Weary of the "gottcha" politics

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Musicmystery -> Weary of the "gottcha" politics (8/8/2008 3:35:56 PM)
Not a Democrat or Republican or national or international or state or city or whatever position---just a general observation. I just don't care who sleeps with whom, for example, unless I'm one of the parties. I'm pretty sure we have more pressing issues. Speaks to character, OK, but in a world where governments think nothing of lying to their citizens, even killing them just to hold on to power, I again just don't care about sex scandals. 75% of married men admit to having affairs, 50% of married women---and this doesn't count unmarried people sleeping with married folk and, naturally, people who don't admit it. Nor do I care about who slipped up on what, who altered what position, who posted what youtube video, and whatever else people pile on to. Just for example---- Roughly 45% of people knew two years ago they'd vote for the Democratic candidates, and roughly 45% knew they'd vote for the Republican candidates. Whatever happens, those people are just looking for excuses to slam the opposition with the sound bite du jour, even knowing this will change no one's mind at all. The 10% in the middle will do the best they can, if they vote at all. And the rush to the media piece of the day only perpetuates the death of actual journalism that started a few decades back and is now institutionalized. This is not debate---it's blind pretense, fooling only those who embrace it. Somehow, I'm just more concerned about war, starvation, crime, social justice, disease--yeah, my priorities are messed up. Got three cents change for a nickel?

candystripper -> RE: Weary of the "gottcha" politics (8/8/2008 4:11:55 PM)
I tend to agree....even here we don't seem to listen to each other well. I keep telling people McCain is running ads slamming Obama while I rarely if ever see an Obama ad of any sort, but no one listens. People believe what they want. candystripper

pahunkboy -> RE: Weary of the "gottcha" politics (8/8/2008 4:30:57 PM)
it is distraction and entertainment. we actually PAY for a tv set, the electric to power it, the space to house it, which is insured and taxed, AND we PAY to receive the TV signal!! [which is taxed] We then sit thru 16 minutes of commercials an hour, endless promo and teasers- credits on the screen for 20 minutes an hour, the TV station logo which dances- AND pop ups on the TV screen- the Martha Steward figure say to push her show. We never get to nirvana because something special is coming up....ALWAYS So do not get comfy and enjoy NOW- because "they" need to tell ya. Factor in the subliminals- and the odd tones- which are meant to draw your attention in; consider that it IS your home- and the non-program is much louder in decibels then the program. You WILL hear this NOISE or else! Further you will pay over $40 a month for this. When it was pretty much free say 25 years ago. Why- cause you[and I] are an azzhole. You are there to be sold stuff to. Automatic debits on YOUR cards and if you mis-step endless HIGH fees. This costs YOU over $1 a day on the cable. Another $1 a day for electric/misc. Whats more is your time- which is only YOURS is robbed. You will never get back the 16 minutes an hour back- EVER. But now with TIVO- which you pay extra for- [like caller ID, call block and PAYING to received calls] then product placement will occur- right on the program. Now with all this- how is it the average joe- should see anything deeper then a Jerry Springer mode of "programing". The "gotcha" happens every day- to each of us on this board. Not only is YOUR time stolen from you, but relations with fellow HUMANs take a back seat due to the intrusiveness of technology. So add up- the Cable, the cell phone, the DSL, the phone, the prevailing credit interest rate on late payments, add in the taxes and surcharges. Then divide it per the day. That how you arrive at the $ amount that Gotcha! done did to YOU. See?

bipolarber -> RE: Weary of the "gottcha" politics (8/8/2008 7:09:26 PM)
Good overview, Pa... Although I think you left out ISP's and computer time... ? Also a HUGE waste of time, money and effort... all to listen to crap like what we get on here... and in the end, no one is enlightened, and no opinions are changed. And people wonder why I spend so much time just reading, and listening to CD's of classical music...

TheHeretic -> RE: Weary of the "gottcha" politics (8/8/2008 9:59:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Got three cents change for a nickel? Like we'll have that kind of money to throw around when Barry gets done with our collective paycheck... (I'm sorry. That was wrong. Just can't seem to help myself.) "Gotcha" is the game they play, Muse. If checkers was the game, we'd watch them play that, and try to puzzle out their intelligence and character that way. How well do they play? How quickly do they learn from mistakes? How do they compensate for a dumb move? Can they handle some pressure? I'd much prefer a system where they have to present actual ideas in a Lincoln-Douglas format. We don't have that, so I take up pragmatism. It is what it is. Same around here.

