RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck (Full Version)

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DomKen -> RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck (8/5/2008 10:43:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The gallup daily has Obama with a 4 point lead.

http://www.gallup.com/

BTW firm you never acknowledged your error on the economy thread.


When I make an error, I'll admit it.

As far as the Gallup poll, read my next post.

Firm


You were in error. I showed it and you ran away. Now normally I'd let it lie but since you were so insulting over the issue I'm going to keep calling you out on it till you acknowledge your errors.




Thadius -> RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck (8/5/2008 10:51:14 AM)

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/general_election_match_up_history 

All of their daily numbers from June 4th through today...  There is a definite trend.


Edited to add: the column with links to all of the other info.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/daily_presidential_tracking_poll




FirmhandKY -> RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck (8/5/2008 10:51:32 AM)


From the Huffington Post (not exactly known to be a right-of-center institution):

The Molten Core of Barack: Why Obama Can't Win

Alex Castellanos
Posted August 4, 2008 | 09:11 PM (EST)
Obama returned from Europe triumphant. ... McCain took another blow when Iraqi Prime Minister Malaki stamped the Good Housekeeping seal of approval on Obama's Iraq exit strategy.

...

Add the steepest drop in home prices in 20 years, the weakest auto sales in 15 years, gas prices that have tripled since the Bush Administration took office, the "lets-stay-in-bed" lack of enthusiasm among McCain's own voters who support him as "the lesser of two evils", and a president whose approval ratings have rocketed to one point above his all-time low, and this election should be slam dunk for the gangly, three-point jump shot artist once known as "Barry O'Bomber."

Could Barack Obama possibly get any luckier? It turns out, yes, he can. ... Senator Ted Stevens, has been indicted on seven felony charges. A timely poster-boy for Republican corruption, he will be cooked publicly on his own clandestinely secured Viking grill.

Barack Obama should not have to hit a three-pointer to win this election. It should be a lay-up. Yet if Senator Obama is doing so well, why is he doing so poorly? And if John McCain is doing so poorly, why is he doing so well?

The Rasmussen Reports Daily Tracking has McCain down only 1%, 43% to Obama's 44%. Real Clear Politics National Average of surveys pegs McCain less than 3% behind, with Gallup showing it tied, and USA Today actually placing McCain ahead of Obama, 49% to 45%. CNN reports McCain is in a better position in Colorado, Michigan, and Wisconsin than he was a month ago and they have moved Minnesota toward McCain into the toss-up category. Give them credit, despite the occasional criticism from this McCain supporter and others, John McCain's maverick band of campaign warriors are keeping this race competitive ...

Despite the McCain campaign's effectiveness, however, the best campaign against Barack Obama is not being run by his opponent, but by Barack Obama.

...

At each place and stage, as Barack Obama chronicles the chapters of his life, he tells us how he has re-invented himself, becoming the role he inhabits, though not falsely or in-authentically, like Bill Clinton. He actually seems to transform himself, becoming what must be next. He has been called distant, aloof and somewhat unapproachable, perhaps because we cannot approach what he does not have, a solid core. His soul seems to be molten and made up of dreams, which is at once breathtakingly inspiring and forbiddingly indeterminate.

...

John McCain is a complete and well-formed man. Barack Obama is completing himself. As he moves to fit what he perceives to be a right-of-center country, he distances himself from the simple and authentic passion of a young candidate who once pledged "Change We Can Believe In."

This is the trap Barack Obama has made for himself, the one he cannot escape, the one Hillary Clinton foresaw, the one that may doom him. The Obama campaign knows it too.


In my mind, this article is spot-on when it comes to the main differences between the two candidates, and Obama's biggest weakness.

A trend is not made up of a single poll (such as the gallup that you linked to above), but of all the polls, taken in gesalt, and what they show is happening in the minds and hearts of American voters.

Absent some really good campaign changes, or major McCain screw-ups ... Obama is toast.

