Take Me to Your Leader

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subtee -> Take Me to Your Leader (7/23/2008 4:53:50 PM)
Recently there have been a couple of threads indicating a type of manipulation on the part of a sub-type; “testing” or some other exploit in the interest of weeding out less than desirable Dominants. I’m not going to go into that because I can’t really get my mind around it… On the other side of the kneel, I’ve read, and have heard in my own experience, the sentiment that Dominants have a concern that they are somehow viewed as “weak” or less than Dominant because of an expression or situation that seemed innocuous enough, but for whatever reason caused the Dominant to be less than sure of, well, the appearance minimally or validity in the extreme, of his or her dominance. Is this cyclical? Is there a causal relationship? May I ask you, what would cause a sub-type to go down the path of manipulation? How can this be a valid starting point for an interaction? While I recognize Dominants are not hard-wired for absolute self-assuredness in all things, why would a Dominant worry about how the outward expression of his or her dominance is received? Who is leading?

RealSub58 -> RE: Take Me to Your Leader (7/23/2008 5:36:52 PM)
~~~~ff~~~~ You can please only one person totally, yourself. Self esteem and self assuredness come from within. Who really gives a flying ace what others think as long as the people who matter most are sincere, open and genuinely interested.

SimplyMichael -> RE: Take Me to Your Leader (7/23/2008 6:02:41 PM)
In general "testing" others is about your own internal insecurity. Having everyone "fail" your test means you are "better" than they are. People "test" relationships because they need reassurance that their partner really does love them. The healthy way is to say "I need X, we can compromise on how I get it but if you won't give me X, I will have to reevaluate the relationship"

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Take Me to Your Leader (7/23/2008 6:18:53 PM)
Agreed- it's all about insecurity. I refuse to engage.

MidMichCowboy -> RE: Take Me to Your Leader (7/23/2008 6:32:52 PM)
Do I care if someone wants to play games and calls me weak because I won't play them? No. My confidence comes from within me, not from any one person. I'm very comfortable with myself. I do think a sub should show some intelligence when they are talking to a new Dom. They should ask about things that could lead to a good life together. What are your beliefs? What do you think is important? What kind of life do you desire? What kind and where in your life, does the kinky side fit? How will you do the day to day life both vanilla and between the two of you? Can he satisfy her wants and needs, of all kinds? Can she satisfy his? Can they form a bond? Will there be love? Which of these are important will decide how well two people can do together. The silly little games .. well, I just don't have time for them.l If someone wants a serious discussion about the future, I'm ready to talk. If someone wants to play manipulative games ... they can go find some cock rooster to play with.

TreasureKY -> RE: Take Me to Your Leader (7/23/2008 6:44:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subtee Recently there have been a couple of threads indicating a type of manipulation on the part of a sub-type; “testing” or some other exploit in the interest of weeding out less than desirable Dominants. I’m not going to go into that because I can’t really get my mind around it… On the other side of the kneel, I’ve read, and have heard in my own experience, the sentiment that Dominants have a concern that they are somehow viewed as “weak” or less than Dominant because of an expression or situation that seemed innocuous enough, but for whatever reason caused the Dominant to be less than sure of, well, the appearance minimally or validity in the extreme, of his or her dominance. Is this cyclical? Is there a causal relationship? May I ask you, what would cause a sub-type to go down the path of manipulation? How can this be a valid starting point for an interaction? While I recognize Dominants are not hard-wired for absolute self-assuredness in all things, why would a Dominant worry about how the outward expression of his or her dominance is received? Who is leading? I'm afraid you've lost me on this one, subtee. I've read through your post several times now and I'm still not sure what you're talking about. Mind giving some kind of example? Are you asking if there is some kind of cycle involved where a dominant might feel insecure about his dominance in seemingly innocent situations? Are you asking if there is a casual relationship between submissives who test dominants and dominants who might occasionally feel insecure about their dominance? As for why some submissives feel the need to test... I would assume it's because they have or have had reason to doubt whether they are interacting with someone who meets their definition of dominant, and they want to make sure. As for whether this is a good way to start a relationship... I wouldn't think so, but if it works for them, more power to them. As to why a dominant might be concerned about how his/her dominance is received... I would imagine that if the dominant is interacting with a prospective submissive and he/she does not accept the dominance, then it pretty much ends the whole "prospective" aspect of the relationship. Who is leading? Well... I'd say that depends on who is following.

