Paper ballots this November? (Full Version)

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Vendaval -> Paper ballots this November? (8/6/2008 11:14:34 PM)


Say what!  We are going to be voting the old fashioned way this year?  You must be joking, right!    [sm=Groaner.gif]
 
 
"Record number of US voters may cast paper ballots"
 
 
By ALLISON HOFFMAN, Associated Press Writer
Wed Aug 6, 4:24 PM ET

"SAN DIEGO - Come November, more Americans might cast their ballots on paper than in any other election in U.S. history.

That wasn't supposed to happen. If everything had gone according to the government's $3 billion plan to upgrade voting technology after the hanging-chad fiasco in Florida in 2000, that sentence would read "electronic machines" instead of paper.

Instead, thousands of touchscreen devices are collecting dust in warehouses from California to Florida, where officials worried about hackers and fed up with technical glitches have replaced the equipment with scanners that will read paper ballots."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080806/ap_on_el_pr/paper_voting




DomKen -> RE: Paper ballots this November? (8/7/2008 12:06:43 AM)

The optical scan machines are really the superior option. They give an immediate indicator of whether the ballot is read properly and provide a recount and audit capability in the form of the physical ballots. The various touch screen machines had so many issues a lot of people decided the manufacturers were trying to facilitate fraud. Until all that stuff is worked out most of the touch screen voting machines shouldn't be used.




Thadius -> RE: Paper ballots this November? (8/7/2008 12:12:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The optical scan machines are really the superior option. They give an immediate indicator of whether the ballot is read properly and provide a recount and audit capability in the form of the physical ballots. The various touch screen machines had so many issues a lot of people decided the manufacturers were trying to facilitate fraud. Until all that stuff is worked out most of the touch screen voting machines shouldn't be used.


I completely agree.  The scantrons are a far better solution, besides the accuracy, they have a permanant paper record of each ballot cast.  I just hope the instructions clearly state "FILL IN THE ENTIRE BOX, to ensure your vote is counted" to avoid any of the guessing if a recount does occur, you know the type of question about if there is a black dot in a box, did this person want to vote here....




DomKen -> RE: Paper ballots this November? (8/7/2008 12:29:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The optical scan machines are really the superior option. They give an immediate indicator of whether the ballot is read properly and provide a recount and audit capability in the form of the physical ballots. The various touch screen machines had so many issues a lot of people decided the manufacturers were trying to facilitate fraud. Until all that stuff is worked out most of the touch screen voting machines shouldn't be used.


I completely agree.  The scantrons are a far better solution, besides the accuracy, they have a permanant paper record of each ballot cast.  I just hope the instructions clearly state "FILL IN THE ENTIRE BOX, to ensure your vote is counted" to avoid any of the guessing if a recount does occur, you know the type of question about if there is a black dot in a box, did this person want to vote here....

There are two things that act to prevent that occurence.

First is we've all taken standardized test using scanned answer sheets. Filling in the whole bubble is pretty well taught and reminders are on the ballot in every place that uses them that I've looked into.

Second is the voter feeds the ballot into the machine when he's done. All the scan machines that I'm aware of are capable of indicating that a voter over voted or cast no vote in a specific race. You can simply cancel the scan take that ballot or a new ballot back into the booth and try again.




Thadius -> RE: Paper ballots this November? (8/7/2008 12:36:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The optical scan machines are really the superior option. They give an immediate indicator of whether the ballot is read properly and provide a recount and audit capability in the form of the physical ballots. The various touch screen machines had so many issues a lot of people decided the manufacturers were trying to facilitate fraud. Until all that stuff is worked out most of the touch screen voting machines shouldn't be used.


I completely agree.  The scantrons are a far better solution, besides the accuracy, they have a permanant paper record of each ballot cast.  I just hope the instructions clearly state "FILL IN THE ENTIRE BOX, to ensure your vote is counted" to avoid any of the guessing if a recount does occur, you know the type of question about if there is a black dot in a box, did this person want to vote here....

There are two things that act to prevent that occurence.

First is we've all taken standardized test using scanned answer sheets. Filling in the whole bubble is pretty well taught and reminders are on the ballot in every place that uses them that I've looked into.

Second is the voter feeds the ballot into the machine when he's done. All the scan machines that I'm aware of are capable of indicating that a voter over voted or cast no vote in a specific race. You can simply cancel the scan take that ballot or a new ballot back into the booth and try again.


We all haven't taken standardized testing using scanned answer sheets.  First you have those that have been home schooled (that may or may not have ever taken one), then you have some of our older citizens that haven't taken them.