Vendaval -> RE: Weary of the "gottcha" politics (8/8/2008 11:33:43 PM)
Well stated, Musicmystery. I would much rather discuss the issues and the problems before us as a society and a species and potential solutions, than listen to endless personal attacks on the candidates and other forum members.

Musicmystery -> RE: Weary of the "gottcha" politics (8/9/2008 11:57:33 AM)
quote: "Gotcha" is the game they play, Muse. If checkers was the game, we'd watch them play that, and try to puzzle out their intelligence and character that way. How well do they play? How quickly do they learn from mistakes? How do they compensate for a dumb move? Can they handle some pressure? I'd much prefer a system where they have to present actual ideas in a Lincoln-Douglas format. Heretic, Yes, but not exactly the point. When's the last time anyone changed views because of a negative add, a bad story, or a youtube video? Instead, people who already knew what they would think grab it and repeat it as justification. Instead of rhetoric about campaign finance reform, I'd like to see political advertising banned. Most of that money gets dumped into TV ads, and it's pointless. Instead, let the campaigns write letters and columns. Let them follow pursuits that attract news reporters. Let them convince audiences to come hear them speak. Hell, let them write blogs. Then we'd have something of substance to discuss. Or at least it's worth a try--hard to see how it could be any worse.

TheHeretic -> RE: Weary of the "gottcha" politics (8/9/2008 12:58:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery When's the last time anyone changed views because of a negative add, a bad story, or a youtube video? When did the last one run? These things aren't about the settled base, it's the fickle middle they are fighting for, and if such methods didn't work, nobody would waste the money on them.

pahunkboy -> RE: Weary of the "gottcha" politics (8/9/2008 1:42:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bipolarber Good overview, Pa... Although I think you left out ISP's and computer time... ? Also a HUGE waste of time, money and effort... all to listen to crap like what we get on here... and in the end, no one is enlightened, and no opinions are changed. And people wonder why I spend so much time just reading, and listening to CD's of classical music... Hello- Actually I am looking for a ISP that takes money orders mailed. Not automatic deduct. I am tired of being to STUPID to work a debit or credit card- so I am phazing them out. Too expensive. :-) Any ideas? for an ISP???

slaveboyforyou -> RE: Weary of the "gottcha" politics (8/9/2008 3:26:02 PM)
quote: Yes, but not exactly the point. When's the last time anyone changed views because of a negative add, a bad story, or a youtube video? Instead, people who already knew what they would think grab it and repeat it as justification. Here's one for you. and another. and yet another. Negative campaigns and yellow journalism are not new. Mudslinging, gossip, lying, and appeals to fear have been a part of politics since men were sitting around a fire deciding who the new chief would be. If you don't like these ads, than change the channel. If you want more information, it's out there. Obama and McCain's record in the Senate are public information. The positions they take on issues is public info. It sounds to me like you're irritated that the apathetic of the world aren't being bottle fed info, so they can live up to your standards of an informed world view. A lot of people don't give a shit about this race or any race, and they never will.....Get over it.

Musicmystery -> RE: Weary of the "gottcha" politics (8/9/2008 6:45:13 PM)
Obviously, yellow journalism isn't new. But in historic terms, television is. Clearly, the mantra is that negative ads work. But HOW do they work? Again, has anyone here ever talked to someone who switched sides over an ad? I doubt it. Instead, the negative spin is to get people to the polls to vote against, rather than voters stepping forward to vote for. Hell, we can see that just on these discussion boards. Without the ads, candidates would have to inspire voters, not scare them on single issues (and there's no worse way to vote than pretending that governance is only about a single issue). Politicians saw the reach of television. Television saw the revenue. The rest is nonsense. And seriously, if a candidate's only (or main) selling point is "watch out for this other guy," then it's really rather pathetic. Especially since the public not only tolerates it but also buys it.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Weary of the "gottcha" politics (8/9/2008 6:54:44 PM)
quote: Clearly, the mantra is that negative ads work. But HOW do they work? Again, has anyone here ever talked to someone who switched sides over an ad? They work because they set the agenda and frame the discussion. As a candidate, I want my opponent talking about the things about which I want to talk. If I'm strong on the economy, I want him talking about the economy. If I'm strong on moral/character issues, I want him talking about moral and character issues. If I'm strong on experience, I want him talking about experience. The negative ad is the offensive weapon of the political arsenal. It demands response. It cannot be ignored. As Sun Tzu observed in The Art of War, to win a battle you fight on ground of your choosing, not of your opponent's. Negative ads are how candidates choose their battlefields.