Firm




DomKen -> RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck (8/5/2008 10:53:11 AM)

Keep dreaming.

Now about that recession you claimed didn't happen...




FirmhandKY -> RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck (8/5/2008 11:06:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You were in error. I showed it and you ran away. Now normally I'd let it lie but since you were so insulting over the issue I'm going to keep calling you out on it till you acknowledge your errors.


In other words, when I decide that there is no more utility in the discussion, and decide to leave it in peace to as not to embarrass you, or have you go into another one of your hysterical emotional insult attacks ... you threaten to stalk me?

Man ... you may be more twisted than even I originally thought.  Please show me where I was "insulting" to you in the other thread.  Compared to your personal attacks, I was the very model of decorum.

Please reconsider your plans.  I do not wish to further embarrass or trouble you over the matter, but I will also take (appropriate) action when threatened.

Firm




DomKen -> RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck (8/5/2008 12:38:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You were in error. I showed it and you ran away. Now normally I'd let it lie but since you were so insulting over the issue I'm going to keep calling you out on it till you acknowledge your errors.


In other words, when I decide that there is no more utility in the discussion, and decide to leave it in peace to as not to embarrass you, or have you go into another one of your hysterical emotional insult attacks ... you threaten to stalk me?

Man ... you may be more twisted than even I originally thought.  Please show me where I was "insulting" to you in the other thread.  Compared to your personal attacks, I was the very model of decorum.

Please reconsider your plans.  I do not wish to further embarrass or trouble you over the matter, but I will also take (appropriate) action when threatened.

Firm


Let me make it easy for you then. You intentionally misrepresented numbers to make a political point and I called you on it and you ran away. In my book that makes you a coward. You apparently thought you could get away with it because generally I'm a nice guy but I don't take the sort of crap you tossed around in that thread so here's your options. Admit you were in error and apologize or have me continue bringing this up in threads you're in from now on.




ModeratorEleven -> RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck (8/5/2008 12:50:53 PM)

It's deja vu all over again.  Chill out folks.

XI





MusicalBoredom -> RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck (8/5/2008 1:20:11 PM)

At this point numbers that are close mean it's still a toss up.  Most national polls that get published in the main stream media tend to be conducted to be as accurate as possible as the pollster has his reputation on the line and will hopefully be in business for many more elections to come.  (I used to be a pollster until I just couldn't live with myself anymore.)

The troubling trend for me is that we have two candidates that are both pretty descent guys who appear to have their hearts in the right place but are on two opposite political extremes.  That two candidates who have two completely different agendas can be all but tied in popularity shows me the polar extremes that exist in this country today.  Even on these boards we have plenty of good people, full of intelligent thought, who are firmly rooted in disparate beliefs.  I'm not sure how we can truly make any real progress when we are so "bi-polar" as a country.  To me this indicates a great deal of passion, backed by logical reasoning leading to completely different methods for achieving what is important to us.

In my opinion, at some point we need to drop the method discussion and concentrate on the results we want as a country.  After we come to some consensus as to what our "outcome" priorities are (as opposed to "method" priorities) then we can talk about which methods we believe will work.  Emotionally charged rhetoric about how great or how fucked up some candidate is is not much different than watching any other media induced frenzy.  Let's ("us" as in the country) drop the BS and concentrate on what we really want to achieve as a nation.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck (8/5/2008 1:50:31 PM)

FR: 

44 states worth of current polls.

In all of them that I read, Obama is going down, McCain is coming up;

State Poll results.

Firm






DomKen -> RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck (8/5/2008 2:23:51 PM)

According to your chosen polling site McCain has 184 electoral votes to Obama's 238, 270 needed to win. These states are within the margin of error for the polls discussed and could be tossups: New Hampshire, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Michigan, Indiana, Ohio, North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana, Colorado, New Mexico and Nevada. If Obama wins the 3 smallest of the 6 undecided midwest and southern states he wins. McCain has to sweep the rest of the undecideds and win 4 of the 6 midwest and southern undecideds including either Ohio or Michigan (the two biggest undecideds right now) to reach 270. Doesn't look good for McCain.