If I choose not to vote in or on a given question, I can choose to override the undervote, then if a recount occurs, I don't want there to be any guessing whether a defect in the paper, or a small ink spot constitutes my voting in that particular question.  That is why I want the instructions to be VERY clear about what will constitute a vote, UP FRONT.

Other than that, I agree with you.




JulieorSarah -> RE: Paper ballots this November? (8/7/2008 1:44:54 AM)

Australians use paper and pencils ... yep pencils, no pens in all elections.




DarkSteven -> RE: Paper ballots this November? (8/7/2008 5:44:14 AM)

Florida gets all the press for botched elections, but Colorado hasn't been able to get it together either.

It amuses and scares me that we engineers could have a workling electronic system in a few months but the folks runnign the country haven't been able to do it in eight years and counting.




hopelessfool -> RE: Paper ballots this November? (8/7/2008 5:52:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The optical scan machines are really the superior option. They give an immediate indicator of whether the ballot is read properly and provide a recount and audit capability in the form of the physical ballots. The various touch screen machines had so many issues a lot of people decided the manufacturers were trying to facilitate fraud. Until all that stuff is worked out most of the touch screen voting machines shouldn't be used.


I completely agree.  The scantrons are a far better solution, besides the accuracy, they have a permanant paper record of each ballot cast.  I just hope the instructions clearly state "FILL IN THE ENTIRE BOX, to ensure your vote is counted" to avoid any of the guessing if a recount does occur, you know the type of question about if there is a black dot in a box, did this person want to vote here....

There are two things that act to prevent that occurence.

First is we've all taken standardized test using scanned answer sheets. Filling in the whole bubble is pretty well taught and reminders are on the ballot in every place that uses them that I've looked into.

Second is the voter feeds the ballot into the machine when he's done. All the scan machines that I'm aware of are capable of indicating that a voter over voted or cast no vote in a specific race. You can simply cancel the scan take that ballot or a new ballot back into the booth and try again.


We all haven't taken standardized testing using scanned answer sheets.  First you have those that have been home schooled (that may or may not have ever taken one), then you have some of our older citizens that haven't taken them.

If I choose not to vote in or on a given question, I can choose to override the undervote, then if a recount occurs, I don't want there to be any guessing whether a defect in the paper, or a small ink spot constitutes my voting in that particular question.  That is why I want the instructions to be VERY clear about what will constitute a vote, UP FRONT.

Other than that, I agree with you.


I dont know how it is in other states but since 00 PA has required all home-schooled students to take the PSSA and Terrinova testing. You can not move onto the next grade until you complete them.




Owner59 -> RE: Paper ballots this November? (8/7/2008 6:12:02 AM)

 I don`t see what the big deal is.

You get a receipt from the ATM w/ out much trouble.How many billions of transactions are handled securely and accurately?

We can`t fix the election fraud and computer programs designed to cheat?

We can`t have a paper ballot or a read-out of our vote,in the case of a re-count?

We sent a man to the moon.We can fix this and make voting legitimate again.


Don`t let DieBold tell you it`s not possible or to expensive to do.Look how expensive George Bush has been.




thishereboi -> RE: Paper ballots this November? (8/7/2008 6:13:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

There are two things that act to prevent that occurence.

First is we've all taken standardized test using scanned answer sheets. Filling in the whole bubble is pretty well taught and reminders are on the ballot in every place that uses them that I've looked into.

Second is the voter feeds the ballot into the machine when he's done. All the scan machines that I'm aware of are capable of indicating that a voter over voted or cast no vote in a specific race. You can simply cancel the scan take that ballot or a new ballot back into the booth and try again.


I am not sure if they are reading it when I feed it in the box or not, but I know I left several areas unmarked on yesterdays ballot and no one said anything.




Thadius -> RE: Paper ballots this November? (8/7/2008 6:13:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I don`t see what the big deal is.

You get a receipt from the ATM w/ out much trouble.How many billions of transactions are handled securely and accurately?

We can`t fix the election fraud and computer programs designed to cheat?

We can`t have a paper ballot or a read-out of our vote,in the case of a re-count?

We sent a man to the moon.We can fix this and make voting legitimate again.


Don`t let DieBold tell you it`s not possible or to expensive to do.Look how expensive George Bush has been.




Has there been a thread that you have entered without taking a shot at Bush, McCain, or "neo-cons"?




Owner59 -> RE: Paper ballots this November? (8/7/2008 6:39:05 AM)

Yes.

So?

