RE: Russia invades Georgia

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Thadius -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/12/2008 2:14:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RealityLicks I just checked and the pipeline has not been hit but closed as a precaution. After a week of fighting, I'm sure the Russians would have destroyed it if that was their intention. http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gksl3HsyKUWEkZZN2ZVD5TEhIi0g Although admittedly, many seem to be missing their aim just now. What purpose would be served by bombing the pipeline, anyway? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1043185/The-Pipeline-War-Russian-bear-goes-Wests-jugular.html Yeah, BP closed their pipeline today... saw that on one of the business flash reports. It moves a million barrels of oil a day, and whether the purpose is to prevent Georgia from making revenues on it, or something else, I have no clue. That is a question that will probably go unanswered.

RealityLicks -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/12/2008 2:14:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Thadius I wonder why Russia felt the need to put troops in what was still a Georgian territory, to flare up even more tensions. Because S. Ossetia has been self-governing since the Gorbachev era. Georgia found a new ally in the US and promptly decided it had the titanium gonads to amass military forces on the border. In went the Russian peacekeepers, to much sabre-rattling from both sides. To follow them in was Georgia's schoolboy error and... well, he who will not learn, let him feel.

cyberdude611 -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/12/2008 3:45:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: Outlaw85 there were lots of reasons for the iraq war, oil was was least of them. saddam offered oil to the united states at 13 dollars a barrel or something like that. look at gas prices. we haven't taken it. I don't entirely agree with the iraq war, but it was definately not for oil, we could have gotten it cheaper from saddam. The US invasion of Iraq, a sovereign nation takes away any moral authority the US has in criticizing Russia. Nope... Nice try though.... The US invasion of Iraq was authorized by the UN Security Council. That makes the operation legal. Iraq was also a dictatorship and not many people will shed a tear when a dictator falls. Russia on the other hand invaded a democratic nation without the approval of anyone. They never even attempted to solve the situation diplomatically. It's pure aggression. Russia is also moving in the wrong direction by limiting democracy in their own country. And Bush said he has talked to many leaders in Europe and the region and he said that Russia's standing in the world is now "substantially damaged." There is talk now about punishing Russia including throwing them out of the G-8 and barring entry to the World Trade Organization. If they can't behave with the rest of the civilized nations in the 21st century....then they wont be part of it. Pretty simple. Russia needs to grow up. This isn't 1981. And the cold war is over. The tide of international opinion is turning against Russia in this conflict. And that's why they suddenly decided to agree with a cease-fire. Putin can talk about Iraq and Kosovo all he wants....the world isn't buying his justification.

TheUtopian -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/12/2008 4:22:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 As for building missle pads and radars in Eastern Europe to "protect Europe" as an American Citizen and Taxpayer I certainly don't want to pay for that! Let the E.U. pay for it! And as for a "Coalition of the willing" by our "Allies" in Iraq, they were all PAID to be there! We couldn't even depend on our E.U. "Allies" to take care of Kosovo if it even needed to be "taken care of." Remember the Clinton catch phrases "Ethnic Cleansing" and "Peacekeepers?" Only the college kids working in "The Dorm" didn't know which ethnicity was being,....."cleansed." "We should avoid foreign entanglements." - George Washington- George Santayana was right. George Washington was right too! They are not NATO missile sites, they are American. The vast majority of Europeans don't want American missile sites in Poland or Czech, in fact most Poles and Czechs don't want them either. Why should we pay for something we don't want? Bingo!! And that's why I say the current tenant of Whitehouse and those who surround him are the true provocateurs..... They always have been. What's happening right now is far beyond a Neocon's imagination. I'll tell ya something else here Meat - that you won't read on collarme : If this thing escalates, and something happens where they need to '' re-institute '' the draft here America for manpower purposes - You will see an internal rebellion form here far beyond what most would ever be willing to admit. In the last few days.....I've really picked the brains of about seventy of my customers - and not a single one of them wants to/ or would fight with the Russians. - R

