enjoyable or that I was uncomfortable and I would leave it to his judgment weather he needs to stop or if we would continue. The ONLY time I would stop him is if I felt my mental or physical well being was in eminent danger or that there would/could be permanent damage caused if we continue. Would I lie to him if he asked if I was okay or if I wanted him to stop? No, because I am honor bound to be open and honest with him. Again if he continues or stops is his decision this is why I will NOT ever rush into a collar or certain types of scenes even once collared because it takes time to know each others bodies, how they react, as well  those triggers we each have.
 
Keeping that in mind I have NEVER EVER incoperated play with punishment, play is play discipline is something entirely different.

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RE: When do you say when? - 7/21/2008 6:14:18 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Either they end it or I realize to continue will damage my sense of self.  I do not often submit to pain anymore, but when I do, it is submission to their will.

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: When do you say when? - 7/22/2008 9:13:26 PM   
MaamJay


Posts: 2101
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline 		I'm not a fan of genuine punishment, I think guidance and correction from the Dominant and willingness to obey from the submissive should obviate the need for it. If there is open defiance from the sub, there is a relationship problem and we need a long talk!

That said, should a punishment be a suitable way of resolving an issue, allowing for closure, then it would NOT be doing anything remotely resembling play. And it wouldn't be something I would enjoy as a D either. Because I wouldn't want to place Myself in the position of hoping they fail so I can punish.

As far as crying in a play session goes, as a sub i have cried ... but it was a cathartic crying and i was keen to go there. Gave Master a bit of a shock though (i am usually the laughing girl). It had nothing to do with how hard He was flogging me ... and everything to do with something emotional going on inside me which to this day, i don't know exactly what it was about. He wouldn't want me to need to do that regularly though.

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

< Message edited by MaamJay -- 7/22/2008 9:14:40 PM >

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RE: When do you say when? - 7/22/2008 11:00:33 PM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		I have two modes of operation when it comes to stuff like this. There is casual/play mode and there is Ms relationship mode. The rules that apply to my collared/committed Ms relationship do not apply to my casual play partners. All this applies to play AND punishment.

I'll avoid the topic of safewords...'cause that another discussion that we've had several times (LA! Where's my list?)

With my casual play partners, I have no right to damage. Ever. I expect them to tell me if what I'm doing is heading that way and why. If they don't, chances are they're not mature enough with their own boundaries to really be a partner of mine long.

With my collared slaves, I DO have the right to damage, should I choose to do so. My girl has given me a list of things that will damage her. However, why would I? If I did, I would then have the responsibility of caring for a damaged slave. So, while I have the right, I don't exercise it. It'd be 1) a pain in the ass to care for them after and 2) irresponsible to begin with.

Master Fire
As a side note, I rarely punish and even more rarely to I punish physically.


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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: When do you say when? - 7/23/2008 6:09:31 AM   
mettadas


Posts: 30
Joined: 7/2/2008
From: Ottawa, ON
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sambamanslilgirl

if a punishment makes me feel uncomfortable (physically and emotionally), then i would immediately stop it. imho, that would be abuse not punishment or play.

A real punishment must be something that the subject would not wish to repeat in order for it to be effective.  Clearly then, discomfort is a necessary component, is it not?


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If he loves you, he'll take everything away.

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RE: When do you say when? - 7/23/2008 1:23:07 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tandm
I know that he will not hurt me to a point that it will cause perminate damage, but some things he does  go beyond my pain scope.


This line from the original quote communicates to me that we are not talking about abuse, that this isn't about harming someone.

Given my perception of the context...  I don't say when.  He says when.  He decides when enough is enough and when to stop. 

I do not perceive them as being punishments just becausee he is having fun and I am not.  In fact, the last time we played, I did not get any direct pleasure from it; it was all pure pain that I can't stand.  The pleasure came from knowing that I endured that pain for him and that he had a lot of fun.

I have also been delegated with the task of making sure that I am not harmed and if I think that something is going to harm me, then I speak up and let him know.  He then decides whether to continue or not.

Knight's Kyra

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RE: When do you say when? - 7/23/2008 9:39:37 PM   
KatsClaws12


Posts: 62
Joined: 4/24/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: unfaithed

I was reading another thread on crying during a session, and came upon this post:

quote:

ORIGINAL: tandm

To me, if a device or action was too painful that I had to stop all play, I wouldn't want to continue. If this happened repeatedly, no part of me would want to partake in that particular aspect of play ever again. I certainly would not want to try to dull the pain with alcohol and perhaps risk more damage being done, but that has already been discussed in plenty of threads. My question, though, is this:

At what point do you say it is too much? For the subs and slaves, how long do you go through with something that makes you hurt or uncomfortable (physically/emotionally) just to please your Dom/Master?



I go through what ever my Mistress thinks that I deserve. Now that being said.....She would never go so far as to use something to the degree of really truly hurting me to the point that I would be scared or need somthing to be able to withstand it. She has used things that I do not care for and really do hurt but I do and will accept my punisment to the best of my ability and take as much if not more then She thinks that I need/deserve. Some make me uncomfortable but She knows me Very well and always ask me if I am ok if She knows that it does hurt in the not so great way. She knows that I will do my best to take everything that I am able. I know that I am safe no matter what so, I do tend to take more then I can and or should. I am asked to keep a journal so that we are able to communicate on all levels. So if there is ever anything that I would have a hard time telling Her face to face then I can say it in the journal and She never judges me for that.

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RE: When do you say when? - 7/23/2008 9:52:01 PM   
joyinslavery


Posts: 955
Joined: 6/21/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LATEXBABY64

when they start to cut off things



A wonderful post and agreed.  Especially the head!  

Either one really.

Have fun.







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"...we must learn, each one of us, that the world was not made for us, and that, however beautiful may be the things we crave, Fate may nevertheless forbid them."
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Mainstream...The New Alternative

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Profile   Post #: 33
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