I`m I that interesting to you that you`re keeping a count?

lol

<flattered>




Thadius -> RE: Paper ballots this November? (8/7/2008 6:57:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Yes.

So?

I`m I that interesting to you that you`re keeping a count?

lol


Nope, just an observation.  It is a curious fixation you have though. 




Owner59 -> RE: Paper ballots this November? (8/7/2008 7:09:50 AM)

 

I care about America and Americans.After 8 years of failure,debt and death,it`s therapeutic.

Why do you assume the position of apologist and defender of the indefensible?



Surely, masochistic and like shoveling sand against the tide.

Yes?





Thadius -> RE: Paper ballots this November? (8/7/2008 7:19:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59



I care about America and Americans.After 8 years of failure,debt and death,it`s therapeutic.

Why do you assume the position of apologist and defender of the indefensible?



Surely, masochistic and like shoveling sand against the tide.

Yes?




I am a masochist because I don't take your opinion as fact?  I haven't been an apologist for anybody, and what indefensible position have I attempted to defend? 

I should point out that there is a huge difference between being anti-Obama and being pro-McCain.  I am the former, but not the latter, at least when it comes to where my vote will be going.




pahunkboy -> RE: Paper ballots this November? (8/7/2008 7:49:45 AM)

one can skip e-vote via absentee ballot. I do this... mainly due to injury in the past.

the machines are a huge waste of money.   how hard can it possible be to count?   I dont think the voting should be for 12 hours.

anyhow the machnes have too many flaws.    Maybe we can ship them to china.




kdsub -> RE: Paper ballots this November? (8/7/2008 8:08:10 AM)

We have had touch screen voting machines at my polling place for a few years. I find it hard to understand where the problems with them are.

Our machines have touch screen entry but they also print a paper ballot with your picture on it. They are quick accurate and simple to use.

Butch




Vendaval -> RE: Paper ballots this November? (8/7/2008 12:34:44 PM)

General reply -
 
Good points about paper vrs electronic and the need for a paper trail.
I am frustrated at the money spent on trying to improve the problem and achieving unsatisfactory results, so that we have to do this the old fashioned way after all.
 
An interesting article here about the security systems and the ease of hacking these machines -

 "Scientists’ Tests Hack Into Electronic Voting Machines in California and Elsewhere"  By Christopher DrewPublished: July 28, 2007  
"Matthew A. Bishop, a professor of computer science at the University of California, Davis, who led the team that tried to compromise the machines, said his group was surprised by how easy it was not only to pick the physical locks on the machines, but also to break through the software defenses meant to block intruders. 
Professor Bishop said that all the machines had problems and that one of the biggest was that the manufacturers appeared to have added the security measures after the basic systems had been designed.
 
By contrast, he said, the best way to create strong defenses is “to build security in from the design, in Phase 1.” "

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/28/us/28vote.html?fta=y




DomKen -> RE: Paper ballots this November? (8/7/2008 2:10:02 PM)

The strange thing about all this is the comapnies making these voting machines are mostly companies that make ATM's. So they clearly know how to make physically secure machines and how to produce software able to pass securitystandards in the financial industry but for some reason these voting machines have serious issues all over the place.

For instance I just heard about an issue with one of Diebold's systems that has an IDR port, a wireless infrared port commonly used for synching PDA's and the like to desktop computers. This port is behind a locked cover but instead right on the side of the machine. California is apparently telling any jurisdiction that uses this model to cover the port with tape. Can you imagine a bank tolerating an ATM with an exposed interface port of any kind?




bipolarber -> RE: Paper ballots this November? (8/7/2008 3:37:52 PM)

The problem with the companies that make these voting machines, and which program them, is that they are all owned by republicans.

They've already shown that they have no regaurd for the Constitution (the document that defines what it means to be American) Why would they have any problem with rigging an election on a large scale?

11 people are currently up on charges for stealing 41 million credit card numbers via electronic means... what's to keep the GOP from fucking with the election numbers just as easily? They've already proven themselves criminals time and time again. We're just supposed to trust these power mad shitheads who, by their own admitted design, sought to establish a "permanent majority?" (i.e. establish a one party system in America) With themselves irrevoccably at the top, voting public and will of the people be damned?!

Fuck that!

Add to this there seems to be no way to verify anything, once the vote is cast... no paper record that is any more verifiable than the electronic one.

I will be voting ahead of time, on paper. Hope you guys do too!

(Awaiting Als, Thads, and Celticlord's inevitable posts on how "unverifiable elections" are the TRUE American way of doing things, because McCain, Bush, Cheany and the rest of the rouges gallery at Fox Noise told them to.)




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