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Correction vs discipline or punishment - 8/1/2008 10:22:35 AM   
Hisgirl2playwith


Posts: 32
Joined: 7/16/2008
Status: offline 		Just out of curiosity, i would like to know how other people feel about these and what each means to them.
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RE: Correction vs discipline or punishment - 8/1/2008 10:37:42 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline 		To me, "correction" is an immediate re-direction meant to prevent or ameliorate an error or mistake. In our household, correction is what is done to keep a mistake from compounding itself, or to fix something for the immediate moment.

"Discipline" is the daily practice of working at one's skills. It is an ongoing process, and it is about development. Sometimes, discipline(s) can be extremely demanding and can feel like a punishment -- especially when additional disciplines are given in response to multiple corrections that display a flaw in progress, but discipline is -not- a punishment. It is meant to provide a foundation on which one can build a strong representation of self through one's practices.

"Punishment" is something to be avoided, if at all possible. It is often thought of as a reinforcement of corrections, but instead it often becomes either a source of resentment or a source of manipulation. Punishment, for me, often serves no useful purpose beyond salving someone's anger through cruelty. Discipline may be fully as harsh as punishment, but will, in the end, be an educational experience. Punishment rarely has an educational aspect, and at the end, there is only pain, indignation, fear, and loss of control... little is learned, except that a given behavior invokes pain or loss.



Calla Firestorm


_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

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RE: Correction vs discipline or punishment - 8/1/2008 10:41:25 AM   
sfdrew


Posts: 124
Joined: 6/15/2007
Status: offline 		We have a pretty good system in place to keep Her from physically abusing me out of real anger. She does punish me when She is really upset or angry with me but they are never physical punishments. Real punishments usually include things like denial of orgasm, or coffee, or some other thing. The most effective punishment is for Her to ignore me and not allow me to show affection toward Her. A lot of times the punishment will fit the crime. She would dunk my head in the toilet and flush it whenever I forgot to put the lid down and that worked pretty well.



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RE: Correction vs discipline or punishment - 8/1/2008 11:11:06 AM   
Hime


Posts: 149
Joined: 10/31/2006
From: Vegas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hisgirl2playwith
Just out of curiosity, i would like to know how other people feel about these and what each means to them.


Correction is immediate. Like...don't chew with your mouth open - stop smacking your gum - stop fidgeting - etc...

In my relationship Discipline isn't necessarily a daily practice.  Example being; a few weeks ago my sub told me that he hadn't committed my phone number to memory and....that he was going to do so.  Well, just the other day I decided to give him a Pop Quiz!  I asked, "What is my phone number."  To make a long story short....he didn't know it (after two weeks from the day he said that he would commit it to memory).  So, for his "discipline" (the lesson being to memorize my phone number) he was required to write out my phone number over and over again until he memorized it.

And as for "punishment" (in our relationship) - it is often related to pain, suffering, or loss as a result to a blatant disregard to a rule, ritual, protocol, or agreement that is in place.  And keep in mind that punishment does not necessarily result in physical pain.  Example: My boy did not follow through on a weekly task - that is actually quite important to our relationship.  And, for his "punishment" - I enforced "No Contact" between us for 24 hours....total silence!  (no calls, email, or even a text)  In that time he was required to finish his task and, to think about what was occurring and why.


~xoxo

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RE: Correction vs discipline or punishment - 8/1/2008 11:27:06 AM   
Hisgirl2playwith


Posts: 32
Joined: 7/16/2008
Status: offline 		oh man that would kill me. There's not much right now that will get my attention faster than being asked if i need to be left alone for a day or two.

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RE: Correction vs discipline or punishment - 8/1/2008 11:28:34 AM   
OnlyHisLovebug


Posts: 56
Joined: 7/14/2008
Status: offline 		I actually see correction, discipline and punishment as three distinct things.

Correction is telling someone that that they need to improve a behavior.  It's letting them know that they have to make a change.  I don't necessarily agree that it has to be immediate; as I think being corrected can be done retroactively.

Discipline is more a process.  I see it as being about making a 'disciple', a follower.  It's something I view in a very positive light.  Discipline is about teaching and exploring ways to reach a set goal.  It conjures thoughts of training and instruction as a way to meet certain expectations.

Punishment is, by it's very nature, punitive.  It's about being chastised for not having met certain requirements.  It involves retribution for some wrong or slight.   