Here's a simple interactive map that will let you see this for yourself:
http://www.270towin.com/




FirmhandKY -> RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck (8/5/2008 2:34:20 PM)

My illustration is the trend, Ken, not the final Electoral College results.

Firm




DomKen -> RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck (8/5/2008 4:11:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

My illustration is the trend, Ken, not the final Electoral College results.

Firm


Actually you're trying to produce a trend where there isn't one. Gallup's daily has been tracking this race for a long time and the polls move up and down  but there isn't any trend eviden t from the data.

Rasmussen's polling is showing a narrowing of the race but hasn't shown that this is outside the margin of error and is therefore statistically insignificant and shouldn't be used in any discussion. Realistically all Rasmussen shows is that the race is, nationally, a dead heat. But popular vote don't count.

What matters is the electoral college and when you start putting the state by state polling data on the electoral college map it becomes pretty clear things are bad for McCain.  CA, NY, IL, NJ and PA (worth 143 electoral votes) are solidly behind Obama (4 of the 5 by double digits) while McCains biggest 5 states, TX, FL, GA, TN and MO, only add up to 98 electoral votes. Normally the GOP can count on sweeping the mountain and upper great plains states to make up that gap but this year MT, SD, ND and NV are up for grabs along with the atlantic coast of the south. Which means McCain needs to get serious about shoring up his base while having to go all out for MI, OH since he has to win one of the them and take all the other undecided states to win. With McCain still far behind in fund raising he will be hard pressed to compete in every undecided state and still put on the full court press he absolutely has to do in Ohio and Michigan.

McCain needs Obama to fall apart and he needs to somehow drive down the turnout of newly registered voters which all indications favor Obama by a hefty margin. Personally I anticipate a grassroots voter registration drive surpassing anything ever seen nationally for this election which would further hurt McCain.




celticlord2112 -> RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck (8/5/2008 4:29:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

The funny part is Carter burned through a 30 point lead he had at the end of July to barely hang on, Dukakis a 20 point lead at the end of July. Firm hit it on the head, traditionally the Dems poll at 5 points higher than they will actually get and Repubs poll 10-15 points below what the actual turnout is.

This election cycle should and does favor Dems, and generic polling shows them polling anywhere from 15-20 points higher than Repubs, except in the presidential election where it is now a dead heat. Something is getting lost in the execution, and makes me wonder why Obama is not polling better.

In every election there is a persistent "throw da bums out" sentiment. It tends to burn itself out as the election itself draws near and people make the actual decison on for whom they will vote.

Obama's weakness is that, if that sentiment is removed from the current polls, Obama would trail McCain in the polls.

Obama barely won the Democratic nomination (and if the superdelegates so chose, they could still hand the nomination to Clinton). He never delivered a knockout blow to Clinton, and his celebrity tour of the Mid-East and Europe has not altered the polls one bit. As well scripted and well staged as it was, there should have been a bigger bounce than that--I frankly expected him to come back to the States with a double digit lead in the polls.

The Democrats should be very worried--their chosen one has yet to show he can seal the deal. He's got two more chances before the long knives come out in the fall to deliver: When he names his VP candidate and his acceptance speech in Denver. If he doesn't get a large bounce from those, Michelle will not be moving to Washington anytime soon.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck (8/5/2008 4:36:13 PM)


*shrugs*

Ok.

I'm willing to wait for the result (not that I've got much of a choice ... ). Neither side, I think can currently claim the Oval Office as of yet.

Perhaps you haven't read some of my posts, where I give my beliefs about McCain, and you assume somehow that I am a hard partisan for him.

Actually, I am contempating voting for Obama, for strictly long-term reasons.