Sanity -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/12/2008 5:26:25 PM)
Politics and religion are two things people hate to be harassed about in public, so they're likely saying whatever they think you want to hear to just to get you out of their hair. quote: ORIGINAL: TheUtopian Bingo!! And that's why I say the current tenant of Whitehouse and those who surround him are the true provocateurs..... They always have been. What's happening right now is far beyond a Neocon's imagination. I'll tell ya something else here Meat - that you won't read on collarme : If this thing escalates, and something happens where they need to '' re-institute '' the draft here America for manpower purposes - You will see an internal rebellion form here far beyond what most would ever be willing to admit. In the last few days.....I've really picked the brains of about seventy of my customers - and not a single one of them wants to/ or would fight with the Russians. - R

TheUtopian -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/12/2008 5:40:11 PM)
quote: Politics and religion are two things people hate to be harassed about in public, so they're likely saying whatever they think you want to hear to just to get you out of their hair. That's a grossly simplistic supposition on your part....But of course that ties into my whole theory regards a neocon's imagination.... - R

cloudboy -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/12/2008 6:47:27 PM)
quote: Nope... Nice try though.... The US invasion of Iraq was authorized by the UN Security Council. That makes the operation legal. Iraq was also a dictatorship and not many people will shed a tear when a dictator falls. Russia on the other hand invaded a democratic nation without the approval of anyone. They never even attempted to solve the situation diplomatically. It's pure aggression. Russia is also moving in the wrong direction by limiting democracy in their own country. And Bush said he has talked to many leaders in Europe and the region and he said that Russia's standing in the world is now "substantially damaged." There is talk now about punishing Russia including throwing them out of the G-8 and barring entry to the World Trade Organization. If they can't behave with the rest of the civilized nations in the 21st century....then they wont be part of it. Pretty simple. Russia needs to grow up. This isn't 1981. And the cold war is over. The tide of international opinion is turning against Russia in this conflict. And that's why they suddenly decided to agree with a cease-fire. Putin can talk about Iraq and Kosovo all he wants....the world isn't buying his justification. Why do you presuppose Democracy is the best form of government for other nations, especially ones with no history or foundation for it? Next, the US invasion of IRAQ killed about 100,000 IRAQIs and created 2 Million refugees. We've been caught torturing innocent IRAQIs there. The armed conflict has lasted over five years. Next, the dictator whom we removed we helped install into power in the first place. Only when we lost control of him did he become an enemy of the US. Russia's action involves an immediate neighbor nation whose population has cultural ties to the former USSR and which has a large Russian speaking population. Also, Georgia is no kind of white knight democracy and suffers from tremendous corruption. I don't condone Russia's action, but the US has little room to pontificate here.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/12/2008 6:55:32 PM)
quote: Why do you presuppose Democracy is the best form of government for other nations, especially ones with no history or foundation for it? quote: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed... Democracy == consent of the governed.

cloudboy -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/12/2008 7:17:44 PM)
quote: Democracy == consent of the governed. There's a reason "Democracy" has never taken hold in Russia and China. Might you be able to think of the reasons why? To use the US experience as a barometer for other nations is a failure to appreciate historical and cultural differences. Even here in the US, one could put forth very strong arguments that "consent of the governed" is quite limited and in some cases no existent. One might also argue that giving ignorant, uneducated, rank and file citizens a say in government is a recipe for disaster.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/12/2008 7:35:55 PM)
quote: There's a reason "Democracy" has never taken hold in Russia and China. Might you be able to think of the reasons why? Sure. It's never been tried. Both nations went from monarchy to corrupt near-anarchy to marxist totalitarianism.

slvemike4u -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/12/2008 7:37:00 PM)
Actually cloudboy more than a few on the Founding Fathers did make the argument that giving ignorant, uneducated,rank and file citizens the right to vote was akin to mob rule...Adams himself thought the country should have a permanent "ruling class"

Outlaw85 -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/12/2008 8:28:38 PM)
hense why they have the electoral system. unfortunately he's right. a bunch of uneducated americans could not possibly know what was best for their country. Equally unfortunate is having the corrupt capitalist rich elite class that we have ruling the government the only real sollution is to eliminate the ingorance of us americans by providing a higher quality education, gee...that must be why our government doesn't spend so much money on education o.o it's a threat to the power and influence of our ruling familys. as I've said several times in this thread. I hate ALL governments >.<

cloudboy -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/12/2008 9:25:55 PM)
quote: Sure. It's never been tried. You haven't hit the history books.