   

_____________________________

If you press me to say why I loved him, I can say no more than because he was he, and I was I. ~Michel de Montaigne

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RE: Correction vs discipline or punishment - 8/1/2008 11:44:19 AM   
Hime


Posts: 149
Joined: 10/31/2006
From: Vegas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hisgirl2playwith
oh man that would kill me. There's not much right now that will get my attention faster than being asked if i need to be left alone for a day or two.


Exactly! 

And believe me...."No Contact" is not an easy thing to endure; especially when two people truly enjoy the others presence (in any form).  And, it sucks because both of us suffer from it.  My boy knows that I take great pleasure from him and, in order to deny him attention....I must deny myself as well - I know that hurts him most of all because, he truly is a man that loves to keep me happy.

He says, "No Contact is the worst punishment in the world."

~xoxo

< Message edited by Hime -- 8/1/2008 11:45:22 AM >

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RE: Correction vs discipline or punishment - 8/1/2008 12:21:59 PM   
MsJssk


Posts: 67
Joined: 3/28/2008
From: Austin, Texas
Status: offline 		We lable things to give us a better understanding of each other. But then we work too hard at making the lables perfect and percisely defined we loose sight of the communication. Labels aide us in communicating, when they cease to make communication easier, they cease to be useful. We have gotten in a horrid habit of replacing lables to give the impression of a change of meaning. A prime example is the word consequesne. Twenty years ago someone decided that children should not be punished, they sould recieve appropriate consequenses for thier actions. Now, ask any 12 year old what a consequense is. He'll give you a great definision of a punishiment. I've even hear it used as a verb, "I'm gonna consequent you."

That said, punishments are a technique used in behavior modification. It can be seen as a method of discipline or a method of redirection or simply a tool in behavior modification. It means inflicting some sort of pain or undesired sensation to deter a particular behavior OR denying some sort of pleasure for the same purpose.

Redirection can also be a tool in behavior modification. It is essentailly chaning the focus or attention of the subject to an object or behavior that is perfered.

Discipline is a huge word that refers to a several of concepts associated with behavior modification and can be used an an umbrella term for the tools we use to modify behavior.

Of course, all these words overlap and their differences are subtle and often the only difference is in who is using the word.

MsJ

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RE: Correction vs discipline or punishment - 8/1/2008 1:34:38 PM   
HeavansKeeper


Posts: 1254
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

To me, "correction" is an immediate re-direction meant to prevent or ameliorate an error or mistake. In our household, correction is what is done to keep a mistake from compounding itself, or to fix something for the immediate moment.

"Discipline" is the daily practice of working at one's skills. It is an ongoing process, and it is about development. Sometimes, discipline(s) can be extremely demanding and can feel like a punishment -- especially when additional disciplines are given in response to multiple corrections that display a flaw in progress, but discipline is -not- a punishment. It is meant to provide a foundation on which one can build a strong representation of self through one's practices.

"Punishment" is something to be avoided, if at all possible. It is often thought of as a reinforcement of corrections, but instead it often becomes either a source of resentment or a source of manipulation. Punishment, for me, often serves no useful purpose beyond salving someone's anger through cruelty. Discipline may be fully as harsh as punishment, but will, in the end, be an educational experience. Punishment rarely has an educational aspect, and at the end, there is only pain, indignation, fear, and loss of control... little is learned, except that a given behavior invokes pain or loss.



Calla Firestorm



That's beautiful, and exactly the theory I hold with My Pet. I wish there was something I could add =).

_____________________________

The Loving Owner of HisHeavan

... You've waited your whole life for this moment...

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RE: Correction vs discipline or punishment - 8/2/2008 1:10:48 AM   
MaamJay


Posts: 2101
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline 		I'm basically in agreement with Calla, though correction can either be immediate or occur later as appropriate to the situation. Discipline for Me is much more about self-discipline rather than imposed, though it's a fine line I guess if a sub is keeping My orders as to what to wear eg out of self-discipline or whether I have imposed it! I guess if I am there to check it is My discipline imposed, if they are alone but choose to wear what I have ordered, it is self-discipline in action. As to whether the discipline is harsh or not depends on your point of view ... I didn't think asking a girl to wear skirts was harsh but apparently she saw it differently!

