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RE: Another church shooting - 7/30/2008 2:48:00 PM

apiercedkitty

Posts: 569
Joined: 2/22/2007
From: Michigan
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Well, that's where we have to agree to disagree. Maybe you should try target shooting with a handgun - a bit more challenging than a rifle with a scope. But that's just my "kink." Doesn't mean it's wrong.

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Post #: 181

RE: Another church shooting - 7/30/2008 2:52:23 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: apiercedkitty

Well, that's where we have to agree to disagree. Maybe you should try target shooting with a handgun - a bit more challenging than a rifle with a scope. But that's just my "kink." Doesn't mean it's wrong.

I don't use a scope. I use a scope on my deer rifle but not on my target rifle. That's strictly mechanical sights.

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Post #: 182

RE: Another church shooting - 7/30/2008 2:59:40 PM

FirmhandKY

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Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Yes Firm,unwilling to change a position that took me the 40 some years I have walked this earth to arrive at,sorry if your oh so eloquent arguments will not change what I have taken a lifetime arriving at

And what is my position BTW or have you already moved me to the "he's trying to take my gun's"category...you claim to be a law abiding citizen ,fine I will take you at your word...what is the problem with complying with additional laws designed to keep guns out of the wrong hands...we accept the government regulating who drives a car ,why should there not be more stringent regulations as to who owns a firearm...I don't want to take away your guns,I just want a society where there are less of them floating around on the street....

I gave my basic beliefs and position in post 152 (linked).

I've arrived at my position that took me the 40 some years I have walked this earth to arrive at, as well.

To expound a bit, I'm not against proper regulation of guns, but I do think that the "slippery slope" argument is valid, and should be taken into account when formulating new gun policy.

I think the "anti-gun" lobby has done more to encourage ignorance of firearms than anything else, making many people take a view of them that discourages education and familiarity. It has polarized the issue quite a bit, and then attempts to take the moral high ground. I sympathize with their stated intent (reduce violence) but believe that they ignore the unintended consequences, and fail to grasp the political impact of making guns difficult to obtain, and making them an area of specialized knowledge, which encourages more ignorance, and therefore makes it easier to later pass even more restrictive laws.

Again ... required education while a child. Strict penalties if used inappropriately, and encouragement for as many people as possible to carry and maintain as possible.

Firm

PS. Never said I was "a law abiding citizen". Sometimes I'm not.

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 7/30/2008 3:03:06 PM >

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Post #: 183

RE: Another church shooting - 7/30/2008 3:05:38 PM

apiercedkitty

Posts: 569
Joined: 2/22/2007
From: Michigan
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
I don't use a scope. I use a scope on my deer rifle but not on my target rifle. That's strictly mechanical sights.

Still a lil less of a challenge than sighting down a 4" barrel - with no sights.
But that's just my opinion on it.

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Post #: 184

RE: Another church shooting - 7/30/2008 3:15:02 PM

slvemike4u

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From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: apiercedkitty
....

i don't know about you - but i've been in a courtroom a time or two for tickets and i've witnessed quite a few people there that were driving without a license, driving on a suspended license, etc... hell, i have even known a few that have done it. Ya think more "driving" laws would change that? Nope - just like more gun laws won't change how/where criminals obtain them.
This is of course the most spurious and empty argument the pro-gun crowd puts forth.The idea that only laws that will not be broken need be codified,folks if people wouldn't break the law we would have no need of the law.There are penalties and sentencing awiating those that get caught breaking the law.

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If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

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(in reply to apiercedkitty)

Post #: 185

RE: Another church shooting - 7/30/2008 3:17:49 PM

apiercedkitty

Posts: 569
Joined: 2/22/2007
From: Michigan
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: apiercedkitty
....

i don't know about you - but i've been in a courtroom a time or two for tickets and i've witnessed quite a few people there that were driving without a license, driving on a suspended license, etc... hell, i have even known a few that have done it. Ya think more "driving" laws would change that? Nope - just like more gun laws won't change how/where criminals obtain them.

This is of course the most spurious and empty argument the pro-gun crowd puts forth.The idea that only laws that will not be broken need be codified,folks if people wouldn't break the law we would have no need of the law.There are penalties and sentencing awiating those that get caught breaking the law.

And there are already both state and federal laws in place regarding gun ownership. Seems to me it'd be better to strictly enforce those already in existence than to try to heap more on top.

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Post #: 186

RE: Another church shooting - 7/30/2008 3:26:02 PM

slvemike4u

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From: United States
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laws made ineffective by neighboring states lax position on the subject....Take New York for instance,how well served are they by the liberal laws of Virginia...no it will take Federal legislation to make any inroads in this area

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If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

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Post #: 187

RE: Another church shooting - 7/30/2008 3:44:34 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

The thing is, in the US, gun culture is just that....part of the culture. It has nothing to do with whether or not guns make you safe (pay for your own study and trumpet its findings), nothing to do with preventing crime, nothing to do with anything really. It all hinges on the fact that some people want their guns and will go to any lengths to keep them. Imagine some government in the UK trying to ban football. Or a government in Russia trying to ban vodka.

Come up with any arguments you like, but the US will not be giving up guns any time soon.

While I might disagree with some fine points, overall I think you are correct.

However, you will often hear the term "culture war" over here, because changing the culture is exactly what some are attempting.

Firm

......and this is why for me this is an issue where the ethical metal hits the road.
i'm committed to multi-culturalism. Not everyone is, but i am. By defining this as a cultural issue rather than, say, public health or law and order, it gives the issue a far less black and white complexion.
If i accept that a Sikh without his knife is, in a very real and cultural way, dishonoured......then i have to accept that, to some Americans, the right to own a firearm acts in the same way.