The Republican elected officials, for the most part, have abandoned their conservative principles and base.  This, I believe, is why they are currently in such a state of disarray and voter apathy for the party.

I don't think of McCain as anywhere close to holding conservative ideals.  I believe that he is basically an opportunist, though not as bad as many politicians. As a result, I don't think that my conservative values will be particularly advanced by him being in office.

As far as I can see, he and Obama are pretty much the two sides of the same mainstream political animal, one side leaning left, the other leaning right, but neither particularly committed to anything but their own personal power.

If McCain is elected, however, his programs, policies and history will be attributed to the "conservative" movement by many, leading to further degradation in the ability of conservatives to have a voice in the government.

On the other hand, if Obama is elected, his disastrous policies and amateur fumbling will be laid directly on the door of the leftist ideology from which he springs, and the counter-reaction could easily lead to a conservative resurgence.

But the rub ... ahh, the rub ... is the damage to our nation that I believe Obama will inflect.  Is the long-term possible gain, worth the short-term damage?

I'm still thinking about it.

Firm




Sanity -> RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck (8/5/2008 5:16:58 PM)


Just ask yourself, was Reagan worth Carter.

Think carefully about this, because in how many ways was Carter a disaster. He blindfolded and hogtied the CIA, he gave Iran to the  radicals on a silver platter, he gave away the Panama canal... just to name a few things - and we're still paying dearly for his stupidity. On the other hand, Reagan ended the cold war, brought us out of recession, made us proud again - but he never was able to undo nearly all of the damage that Carter wrought.

And we still may have had Reagan even without Carter...


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


*shrugs*

Ok.

I'm willing to wait for the result (not that I've got much of a choice ... ). Neither side, I think can currently claim the Oval Office as of yet.

Perhaps you haven't read some of my posts, where I give my beliefs about McCain, and you assume somehow that I am a hard partisan for him.

Actually, I am contempating voting for Obama, for strictly long-term reasons.

The Republican elected officials, for the most part, have abandoned their conservative principles and base.  This, I believe, is why they are currently in such a state of disarray and voter apathy for the party.

I don't think of McCain as anywhere close to holding conservative ideals.  I believe that he is basically an opportunist, though not as bad as many politicians. As a result, I don't think that my conservative values will be particularly advanced by him being in office.

As far as I can see, he and Obama are pretty much the two sides of the same mainstream political animal, one side leaning left, the other leaning right, but neither particularly committed to anything but their own personal power.

If McCain is elected, however, his programs, policies and history will be attributed to the "conservative" movement by many, leading to further degradation in the ability of conservatives to have a voice in the government.

On the other hand, if Obama is elected, his disastrous policies and amateur fumbling will be laid directly on the door of the leftist ideology from which he springs, and the counter-reaction could easily lead to a conservative resurgence.

But the rub ... ahh, the rub ... is the damage to our nation that I believe Obama will inflect.  Is the long-term possible gain, worth the short-term damage?

I'm still thinking about it.

Firm





FirmhandKY -> RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck (8/5/2008 10:57:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Just ask yourself, was Reagan worth Carter.

Think carefully about this, because in how many ways was Carter a disaster. He blindfolded and hogtied the CIA, he gave Iran to the  radicals on a silver platter, he gave away the Panama canal... just to name a few things - and we're still paying dearly for his stupidity. On the other hand, Reagan ended the cold war, brought us out of recession, made us proud again - but he never was able to undo nearly all of the damage that Carter wrought.

And we still may have had Reagan even without Carter...


Well said, and written, and to a large extent I sympathize.

However, I'm still debating with myself.  My gut says to hold my nose and vote for McCain, but my brain is fighting it.

While you have a valid point, I would suggest any immediate damage that Obama would cause could be somewhat ameliorated within two years, when the congressional elections would doubtless give control of the Congress back to the Republicans.  Republicans are much truer to conservative ideals when they aren't in power ... but ... but ... perhaps the current crop is still too deeply committed to big government and would be pretty much the mirror image of the Democratic Congress as under Bush.  They got elected with the expectations that they would "reign in" Bush, and sorely disappointed the voters who placed them there.

