RE: Turner diaries (Full Version)

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Alumbrado -> RE: Turner diaries (7/26/2008 5:14:37 PM)

And again, are you saying the Protocols represent the views of Jewish extremists?, You keep lumping it in with other books that do represent the views of their authors, and you talk about various versions and minutiae, as though it had in fact been written to be what it purports to be, a Zionst takeover manual....



Thadius -> RE: Turner diaries (7/26/2008 5:18:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

And how exactly does one 'understand the minutiae' of a complete work of fakery? 
Surely you aren't claiming to have learned something about the viewpoint of the Elders?


I will assume you were aiming this at me.

Is it hard to look at the attempts to make it seem to be truth?  I am actually claiming to have learned something about the viewpoint of those that push it as a work of fact.

Just like I wouldn't claim to have learned anything about jewish culture from the mind of Hitler, or about "black" culture from the likes of David Duke, or that of "white" culture from the books by Welsing.

Reading the books and trying to understand them has nothing to do with agreeing with the positions that are presented (whether presented as fiction or fact), but more (at least for me) of looking at what they are trying to suggest as fact (while mixing half truths with their idealogy) to convince the ignorant that will gulp down whatever they are presented with because it fits with their preconceived notions.



Alumbrado -> RE: Turner diaries (7/26/2008 5:29:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Just like I wouldn't claim to have learned anything about jewish culture from the mind of Hitler, or about "black" culture from the likes of David Duke, or that of "white" culture from the books by Welsing.



So what is there to learn about Jewish culture from reading the Protocols?  Or were you referring to learning about Sir John Retcliffe?



Thadius -> RE: Turner diaries (7/26/2008 5:47:34 PM)

quote:


So what is there to learn about Jewish culture from reading the Protocols?  Or were you referring to learning about Sir John Retcliffe?



Are you becoming over sensitive to discussions of things like this?  I clearly stated that I do not learn anything about the various cultures discussed in such books.

First you are assuming that every edition and writing of the various titles called The Protocols (inclusive of all the variances), were based solely on the writings of Goedshe.  While there are definitely some similarities, there is no absolute proof that the entirety of the works were based on his "Biarritz".  As far as I know it is suggested that it may have lead to some inspiration for the original Russian text.

But let's step back for a moment and discuss the fact that the protocols suggest that there is some cabal behind a masterplan to take over the world.  Do I think this is accurate? Hell no.  There are such claims about the "Illuminati" and other groups as well.  Does that mean those claims should be taken seriously, much less after many scholars have debunked the many ideas presented in such works?

Let's now get to your underlying meaning for asking the question.  You are attempting to imply that merely reading such books and discussing them is enough to qualify for being placed on your "racist watchlist".  If we as a species are unwilling to discuss such ignorance, intollerance, and flat out lies, then we are doomed to continue falling into those same traps and allow the propagation of such extreme positions to go unchecked.




bipolarber -> RE: Turner diaries (7/26/2008 7:48:14 PM)

Thadius,

Well said. Freedom of speech extends to putting hateful screeds down on paper, and publishing them, every bit as much as standing on a soapbox in the park and preaching your lungs out about it. None of us may like them, but they are out there. I've always felt (as I implyed in my earlier post) that it's best to bone up on the people and organizations who are dangerous. Know thy enemy.

Or:

"The only valid form of censorship is the right of people not to listen." -Tommy Smothers



Alumbrado -> RE: Turner diaries (7/26/2008 7:55:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:


So what is there to learn about Jewish culture from reading the Protocols?  Or were you referring to learning about Sir John Retcliffe?



Are you becoming over sensitive to discussions of things like this?  I clearly stated that I do not learn anything about the various cultures discussed in such books.

First you are assuming that every edition and writing of the various titles called The Protocols (inclusive of all the variances), were based solely on the writings of Goedshe.  While there are definitely some similarities, there is no absolute proof that the entirety of the works were based on his "Biarritz".  As far as I know it is suggested that it may have lead to some inspiration for the original Russian text.