slvemike4u -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/12/2008 9:40:13 PM)
Well,outlaw85 ours still seems to be the best form of government yet devised by man...even with it's flaws.The west needs to find a way to contain Putin's latest attempt to flex Russia's muscle,he is becoming increasingly belligerent.Saakashvili should not have taken the bait,but make no mistake this was Putin's game all along...the G-8 needs to become the G-7 and the EU should offer NATO membership to Georgia and Ukraine as soon as possible.Russia will have to learn to deal with independent neighbors...the day's of vassal states on her borders are done with and Putin needs to understand this..

cloudboy -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/12/2008 9:59:35 PM)
quote: EU should offer NATO membership to Georgia and Ukraine as soon as possible.Russia will have to learn to deal with independent neighbors...the day's of vassal states on her borders are done with and Putin needs to understand this.. O yeah, the EU should back Russia into a corner. That's a bright idea. No risk there.

cyberdude611 -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/12/2008 10:28:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy quote: EU should offer NATO membership to Georgia and Ukraine as soon as possible.Russia will have to learn to deal with independent neighbors...the day's of vassal states on her borders are done with and Putin needs to understand this.. O yeah, the EU should back Russia into a corner. That's a bright idea. No risk there. Russia is backing themselves in the corner all on their own. They dont need any help from the EU or NATO or the US to do it. They have yet to understand the former soviet republics (with the exception of maybe Belarus) do not want to be part of Russia's sphere of influence anymore. If you go to those countries, they hate Russia. They consider themselves to be independant and they are sick and tired of Russia treating them like buffer nations. So they want to go out and make these massive arms and trade deals with the west. Why? To piss off the Russian Federation. And it's working. It almost seems like an act of desperation on Russia's part. They see Georgia moving towards the west. They see Ukraine now asking to join NATO. They see the central asian republicans making deals with the United States. They see the United States putting missile interceptors in Poland. Moscow felt they had to do something. And I think they now realize they miscalculated. And I think this act will only further strength anti-Russian feelings in those former Soviet Republics. Russia needs to understand that the nations around them are independant countries and can do what they please. And until Russia understands that, we are going to continue to have conflicts like this.

Vendaval -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/12/2008 10:28:58 PM)
Any action that will cause further confusion and chaos can be used to an advantage; but the unintended consequences can also bite the agressor in the arse. [sm=pullit.gif] quote: ORIGINAL: RealityLicks What purpose would be served by bombing the pipeline, anyway?

slvemike4u -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/12/2008 10:36:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy quote: EU should offer NATO membership to Georgia and Ukraine as soon as possible.Russia will have to learn to deal with independent neighbors...the day's of vassal states on her borders are done with and Putin needs to understand this.. O yeah, the EU should back Russia into a corner. That's a bright idea. No risk there. So what do you suggest,allow Russia to subjugate sovereign nations while the EU and America does nothing.Let's not forget that Georgia has sent troops to Iraq and was intending to send troops to Afghanastan,they were willing to pay with blood to join NATO...

Outlaw85 -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/12/2008 11:54:01 PM)
quote: So what do you suggest,allow Russia to subjugate sovereign nations while the EU and America does nothing.Let's not forget that Georgia has sent troops to Iraq and was intending to send troops to Afghanastan,they were willing to pay with blood to join NATO... See, this is the biggest thing for me right there. They were willing to pay in blood, they showed their loyalty in blood. As Americans, we are BOUND, by all things sacred and decent in the world, to come to Georgia's aid. we have to. If people can't understand that then they don't know what honor is. if your friend risked his life for you, and then you turned your back on him when his life was in danger, you don't even have any business being alive, much less having friends. that's just morality.

meatcleaver -> RE: Russia invades Georgia (8/13/2008 12:57:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: Why do you presuppose Democracy is the best form of government for other nations, especially ones with no history or foundation for it? quote: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed... Democracy == consent of the governed. The American constitution, if you read it, is an ideological constitution that set out to protect the rights of the affluent few from the poor majority. Universal sufferage was never its intention and if you look at American politics today, it only pays lip service to democracy. The founding fathers might have been good with rhetoric but if you study them, they didn't mean what they said. Most were slave owners and just about all looked upon the ordinary citizen with disgust and had no intenetion of sharing power with them. America is not alone in this very limited democracy, that is the nature of western democracy. That is why Britain entered the illegal war in Iraq even though the majority of its citizens were against it. Like you, we may choose what car we drive but we are not deemed wise enough to say we don't want anything to do with an illegal war.

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