Punishment is something generally to be avoided, it shows a breakdown in communication on both My part and the sub's. I would punish only for deliberate and willful disobedience of a known rule. The punishment would not involve anything remotely resembling play, would fit the crime if possible, or involve extra tasks (that the sub doesn't enjoy), or denial of privileges. No contact is the most extreme punishment in My book. And yes, if it's something that punishes Me as well as the sub that adds an extra twist as long as the sub cares! (My ex-hub got past caring!)

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

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Life is a song ... and I love singing it! (By me!)

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RE: Correction vs discipline or punishment - 8/2/2008 5:17:31 AM   
ProtagonistLily


Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

To me, "correction" is an immediate re-direction meant to prevent or ameliorate an error or mistake. In our household, correction is what is done to keep a mistake from compounding itself, or to fix something for the immediate moment.

"Discipline" is the daily practice of working at one's skills. It is an ongoing process, and it is about development. Sometimes, discipline(s) can be extremely demanding and can feel like a punishment -- especially when additional disciplines are given in response to multiple corrections that display a flaw in progress, but discipline is -not- a punishment. It is meant to provide a foundation on which one can build a strong representation of self through one's practices.

"Punishment" is something to be avoided, if at all possible. It is often thought of as a reinforcement of corrections, but instead it often becomes either a source of resentment or a source of manipulation. Punishment, for me, often serves no useful purpose beyond salving someone's anger through cruelty. Discipline may be fully as harsh as punishment, but will, in the end, be an educational experience. Punishment rarely has an educational aspect, and at the end, there is only pain, indignation, fear, and loss of control... little is learned, except that a given behavior invokes pain or loss.
Calla Firestorm


The above is true of our house as well. As the slave, I find that it's the most effective way to change behaviors and deepen skills. Punishment has rarely occurred - he finds it counter productive and an inherent pain in the ass for him. I find that his expression of disappointment or satisfaction is usually enough.

PL

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~Dr. Seuss~

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RE: Correction vs discipline or punishment - 8/2/2008 7:47:30 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

To me, "correction" is an immediate re-direction meant to prevent or ameliorate an error or mistake. In our household, correction is what is done to keep a mistake from compounding itself, or to fix something for the immediate moment.

"Discipline" is the daily practice of working at one's skills. It is an ongoing process, and it is about development. Sometimes, discipline(s) can be extremely demanding and can feel like a punishment -- especially when additional disciplines are given in response to multiple corrections that display a flaw in progress, but discipline is -not- a punishment. It is meant to provide a foundation on which one can build a strong representation of self through one's practices.

"Punishment" is something to be avoided, if at all possible. It is often thought of as a reinforcement of corrections, but instead it often becomes either a source of resentment or a source of manipulation. Punishment, for me, often serves no useful purpose beyond salving someone's anger through cruelty. Discipline may be fully as harsh as punishment, but will, in the end, be an educational experience. Punishment rarely has an educational aspect, and at the end, there is only pain, indignation, fear, and loss of control... little is learned, except that a given behavior invokes pain or loss.



Calla Firestorm



I really like the way this is stated.  I would only add what Maam Jay said here...
Punishment is something generally to be avoided, it shows a breakdown in communication on both My part and the sub's. I would punish only for deliberate and willful disobedience of a known rule. The punishment would not involve anything remotely resembling play, would fit the crime if possible, or involve extra tasks (that the sub doesn't enjoy), or denial of privileges. No contact is the most extreme punishment in My book. And yes, if it's something that punishes Me as well as the sub that adds an extra twist as long as the sub cares!
...to make it damn near perfect.

Nicely stated Calla and MaamJay...

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RE: Correction vs discipline or punishment - 8/2/2008 7:54:58 AM   
DiurnalVampire


Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		My versions arent all that much different.
Correction is fixing a mistake or adjusting a behavior. Mistakes happen, on my side as well as his. We correct one another, if we notice them, this is not exclusive to the submissive. Behaviors being crrected is excluseive to the subs, though, because they are learning to do things my way, whic is not alwasy the way they originally learned.
Discipline is repetitive practices. They build skills, they correct problems and they build endurance and strength. This is like a physical regement as much as it is a mental one.
Punishment is only for severe breaks with what should be. Knowing ones, too, not accidental ones. If someone knowingly disobeys or ignores an order ther ewill be a punishment. If they do something they know I do not like, just because they can or they want to, there will be problems. If there is a problem that has been corrected multipe times and the correction has been ignored, there will be a punishment. It is a last resort, and is not always very effective. However my boys are worried enough about what it might be (neither has ever actually been punished) that they have never psuhed me to it.

DV


_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

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