Other than on the foreign affairs front, I don't think McCain will do much different than Obama will in his first term, and likely with a still Dem controlled Congress ... if he disappoints the conservative base as strongly as I anticipate, then both the Congress and the Presidency would end up as Dem in the 2012 election, and likely stay that way for at least another 8 years.

With Hillary or Obama as President?

How much more long term damage can giving them 8 years of a unity government cause us?

Dunno.  I'm still thinking.

Firm




DomKen -> RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck (8/5/2008 11:25:46 PM)

You guys are puzzling. You're assuming Obama is incompetent. All the evidence indicates otherwise. While it may not please you the facts are, a solid indicator of how good a leader is who he chooses to put in subordinate positions and how well he lets them do their jobs. Obama was a very successful director of a huge voter registration project and his campaign staff has perfected a new way to raise funds for a national campiagn as well as innovatively handle the smear campaigns against him.

The only experience differences between the two candidates is that McCain has also run a USN squadron. But it was definitely smaller than his campaign organization and all indications are McCain hasn't chosen staff well or let them alone to do their jobs.

So really if you're voting on who would be the better chief executive it's a toss up. Neither has the sorts of red flags in their background that GWB had. Although it does appear that McCain is the one having the most trouble running his organization so if that is really the basis for your decision making you should have no trouble supporting Obama.

However this doesn't look like any concern over the competence of the candidates it looks like a couple of right wingers trying to smear a guy they don't think can be beat any other way.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck (8/6/2008 12:20:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

You guys are puzzling. You're assuming Obama is incompetent. All the evidence indicates otherwise.


Not sure why you are puzzled, unless you just aren't use to people actually talking, rather than ranting about their politics.

As far as Obama being "competent" or not, in the end it doesn't matter.

If he is competent, and is effective in getting a lefty agenda in place, then that, in and of itself is damaging to the US.

If he is incompetent, he will either allow Pelosis's Congress to railroad him with counterproductive laws (I don't trust the Republicans to do much other than play "get along" again), and destroy Americans security through well meaning and totally disastrous policies.  Carter did much the same, being a primary cause of the current GWOT with his Iranian policies and his "stagflationary" economic policies.

So, it really doesn't matter if he is competent or not ... he will cause damage the US regardless.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

However this doesn't look like any concern over the competence of the candidates it looks like a couple of right wingers trying to smear a guy they don't think can be beat any other way.


See my first sentence in this thread.

If you'd stop getting all pissy and insulting every time you posted, perhaps you'd find that we aren't all asshats.

Firm




Thadius -> RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck (8/6/2008 3:44:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

How much more long term damage can giving them 8 years of a unity government cause us?

Dunno.  I'm still thinking.

Firm



I do agree with your thoughts on the short term sacrifice, honestly the thought has crossed my mind as well.  The one thing that snaps me out of it though, is 2 simple words.  Supreme Court.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Obama and McCain - Neck and Neck (8/6/2008 4:59:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

How much more long term damage can giving them 8 years of a unity government cause us?

Dunno.  I'm still thinking.

Firm



I do agree with your thoughts on the short term sacrifice, honestly the thought has crossed my mind as well.  The one thing that snaps me out of it though, is 2 simple words.  Supreme Court.


Do you think McCain will actually nominate a conservative judge?

Regardless of what I think of Bush, there are two things he got right, for the long term:

1. His judges,
2. His reaction to jihadism.

I suspect McCain will do "ok" on #2.  I'm not so confident on #1.    Obama, I think will screw up - a lot - on #2, but in the long run, reality will force his hand.

So the question does come down to the Supremes.

Who's likely to retire in the next four years?  In the next 8?  And what is McCains record on conservative judges?  (the Senate 8 ring a bell?)

Firm




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