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Post #: 188

RE: Another church shooting - 7/30/2008 4:00:25 PM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

I think the best 'solution' I ever hear came from a comedian (Chris Rock?) who said - make bullets cost $100/each and gun violence would go down dramatically.

Chris rocks, but I already hear the litany of pro-guns nutters as they whine against that too.

Is there a Constitutional argument to be made for affordable ammunition?

Only if one agrees with the US Supreme Court's recent opinion very specifically saying that an unloaded weapon is not what the 2nd amendment means by 'the right to keep and bear arms'.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 189

RE: Another church shooting - 7/30/2008 4:11:03 PM

FirmhandKY

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Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

......and this is why for me this is an issue where the ethical metal hits the road.
i'm committed to multi-culturalism. Not everyone is, but i am. By defining this as a cultural issue rather than, say, public health or law and order, it gives the issue a far less black and white complexion.
If i accept that a Sikh without his knife is, in a very real and cultural way, dishonoured......then i have to accept that, to some Americans, the right to own a firearm acts in the same way.

Damn. The first time that "multi-culturalism" has ever done something in my favor ....

Not to change the subject ... but multiculturalism is another fine topic (for another thread) ... if we can keep all the rhetoric down, and discuss it calmly. But any time I've tried, I get loads of "true believers" coming in, and making a hash of everything. Oh, yeah ... and disrespecting my culture as well.

Firm

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Post #: 190

RE: Another church shooting - 7/30/2008 4:30:09 PM

slvemike4u

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Al how is that a constitutional argument for affordable ammunition?

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If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

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Post #: 191

RE: Another church shooting - 7/30/2008 4:38:37 PM

FirmhandKY

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Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Al how is that a constitutional argument for affordable ammunition?

That's an easy one. Without ammo, a gun is just apiece of refined metal.

Firm

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Post #: 192

RE: Another church shooting - 7/30/2008 4:41:57 PM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

Ask Scalia, he's the one who wrote that it was obvious that government regulations which resulted in the people having guns but not the ammo needed to use those guns, was contrary to the intent of the amendment...

I can see where the government imposing exorbitant taxes to make ammo unaffordable to any except the elite few would fall afoul of that.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 193

RE: Another church shooting - 7/30/2008 4:48:16 PM

slvemike4u

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All I asked is if affordable ammunition was a Constitutional issue in response to a Chris Rock joke,not suggesting the government control guns by means of the back door...

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If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

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Post #: 194

RE: Another church shooting - 7/30/2008 4:54:30 PM

Thadius

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Joined: 10/11/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

All I asked is if affordable ammunition was a Constitutional issue in response to a Chris Rock joke,not suggesting the government control guns by means of the back door...

As I have said before, the way they will backdoor ammunition sales is through defining which ammunition is banned.

I mean who could be against a ban of ammo designed to pierce body armor?

The tricky part comes in a year later when the definition of body armor is made to include common clothing (it does protect the body against the elements).

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Post #: 195

RE: Another church shooting - 7/30/2008 4:55:25 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Oh, yeah ... and disrespecting my culture as well.

Firm

....even you have a culture...

.... and multi-culturalism ought to work for you as well as anyone else.......heh......oddly enough, the event that sparked the OP of this thread is as good an example of cultural non-tolerence as any......i sincerely wish it hadn't spiraled into a gun control thread.
Multi-culturalism may actually be a way to unhijack the thread.........

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Post #: 196

RE: Another church shooting - 7/30/2008 4:59:05 PM

Thadius

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Oh, yeah ... and disrespecting my culture as well.

Firm

....even you have a culture....... and multi-culturalism ought to work for you as well as anyone else.......heh......oddly enough, the event that sparked the OP of this thread is as good an example of cultural non-tolerence as any......i sincerely wish it hadn't spiraled into a gun control thread.
Multi-culturalism may actually be a way to unhijack the thread.........

I think both would be considered on topic... as gun control is one suggested solution to these incidents in the future (not one I subscribe too, but still a valid point of discussion). I am still waiting for the protective bubbles to become more affordable

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Post #: 197

RE: Another church shooting - 7/30/2008 5:10:17 PM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

All I asked is if affordable ammunition was a Constitutional issue in response to a Chris Rock joke,not suggesting the government control guns by means of the back door...

It isn't a Consitutional issue if only comedians are joking about it... when politicians start seriously suggesting it, they are trying the famous 'end run' around the Bill of Rights....like literacy tests... OK in school...not OK at the polling place.

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Post #: 198

RE: Another church shooting - 7/30/2008 5:12:45 PM

slvemike4u

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From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

All I asked is if affordable ammunition was a Constitutional issue in response to a Chris Rock joke,not suggesting the government control guns by means of the back door...

As I have said before, the way they will backdoor ammunition sales is through defining which ammunition is banned.

I mean who could be against a ban of ammo designed to pierce body armor?

The tricky part comes in a year later when the definition of body armor is made to include common clothing (it does protect the body against the elements).

As a good a definition of the slippery slope argument as I have heard,and just as rediculous as all others.....

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to Thadius)

Post #: 199

RE: Another church shooting - 7/30/2008 5:15:34 PM

Thadius

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Not so rediculous, take a look at some of the bills that were written during the Clinton years... thank god none of them made it to his desk.

There was at least one that did exactly what I described, banned all ammo capable of piercing body armor.

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When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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Post #: 200

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