DiurnalVampire -> RE: Take Me to Your Leader (7/23/2008 6:44:25 PM)
If someone tests me, the relationship is over. I am not a trained poodle and I do not jump through hoops. Manipultion is someone's way of maintaining a sembalance of control over a situation that they are otehrwise out of control with. Thats way too passive aggressive for my tastes. If you want to submit to me, and you want to see what I am capable of, it has to be in real life situatons. Not in situations contrived by you to see if I pass or fail. DV

CrazyC -> RE: Take Me to Your Leader (7/23/2008 8:13:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subtee Is this cyclical? Is there a causal relationship? May I ask you, what would cause a sub-type to go down the path of manipulation? How can this be a valid starting point for an interaction? I guess if you are having a business contract then testing someone out would be fine. I understand that we have dreams of what the perfect dom is, but if we want a real relationship then we need to come to a point were we accept the person with their good points and bad. I always see people who "test" out doms as someone who is either nieve, or she is so full of herself that she wouldn't be able to love the dom for who he is but more of what her fantacy is. While I recognize Dominants are not hard-wired for absolute self-assuredness in all things, why would a Dominant worry about how the outward expression of his or her dominance is received? Because they are human.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Take Me to Your Leader (7/23/2008 8:35:29 PM)
I refuse to play the manipulation game. I am who I am, and that does not mean that I am perfect in every situation.

InsaenPleasures -> RE: Take Me to Your Leader (7/23/2008 8:50:51 PM)
There is a great episode of Babylon 5 (Season 2, Ep 21 I think, Come the Inquisitor) which shows how someone who failed badly becomes a tester of other people. Some of the things Delenn mentions during the cours of her testing is spot on about my feelings regarding that attitude. People do test one another all the time, but in subtle and most often acceptable ways. Blatant provocation is disrespectful regardless of role or type of relationship and as others mentioned, generally causes me to divorce myself from the situation. Do I have insecurities? Of course, but anyone who takes responsibility seriously has them. I do not let them slow me down or hinder me, however as that would be counterproductive.

SurrenderForMe -> RE: Take Me to Your Leader (7/23/2008 10:22:09 PM)
quote: May I ask you, what would cause a sub-type to go down the path of manipulation? How can this be a valid starting point for an interaction? While I recognize Dominants are not hard-wired for absolute self-assuredness in all things, why would a Dominant worry about how the outward expression of his or her dominance is received? Who is leading? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by manipulation. If it is subs testing dommes, then I've encountered it for my whole time in the scene. That type of person doesn't seem to see the dominant as a person, but as a tool for their satisfaction, do me subs. In that situation, they are people who want to top from the bottom. My general response to that is " I am not a blow up domme". I am not talking about the right that each person has to try to find out if someone is a match for them. A dominant can have things go wrong in their life, be insecure, or have moments of uncertainty. This goes back to not seeing the dominant as a person. Everyone has weaknesses, but there are some who don't believe that a dominant is allowed any. If the overall situation is that the dominant is indecisive, then maybe they are new or have mis-identified themself. I was just reading a thread on deciding where to eat and whether a dominant was considered weak if they didn't care. I have encountered that because I fit that description sometimes. Sometimes I just don't care. If someone sees that as not dominant, they are not the right person for me.

bashfulhuck -> RE: Take Me to Your Leader (7/23/2008 10:39:25 PM)
This thread has given me some food for thought, thank you very much for that. I personally don't test Dominants to see if they are worthy of my submission, because I think it's just a tad adolescent. I am however, very much an Alpha slave, and do study the people I interact with. If someone tells me they are a Dominant, that's all well and good, they just might not be the type that will make me want to bow my knee to them. And that's ok, we're all wired differently. However, I won't play games with them to see if they measure up to what I am looking for. Dominants are human beings first and foremost, and to play games with them would be dishonorable, and way beneath me. Just because I won't submit to just any Dominant does not mean that I shouldn't treat each one I run across with respect and dignity.

silkncarol -> RE: Take Me to Your Leader (7/24/2008 2:46:30 AM)
Amen brother... i totally agree with you here. I don't want to play those kind of head games....and i certainly don't want or need to "prove" my submissiveness...why would i expect a Dominant to prove his? quote: ORIGINAL: bashfulhuck This thread has given me some food for thought, thank you very much for that. I personally don't test Dominants to see if they are worthy of my submission, because I think it's just a tad adolescent. I am however, very much an Alpha slave, and do study the people I interact with. If someone tells me they are a Dominant, that's all well and good, they just might not be the type that will make me want to bow my knee to them. And that's ok, we're all wired differently. However, I won't play games with them to see if they measure up to what I am looking for. Dominants are human beings first and foremost, and to play games with them would be dishonorable, and way beneath me. Just because I won't submit to just any Dominant does not mean that I shouldn't treat each one I run across with respect and dignity.

BKSir -> RE: Take Me to Your Leader (7/24/2008 3:03:57 AM)
Pfft. In general, I don't give a flaming green testicle on a stick what others may think of my style of 'Being A Dom'. Yeah, I can be a bit of a softie, I probably spoil the hell out of my pet, I most likely should be a lot more strict and stern. BUT, he knows his place, and is unfaltering in his loyalty and never ceases to serve and please me and make me proud of him. So yeah, if someone wants to look down on me for that, fine, have fun with that. While they're looking down on me, I have my Dear One looking up to me, and I know beyond any doubt which one actually matters.