But let's step back for a moment and discuss the fact that the protocols suggest that there is some cabal behind a masterplan to take over the world.  Do I think this is accurate? Hell no.  There are such claims about the "Illuminati" and other groups as well.  Does that mean those claims should be taken seriously, much less after many scholars have debunked the many ideas presented in such works?

Let's now get to your underlying meaning for asking the question.  You are attempting to imply that merely reading such books and discussing them is enough to qualify for being placed on your "racist watchlist".  If we as a species are unwilling to discuss such ignorance, intollerance, and flat out lies, then we are doomed to continue falling into those same traps and allow the propagation of such extreme positions to go unchecked.




If you can prove any of that last, you have a million dollars waiting for you over at JREF[:D]...otherwise, you are just projecting your feelings onto others.

The only person impeding discussion of the Protocols as utter fogeries here, is you and your tap dance to avoid dismissing them as just that.

Here's a thought..how about anyone who doesn't want to be perceived as adhering to a certain ideology, doesn't regurgitate the talking points of said ideology?



slvemike4u -> RE: Turner diaries (7/26/2008 8:03:14 PM)

"Here's a thought..how about anyone who doesn't want to be perceived as adhering to a certain ideology, doesn't regurgitate the talking points of said ideology?"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote Alumbrado
You are of course speaking for yourself Al aren't you.You would not suggest that the rest of us are required to jump to the conclusions you so readily seem to....would you Al....



Alumbrado -> RE: Turner diaries (7/26/2008 8:20:13 PM)

Still waiting for that quote.....found it yet?



slvemike4u -> RE: Turner diaries (7/26/2008 8:21:30 PM)

What quote Al...and when did you start driving this bus!



Alumbrado -> RE: Turner diaries (7/26/2008 8:22:40 PM)

That's what I thought...keep up the fantastic work.



slvemike4u -> RE: Turner diaries (7/26/2008 8:24:39 PM)

My pleasure Al...anything else I can do for you?



Alumbrado -> RE: Turner diaries (7/26/2008 8:27:30 PM)

Besides providing a link to that imaginary quote you claim I said?....  No, keep up the 'fantastic' work. you are proving my points for me .



slvemike4u -> RE: Turner diaries (7/26/2008 8:32:41 PM)

And your points would be what Al....I am waiting on pins and needles to hear them!



Alumbrado -> RE: Turner diaries (7/26/2008 8:42:22 PM)

Why, that your postings are fantastic, of course....



slvemike4u -> RE: Turner diaries (7/26/2008 8:44:42 PM)

Thank You Al,it is so nice to be appreciated....but really I am such a shy and retiring type please don't make a fuss...



Thadius -> RE: Turner diaries (7/26/2008 8:45:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado


If you can prove any of that last, you have a million dollars waiting for you over at JREF[:D]...otherwise, you are just projecting your feelings onto others.

The only person impeding discussion of the Protocols as utter fogeries here, is you and your tap dance to avoid dismissing them as just that.

Here's a thought..how about anyone who doesn't want to be perceived as adhering to a certain ideology, doesn't regurgitate the talking points of said ideology?


Projecting what feelings?  Uhmmm... I am lost here.  What talking points am I regurgitating?  How am I impeding discussion?  I answered your question... Are you trying to say that scholars that claim that some influence for the Protocols can be attributed to works of somebody other than Goedshe (pen name Sir John Retcliffe) are somehow being supportive of what the books claim? 

I have already stated more than once, that what is in the book is nonsense, I have stated that what is in the book has been debunked by scholars.  So I am now stuck trying to figure out where you were appointed as the official censor of discussion.  I can most assuredly tell you that you have your aim at the wrong person for the wrong reasons.  If discussing the merits or the shortcomings of a particular position in a book automaticly mean I subscribe to those positions... Why have you not also claimed that I am promoting black supremacy?