slaveboyforyou -> RE: Weary of the "gottcha" politics (8/9/2008 7:32:04 PM)
quote: Without the ads, candidates would have to inspire voters, not scare them on single issues (and there's no worse way to vote than pretending that governance is only about a single issue). Without the ads, candidates probably wouldn't reach 50% of voters. I'm being kind with that percentage estimate too. The majority of people in this country do not follow politics closely and they never will. Hell, the majority of people in the world don't follow politics. In survey after survey you have people that can't tell you the names of the 3 branches of the federal gov't. and/or what they do, how many senators each state has, how many representatives their own state has, etc, etc. It's not because they haven't been told this information. We have compulsory education in this country and a high literacy rate. It's because the majority of people don't care, and it's not because of television. Television and the internet are just the newer information mediums. Before that you had newspapers and magazines with the same fluff in them. All the major newspapers started printing gossip columns, true crime stories, and sensational stories about political scandal at the end of the 19th Century. Do you know why that is? It's because they had new customers they had to cater to. The new prevalence of public schools and mass literacy sent these new customers to them. These new people were factory workers, farmers, domestics and so on. They weren't intellectuals. They wouldn't have bought those newspapers if the fluff wasn't there. Likewise, they wouldn't listen to a politician drone on about international politics, economics, and military science. None of that has changed today. The majority of people can't be inspired by politicians with an approach like you mention. You can't inspire the blissfully ignorant; they are too busy watching American Idol.

pahunkboy -> RE: Weary of the "gottcha" politics (8/9/2008 7:39:29 PM)
negative ads work. therefor they will continue. revenue. hmm. we the people OWN the airwaves. so much for "ownership"

Vendaval -> RE: Weary of the "gottcha" politics (8/10/2008 1:33:55 AM)
No doubt you are familiar with his writings, Music Mystery, but this bears repeating here in regards to the discussion. "On "The Medium is the Message"" "Each medium, independent of the content it mediates, has its own intrinsic effects which are its unique message. The message of any medium or technology is the change of scale or pace or pattern that it introduces into human affairs. The railway did not introduce movement or transportation or wheel or road into human society, but it accelerated and enlarged the scale of previous human functions, creating totally new kinds of cities and new kinds of work and leisure. This happened whether the railway functioned in a tropical or northern environment, and is quite independent of the freight or content of the railway medium. (Understanding Media, N. Y., 1964, p. 8) What McLuhan writes about the railroad applies with equal validity to the media of print, television, computers and now the Internet. "The medium is the message" because it is the "medium that shapes and controls the scale and form of human association and action." (p. 9)" http://www.marshallmcluhan.com/faqs.html