pixidustpet -> RE: Take Me to Your Leader (7/24/2008 4:50:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BKSir Pfft. In general, I don't give a flaming green testicle on a stick what others may think of my style of 'Being A Dom'. Yeah, I can be a bit of a softie, I probably spoil the hell out of my pet, I most likely should be a lot more strict and stern. BUT, he knows his place, and is unfaltering in his loyalty and never ceases to serve and please me and make me proud of him. So yeah, if someone wants to look down on me for that, fine, have fun with that. While they're looking down on me, I have my Dear One looking up to me, and I know beyond any doubt which one actually matters. i dont think that's what was meant...i took the OP as meaning "testing dominants on a regular basis within their own D/s relationship". your pet doesnt do that because he knows his place in your relationship, and what behavior to expect from you. your relationship works, and whose opinion matters outside of yours and his? [:)] Daddy and TheEngineer both spoil me...they indulge my need for reassurance, they allow for my insecurities. why? because like your pet, i know my place, i am loyal and i love them both dearly. and as long as they both love and wish to keep me, that's all that matters to me. kitten

WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Take Me to Your Leader (7/24/2008 5:54:04 AM)
I've seen what Subtee is referring to, in the posts on this message board. People saying they test dominants by being rude. Others saying to test the dominant's loyalty or fidelity by being sneaky. I just shake my head and cringe at such things. I'd never encourage anyone to play games or attempt to manipulate another in any fashion. It is poor conduct, to say the least. If you MUST play games with another, try Chess or Bullshit or Skipbo or something. WinD

Dnomyar -> RE: Take Me to Your Leader (7/24/2008 6:02:41 AM)
Insecurity is a part of life. This thing is are you going to let it stay a part of your life.

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Take Me to Your Leader (7/24/2008 8:00:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subtee While I recognize Dominants are not hard-wired for absolute self-assuredness in all things, why would a Dominant worry about how the outward expression of his or her dominance is received? Who is leading? Honestly, I've been called a 'cold hard bitch' for it, but I really -don't- worry how things I do will be perceived by a submissive-type person. Either we're a good fit for one another or we're not... that includes me being completely -me-... including my interest in participating in intensity-rich experiences. (Just as an example, yesterday I participated as the 'victim' in a non-consentual 'drowning' scenario, courtesy of Sclitterbahn Water Park -- AMAZING experience -- life flashing before my eyes, and a GORGEOUS chocolate-brown hand reaching into the rapids to pull me out, attached to the most incredible eyes I've ever seen! Yes, I'd do it again in a heartbeat!) On a purely academic level, I -am- curious how the 'other side' sees these things, if only because, even when I was on 'the other side', I don't think I saw things the way others who are more naturally flexible in that area did. I was a resistant, inflexible servant -- I had hard, strict, and rigidly enforced rules -- but as a creature of Chaos, that was the only way to manage me -- consistency. I get the feeling (though I've never been sure) that people who are naturally resiliant in the wake of dominance-applied pressure may see the world through a lens that I am intensely curious about, but may never understand. Because of this, I often ask my own servants (and listen with avaricious greed on the boards as other submissive-types talk) about their thoughts and feelings and about the things that impact their sense of yielding. No matter how much information I gather, though, I don't think that it will change my basic nature. If bowing to the House and spending 4 years in abject slavery didn't do it, then I'm pretty sure I'll remain bossy, demanding, and with excruciatingly high expectations... and fondly attracted to sharp objects, the metallic-crisp-sweet smell of blood, and the thick sweet-char smell of branded human flesh. Calla Firestorm

Owner4SexSlave -> RE: Take Me to Your Leader (7/24/2008 8:28:17 AM)
My thoughts on this subject. It's human nature to manipulate our (as humans) environment around us. Including other people at times. Everybody has their own established ways of doing it. Some people have Subterfuge down to an art form. Everybody has a sense of self esteem, that they often check. Nobody is 100% certain about anything, unless they are a true Narcissistic. I think some people simply get off on the idea that there D/s has to be 100% perfect. Meaning that it's impossible for the sub to ever manipulate the Dom/me, and that they Dom/me must be never have nor show any signs of weakness. The fact remains, we are all human, we all have our share of flaws and faults. D/s for many people has become over idealized at times in a fantasy mindset. Reality slips from some people about the human aspects.

Leatherist -> RE: Take Me to Your Leader (7/24/2008 8:32:35 AM)
1. You get what you put up with.. 2. If you see something you dislike, lose the fear of calling bullshit on it. 3. Accept the risks inherent in option two.

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