You are more than entitled to your opinions, but I will not be silent when you attempt to smear my character.  It is you that is projecting some sort of bias here.  Since you are so willing to issue challenges, I challenge you to please point out any statement of mine here or anyplace else that suggests that I support any of the positions put forward in any of the 4 books that I named in this topic.

Just a final question... as I had to go look up JREF... What the fuck do they have to do with anything that is being discussed here?



Alumbrado -> RE: Turner diaries (7/26/2008 8:52:12 PM)

quote:

I challenge you to please point out any statement of mine here or anyplace else that suggests that I support any of the positions put forward in any of the 4 books that I named in this topic.


Do you have a link to where I said you supported them? 
Or are you just using your amazing mind reading skills to come up with these meanings you keep attributing to me, that don't match what I said?
Because if you have the ability to take the words "how about anyone ", and prove that I was only thinking of you, that'll get you the JREF million... otherwise, you might want to reconsider.



Thadius -> RE: Turner diaries (7/26/2008 9:17:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

quote:

I challenge you to please point out any statement of mine here or anyplace else that suggests that I support any of the positions put forward in any of the 4 books that I named in this topic.


Do you have a link to where I said you supported them? 
Or are you just using your amazing mind reading skills to come up with these meanings you keep attributing to me, that don't match what I said?
Because if you have the ability to take the words "how about anyone ", and prove that I was only thinking of you, that'll get you the JREF million... otherwise, you might want to reconsider.


If you are responding to my replies, and then presenting remarks like....

quote:


And how exactly does one 'understand the minutiae' of a complete work of fakery? 
Surely you aren't claiming to have learned something about the viewpoint of the Elders?


quote:


So what is there to learn about Jewish culture from reading the Protocols?


quote:


Here's a thought..how about anyone who doesn't want to be perceived as adhering to a certain ideology, doesn't regurgitate the talking points of said ideology?


And applying your already stated policy of making such judgements about whether somebody is a racist or not based on their uses of catch phrases, not to mention that you accused me of blocking the discussion and tap dancing around the issue.

And also claiming...

quote:


And again, are you saying the Protocols represent the views of Jewish extremists?, You keep lumping it in with other books that do represent the views of their authors, and you talk about various versions and minutiae, as though it had in fact been written to be what it purports to be, a Zionst takeover manual....


What other conclussion should be drawn from your words?  Especially since I have stated repeatedly that the work in them was nonsense.

You keep attributing the authorship of the Protocols to Goedsche... but neglect to include the findings that some of the Protocols were direct plagerisms of a satirical book by Maurice Joly.  So who is it that is derailing the thread or tap dancing around issues or topics? You seem to be fine with casting implications on what somebody is saying, but refuse to add to the discussion anything other than that.  Then when questioned on a particular issue, you claim that the person is deflecting, avoiding, in denial, because they aren't allowing you to dictate the exact discussion.  Debate and discussion are a 2 way street, you ask and answer, and expect others to do the same; well at least some of us do.





Alumbrado -> RE: Turner diaries (7/26/2008 9:43:55 PM)

quote:

What other conclussion should be drawn from your words?  Especially since I have stated repeatedly that the work in them was nonsense.


The logical conclusion would be that I was asking if the course you took left unanswered the question of whether the Protocols were in fact authored by Zionist Elders, as Mein Kampf was authored by a German, Isis was authored by an African-American, and Turner Diaries were authored by a white supremacist.

Given that one of those books was very different from the other 3, in that it alone was a forgery designed to look like extremist rhetoric, your continued lumping of it in with the other 3 as something to learn from, left that question open.

Going from being asked an obvious question, to seeing accusations where none exist is not the most logical approach, and less likely to yield a logical conclusion.



slvemike4u -> RE: Turner diaries (7/26/2008 9:57:39 PM)

And yet most of your "discussions"wind up in the same place.What conclusions would you draw?



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