Musicmystery -> RE: Weary of the "gottcha" politics (8/10/2008 10:46:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: Clearly, the mantra is that negative ads work. But HOW do they work? Again, has anyone here ever talked to someone who switched sides over an ad? They work because they set the agenda and frame the discussion. As a candidate, I want my opponent talking about the things about which I want to talk. If I'm strong on the economy, I want him talking about the economy. If I'm strong on moral/character issues, I want him talking about moral and character issues. If I'm strong on experience, I want him talking about experience. The negative ad is the offensive weapon of the political arsenal. It demands response. It cannot be ignored. As Sun Tzu observed in The Art of War, to win a battle you fight on ground of your choosing, not of your opponent's. Negative ads are how candidates choose their battlefields. Hi celtic, As much as I like the image of Sun Tzu's philosophy guiding such matters, these are not simple, but complex transactions (meaning that a second layer of parties makes the decisions). This is not a chess match between two political candidates. It's not two men facing off with spears in a field (or even leading armies of men), because it matter who "wins," it's not over---the voters decide that. Stephan Douglas won the debates; Abraham Lincoln won the presidency. Negative ads DO "frame the debate," but not between the candidates. In fact, they lead to nothing whatsoever resembling debate between the candidates. Rather, such ads are designed to frame the debate around the water cooler--i.e., to manipulate voter debate by limiting the discussion and "poisoning the well" (the logical fallacy). Thus, they work to the extent that they can steer undecided voters (they can, of course, also backfire). If candidates focused on speaking to their strengths (as you explain it), we'd be in much healthier territory, as then we'd be voting FOR, not against. But the "gottcha" stuff doesn't even rise to the level of negative ads. These swipes serve only one purpose---to energize voters to get out and vote against one's opponent. Sad, really--this emphasizes (apparently, correctly) the mere sheeplike tendency of many voters, and stressess (at least by implication) that the candidates have nothing going for them other than not being the other guy. No womder people have a dim view of politics and candidates. Look at McCain---long time in the Senate, and he's running against Obama as Paris Hilton. I don't want to trash the guy, but if that's his strong suit, he definitely shouldn't be president. While no saint either, that's part of what I like about Obama--he ran the primary with the understanding that after winning, the candidate would need those voters (unlike Hillary's scorched earth campaign). And while the nature of U.S. politics works against this, I can see him running his presidential campaign with the understanding that the guy who wins will need to lead the country (vs. Goerge W. Bush coming in under a cloud). People complain about how campaigns are run, and yet the same people contribute to the lowest common denominator with the persistant barrage of gottcha "SEE? It's he an idiot?" I, for one, would be far more interested in reading serious pieces about why I should vote for someone else based on that person's strengths. For example, I'd have seriously considered voting for Ron Paul. My question, though, wasn't about negative campaigning generally, but about the gottcha moments. I can't seriously believe those moments have ever changed anyone's mind. Instead, just another log on the fire.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Weary of the "gottcha" politics (8/10/2008 11:43:50 AM)
quote: Look at McCain---long time in the Senate, and he's running against Obama as Paris Hilton. I don't want to trash the guy, but if that's his strong suit, he definitely shouldn't be president. You're looking at the tactic backwards. Consider the potential range of responses from Obama: 1. Outrage (Obama's actual choice) -- He comes across as thin-skinned, easily offended, touchy, even a tad capricious and mercurial. McCain threw some bait in the water and Obama bit down hard. 2. Dismissal -- possibly works, but when Kerry tried this in '04, Bush kept piling on the attacks until Kerry looked weak, fumbling, and un-Presidential. No one--not even the most ardent Democrat--wants a President who's afraid to hit back. 3. Defense -- Obama might have attempted to prove McCain wrong by articulating all the things of substance he has done during his political career--which is essentially a debate on who has the better resume, and McCain was a two-term Senator before Obama even ran for elective office. Arguing resumes will never work for Obama--he simply doesn't have one. 4. Offense -- What Obama should have done is made public apology to Paris Hilton for getting pulled into the contest. The charge could have been made that the comparison was an ungentlemanly slam on Paris Hilton herself. By issuing an apology on behalf of both McCain and himself, Obama would have taken an effective high road while refusing to give McCain an opening to debate experience. So, from the tactical perspective, if I want the debate to be about experience and accomplishment, an Obama-Hilton analogy is exactly the sort of ad I want to put out there. It's not a slam dunk, but it is a strong opening gambit that has a good possibility of opening up Obama's defenses.

celticlord2112 -> RE: Weary of the "gottcha" politics (8/10/2008 11:48:11 AM)
quote: My question, though, wasn't about negative campaigning generally, but about the gottcha moments. I can't seriously believe those moments have ever changed anyone's mind. Instead, just another log on the fire. Taken in isolation, there are few moments that ever change people's minds, particularly about politics. It is the cumulative effect of all moments, "gotcha" and otherwise, that ultimately carry the persuasive weight. The "gotcha" moments are opportunities for one side or another to develop an opening in the other's defenses and exploit it--to pull or push the debate along a different tangent than before. That is all they are; they are not the be-all, end-all of political campaigns.

pahunkboy -> RE: Weary of the "gottcha" politics (8/10/2008 11:56:43 AM)
I do not think Obama will win because he is not causaion. sorry, but a portion of the US will never see past skin color. as to his line of reasoning- I CAN follow is and prefer his reason to the fuzzy reason on McCain. Bush is seldom on a logical line of reasioing as well. Now as to "Change" - to that I say BULL SHIT! it isnt change - both parties seek to continue "empire"- the only candidate who is for as azzhole peon, that walks the walk is Ron Paul. THINK. EMPIRE. thats the gist of the election choice!!!!

Musicmystery -> RE: Weary of the "gottcha" politics (8/10/2008 11:57:28 AM)
My friend, all this comes back to the same point, though---scoring a short term point at the expense of long term policy. That it sometimes works is not a selling point. And so I remain weary.

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